Career Relaunch 4x683j

Leaving a corporate job behind to start your own business is never as straightforward or simple as it may seem. Norma Kimber, an operational excellence director at an established, global financial services firm who pivoted to become a virtual assistant and business owner shares her journey of walking away from her stable, senior role in the corporate world to start her own business. In episode 86 of the Career Relaunch® podcast, we also discuss what impact organizational politics can have on your psyche and the relationship between your own health and your career decisions. Norma and I have crossed paths a few times in the past because she’s ed some of my virtual firesides, and I’ve also personally chatted with her about some of her virtual assistance services when I was exploring the idea of hiring a virtual assistant myself. She shares some of the realities of not only leaving a full-time job behind but also the impact it can have on your psyche when your spouse still works at the well-known, global company you left behind while you try to build your own business from the ground up. Key Career Takeaways When you’re in a corporate environment, it’s very natural and almost expected to keep up with your peers and climb the corporate ladder. Consider how much you thrive on or get disillusioned by the politics of your organization. Delegate a task when doing it detracts from your ability to focus on what you’re uniquely good at or from  your income-generating tasks. Finding the right assistance isn’t about identifying someone who not only has the skills necessary to do the job but also a work style and approach that clicks with you. Tweetables to Share Find the right people to you, and ask for help when you need it. Norma Kimber Tweet This Hiring the right people to help you is an investment that often pays off. Joseph Liu Tweet This Freelancer Resources Mentioned Virtual Assistance: check out Norma’s profile on Pink Spaghetti. Business tasks & projects: I use Upwork (for longer-term projects) and Fiverr (for simple executional tasks). I’ve also used Squadhelp for naming ideas and Crowdspring, 99Designs, and DesignCrowd to crowdsource creative assets. In-person help: I’ve used Taskrabbit for help with tasks that require in-person assistance. Task list management: I use ToDoIst. Scheduling, I use OnceHub. Social media management: I use Vista Social to manage all my social media s in one place. I’ve used Buffer and Later in the past too. (note, links above) Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I challenged you to think about one time consuming task you’ve been doing that detracts from your ability to focus on one of your other professional or personal priorities. Or something you feel someone else could just do more effectively and more efficiently. Delegate it. This way, you can can take that time and instead focus on something you’re uniquely positioned to do. About Norma Kimber, Virtual Assistant & Business Owner Norma Kimber is a business owner and virtual assistant. After a varied start to her career, including office management and ing software management, she moved to Brighton, England in 2003. Then, a couple years later, she started a 16-year career at an international financial services company, initially as an executive assistant. She took on several internal roles and promotions and ended her corporate career as a Director of Operational Excellence. She then left the corporate world behind to start her own VA business as a Pink Spaghetti franchisee. Follow Norma on Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare,  Tweet to let me and Norma know! Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow Career Relaunch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android to automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow Career Relaunch on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!  Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to Harmoni for ing the Career Relaunch® podcast Thanks to Harmoni Design for ing this episode of the Career Relaunch® podcast. The Harmoni Standing Desk offers a smarter, healthier way to work with its simple design that fits into any workspace. It’s the standing desk I’ve used myself since 2020, and Career Relaunch® podcast listeners can get 15% off any Harmoni order by visiting CareerRelaunch.net/Harmoni and using discount code RELAUNCH when you check out. Interview Segment Music Credits Thanks to Reeve for producing the music in this episode. Episode Interview Transcript Teaser (first ~15s): You do lose a lot of your identity when you move away from an organization, especially if you’ve been in one place for a very long time. Then, when you move out of that and you’re suddenly just on your own, and it’s just about you and the services you can offer, it is kind of a scary place. Joseph: Hello, Norma. Welcome to the Career Relaunch podcast. It is great to have you on the show. Norma: [02:26] Hi, Joseph. Thank you for having me. I’m very happy to be here. Joseph: I would love to talk with you first about just setting the scene and getting a sense from you of what is keeping you busy in your work and in your life these days. Norma: [02:40] In my life, these days, my almost two-year-old is what keeps me most busy, I think as most people with small children would appreciate. Then, with work, I have fairly recently started my own business. Building that up is my main focus at the moment from a work perspective. Joseph: I am also the parent of a very young child, and I’m just wondering what’s that balance been like for you between running your own business and also, motherhood. Norma: [03:10] It’s fairly challenging to manage a small child and starting a business. But it all came about at the right time because I think it would have been far harder to try and manage a corporate career with a small child. At least, I’m only answering to myself and my very selective clients, as opposed to the corporate organization that probably doesn’t have that much sympathy for a small child needing your attention. Joseph: I can relate to the idea of the flexibility being invaluable once you become a parent and being able to control your own schedule. Also, can you just tell me where are you based and where are you originally from? Norma: [03:56] I’m based in the UK in Brighton of South London. I’m originally from South Africa, but I have moved here in 2003. It’s almost been 20 years that I’ve been in the UK. Joseph: What originally brought you to the UK from South Africa? Norma: [04:12] I was very interested in traveling in Europe. Europe is far away from South Africa. At the time, when I came over, we had a working holiday visa scheme. I was lucky enough to be able to come over on that. The intention was to stay for two years, see a bit of Europe, and then, probably, head back to South Africa. But I met my husband here not long after, probably about three months after arriving here. I just got stuck here. Joseph: It does happen. Before we go back in time, could you give me a snapshot of the work that you’re doing right now at Pink Spaghetti? We will get into more details on that later. Just real quickly, what’s an average day for you right now? Norma: [04:57] It’s very varied. That’s actually what really attracts me to this type of role. So it’s a virtual assistant services business. Every day looks really different depending on what my clients effectively have on. It range from having a day of research or networking or general istration, sometimes, calls, luckily, not too many calls. Every day looks different, which is really what keeps me interested in doing it. Joseph: We’re going to come back to the VA work, the virtual assistant work that you do. I would love to get into more details on the exact types of tasks you help people with. Before we do that, I know you haven’t always been a business owner, and you haven’t always been a virtual assistant. You spent 16 years working in the financial services industry. So I was wondering if you could tell me how you got started in that industry. Norma: [05:50] I fell into it, more than anything else. When I moved over to the UK, the intention was, as on the two-year working holiday visa, to do fairly limited work and do traveling. The intention was really to end up going back, of course. At the time, when I started there, I didn’t have a clear idea of what I wanted to do. I started initially as a temp, doing call center work. Then, when I was hired as a full-time employee, I started as an executive assistant. It’s kind of gone full circle a little bit. Then, I just worked my way up really through the business. I moved from being a virtual assistant into a re-engineering type role, doing a fair bit of training on Six Sigma process engineering type activity in the services industry, and then, from there, eventually, ended up in operational risk management. It was just a case of being there. Initially, I was very happy there. It was an exciting place to be because a lot is going on in the financial services industry. I got to see a lot of the world traveling and lots of exciting things happened in my career in the financial services industry. It was never really thought through or planned that way. I kind of fell into it and then, seemed to do pretty well, and then, just kind of carried on from there. It was kind of more luck than anything else. Joseph: You kind of just, I guess, climb to the corporate ladder, for lack of a better term. Then, you eventually became director of operational excellence at your company. What was that corporate life like for you when you were at director level in a large multinational corporation? Could you just give me a sense of what your day-to-day experience was in that role? Norma: [07:38] I would say what I liked about doing that role was having teams of people to manage. So I love working with people and working with my teams. Being a team manager was something that I thoroughly enjoyed. Most of my time though, I would say, in the latter part of my career, was spent on phone calls. When we eventually had to work from home with COVID, it wasn’t much of a transition because we all did a fair bit of flexible and hybrid working in the organization. Even if we did go into the office, I would spend, predominantly, my day mostly just on the phone talking to various people. Joseph: Team or clients or suppliers? Norma: [08:20] Team . It was all pretty much internal. So it would be internal. I think this was part of the reason why I eventually left. One of the many, many reasons was that you would end up spending phone call off the phone call, talking about meetings that you were going to have or meetings that you did have. It was mostly just talking about meetings all the time or talking about things that should get done, but very little in of actual work that I did myself within the last few roles that I held. Much of it was coordination and problem solving with other teams internally and making sure that they were delivering on projects that they had to deliver. At the end of the day, really, in of what I achieved or delivered myself, it was very, very minimal. I just spent most of my time on the phone talking to people what they should do or should have done. That was pretty much my life. Joseph: You and I have spoken a few times before. I think you know that I spent about a decade myself working in the corporate world. Did you find that the work you did earlier on in your career, in more junior roles, was more focused on the work itself, compared to when you were at a more senior director level, where it can be a bit more about stakeholder management or internal alignment building or as you put it, meetings about meetings. Maybe that’s a bit of a leading question, but did you have that experience at all? Norma: [09:50] Absolutely. In hindsight, I do ask myself sometimes whether I would have taken a promotion when it was offered to me at the time, because, of course, as you’re going into a career you do want to progress, you do want to climb the corporate ladder when you’re in a corporate environment. You want to do better in comparing yourself with peers, you want to comparatively do well. It was something in the early part of my career that I wanted to do and push myself to get as far as I could. What I did find more rewarding was when I was actually in more junior roles and could deliver results. You could deliver projects and be able for, to an effect, your destiny, and your deliverables because actually, it was just much more about doing things and getting things done. As you get more senior, you do just manage stakeholders. It does just feel like you remove a conductor in some respects, as opposed to actually delivering anything. Some of that is fairly rewarding, but I do think that you get to a point where it doesn’t feel like you ever really get that sense of achievement as much. I certainly didn’t feel that way, because I do thrive from seeing actual results. If you’re ending up just helping people or pointing their signposting and pointing them in the right direction, it’s easy to lose that kind of sense of really being able to make a difference or deliver anything of substance. Joseph: That makes a lot of sense. I definitely can relate to pretty much everything you just said, where I felt like at more junior levels, oddly enough, although they always encourage you to get promoted and to advance in the organization, I found those roles too, at times, be more rewarding and satisfying because I was doing stuff, rather than just managing the opinions of others. How did you come to your decision to eventually depart? Norma: [11:37] I mean, I’ve been thinking for years that I would like to have my own business. The sticking point for me was always in doing what. So I had this idea that I did want to have my own business but just could not think of the idea. I was kind of waiting for this great idea to hit me at some point so that I could start my own business. Joseph: What was it about starting your own business that was appealing to you? Norma: I think just having the autonomy of making their own decisions for yourself in of where you want to head and not necessarily having to answer to somebody else. The one thing that, from a corporate perspective, really negatively impacted me was politics. Politics is just not something I cope with very well at all. I managed okay in some respects, I would say. I, actually, probably, didn’t in very many other ways. I didn’t get on with it. I did not enjoy it. I, not for a second, enjoyed politics within the corporate environment. For a long time, I thought this is just really not the place for me. So I just knew that I needed to probably do something else. So having that autonomy and actually, just being really in charge of your destiny to an extent was something that drew me to having my own business. Thinking about that big idea that people think that they should have when they start their own business or something truly unique was the thing that helped me back because I wasn’t sure what that might be. I grappled with that for a very, very long time, before I decided to, then, eventually make the move. I think much like very, many other people, so I’m not unique in this space at all, when I had my daughter in 2020, I was, right when we were in the pandemic, of course, as well, I knew that once I went back to a corporate career, I probably would want to make that shift fairly soon after that. Unfortunately, a few things happened, of course, in 2020 and 2021 that made me push to make that change. We had the pandemic and that focused a lot of people’s minds on what they wanted to do with their lives because we all had this focus on what could happen. Unfortunately, January last year, I lost two very good friends in a fatal car accident. Along with that, and wanting to also make sure that I’m a good role model for my daughter because I wanted my daughter to feel, grow up thinking anything’s possible. She really can do something that she enjoys. So I wanted to be a good role model for her. I just thought staying in that corporate career with so many things showing me that life is short and life, you really should value life, and wanting to be a great role model for my daughter, I decided that it was just a time for me to go. I couldn’t put up with a career anymore that was making me very unhappy at that point. Joseph: Would you mind just taking me back to that moment, because you mentioned you lost two friends in a fatal car accident? What exactly happened? What was running through your head after you found out that they ed away? Norma: [14:50] It’s pretty horrific. I haven’t talked about it much, so it still feels very raw. Two very good school friends of mine, they were in the car together. They were a couple. We grew up together. The school that we’ve been to in that area is a very foggy area. I mean, visibility is pretty terrible then. I’m surprised there’s not more accidents, even though there are a lot. Joseph: This is in South Africa. Norma: [15:13] In South Africa. They drove into the back of a big a truck. It was a horrific shock because we were so focused on COVID at the time. We were kind of expecting people to get COVID and possibly, away from COVID. They both had it not long before that and came out the other side of it. We were so relieved. Then, together, this happened. It was a big shock. After that, I wasn’t recovered from that yet. Maybe it was stress as well but had a big health scare as well, just not long after that, and at the same time, was returning to work from maternity leave. Frankly, the treatment from a corporate perspective, when you’re going through a lot of stuff like that, like returning from maternity leave, is the big, big thing. I think a lot of people underestimate what it’s like coming back after a year and having your whole life turned upside down, even if it’s something that you wanted. Then, these other things happening, as well as the health scare that I had, yeah, it was quite shocking how little room there is for people to be people, and for people to go through things within an organization the size of the one that I was in. They all put it into sharp focus for me, that I just didn’t want to be in a place where I was just effectively a number, that would be treated the way that I was with all of this stuff going on, on top of previously thinking it, probably, was time for me to go anyway. Joseph: It sounds like a lot is going on there, Norma. You’ve got the birth of your first child. You’ve got COVID. You’ve got a health scare. A couple of your very good friends were killed in a car accident. At what point did you make the leap to leave? Do you that day when you made that decision? Norma: [17:04] It was February last year, about two or three weeks after this car accident, which I, then, decided this is time that I need to go. I thought I would give myself a year at that point to kind of spend a year saving a bit of money, and thinking through what’s next for me. At that point in time, I was pretty determined that I would stick it out for a year or year to 18 months, probably. Then, I got the health scare. So I was back at work from March for two months. Then, I had to take time off. So I was, then, off effectively for pretty much the rest of the year. As I was thinking about what else to do, that’s when the idea came to start this business, I just needed something that could be more flexible and something where I had a bit more control over things. I decided pretty much by July time last year, I decided that it was time to hand in my exit soon, which I, then, did by November last year. So it’s all pretty recent, still. Joseph: What exactly was the health scare, if you don’t mind talking in more detail about that? Because I know you’ve mentioned it a couple of times. It sounds like it had a big impact on how you were thinking about your own life and what you wanted. Norma: [18:20] It was a condition called adenomyosis, which is a form of endometriosis. I think people are probably more familiar with that term. It is slightly different, where the cells grow. It’s caused me to hemorrhage. I had extreme bleeding for about three months in the end, where I thought I had probably something like uterine cancer. I just come to to the fact that well, I just had my baby not long before that. We had tried for several years through many successful rounds of IVF to conceive her. It was a really big turning point for me because I just thought, “I’ve just had my baby. Now, I’m going to die. I’m going to leave her without a mother.” It was a pretty big thing. Thankfully, all of the tests came back negative. It was, I say just, adenomyosis. It’s pretty terrible condition as well, but it’s, at least, not what I thought might be uterine cancer at the time. It seems to be okay now and manageable now. Joseph: Thanks for sharing that. I’m glad you’ve made a full recovery. If it’s okay with you, I’d like to kind of shift gears now and talk a little bit about the actual shift to doing your work as a VA and as a business owner at Pink Spaghetti. I know you mentioned before that you knew you wanted to be self-employed, you wanted to run your own business, you want to be a business owner. How did that idea come up for you going from not knowing what you wanted to do to “Hey, I’m going to look into VA work”? Norma: [19:57] It was actually a friend of mine that suggested it. At the time, I thought, “If I can’t think of my own thing to do, what I might do is just do something part-time.” I thought the full-time hustle of being on the phone all the time just does not work. I started putting feelings out and followed a Facebook group to look for flexible work. On this Facebook group, Pink Spaghetti was advertising for more franchisees. I thought this really looked like a great opportunity to me, because not only can you get to start your own business, but as a franchise, and I don’t think all franchises are equal, but as a franchise, you also get sufficient help to get you to set the business up. You’re not starting from scratch, because I was pretty terrified about starting my own business and, after 16 years in a corporate environment, really have no clue about where to start. I kind of weighed up that I could probably start my own thing of some description. I just needed to decide what that was and really kind of struggled to find my way around how to go about setting up a business and how to manage a business. Then, when this franchise opportunity showed up, I just thought this is the kind of perfect side of both worlds because it allows me to set my own business up and give me that autonomy and be able to run my own thing, plus get from a fantastic organization, who will show me the ropes effectively and be there from an ongoing perspective as well, to provide , as and when needed. It’s almost like buying a business in a box effectively because you’re not, you’re not starting from scratch. It’s all there. The branding is there. The business model is determined. It does give you enough flexibility to do your own thing as well. So it just kind of popped up on a Facebook feed. I just thought this just looks perfect to me because it will give me kind of a bit of everything that I want. Joseph: This is fairly recent. We’re recording this in spring of 2022. It sounds like this kind of came to its inception late 2021. How’s the journey been for you so far? What’s the good, bad, and the ugly? Norma: [22:02] So far, it’s been great. I mean, I say great, but it’s when you start your own business, there’s always some downsides as well. So far, it’s been great. The franchise that I brought into Pink Spaghetti has just been wonderful. I mean, the training has been phenomenal. The ongoing is phenomenal as well. It’s absolutely the right decision for me. It’s tough as well because as you’re starting, I think you’ve spoken about this on your previous podcast as well, is that you do lose a lot of your identity when you move away from an organization, especially if you’ve been in one place for a very long time. If you leave a large organization, then people, of course, associate you with that and that becomes part of your identity. It’s recognizable. So if you tell people where you’re from and what you do, it is fairly recognizable. People understand kind of which box to put you in. When you move out of that and you’re suddenly just on your own, and it’s just about you and the services you can offer, it is kind of a scary place and especially if people, then, start saying when you start developing new business and people keep telling you, “No,” then, it can feel really hard initially, when you just hear, “No,” all the time. You’re like, “What is it? Is it my business? Is it me?” then, it’s all these self-questioning and all the imposter syndrome that comes with that is tough to deal with. That’s been a little bit hard. I would say that I think I’ve come out of the other side of that. I have a great set of clients who I love working with, and things have just become a bit easier. If I do have a moment where I just feel like I don’t know what I’m doing, or I feel a little bit lost in some way, then, I call up the franchise folks who have this great team, and they always help. It’s been, mostly up so far. I’m enjoying it pretty much all the time. So that’s great. Joseph: You mentioned the franchise model a few times, Norma. For somebody who’s listening to this, if they’re not familiar with the idea of franchising, how exactly does it work? My rudimentary understanding of franchising is that they, as you mentioned, give you the tools to get your business started. They’re also helping you with things like marketing. They’re giving you some maybe formulas that work well to get the business going. Maybe you do a bit of, maybe, revenue sharing. How does it work with Pink Spaghetti? What’s the model there? Norma: [24:27] I think it varies a little bit by franchise. Of course, I can’t speak for all franchises, but effectively, you will buy into the brand. The branding is something that you get to use. As you say, so you pay them an upfront fee, so, effectively, purchasing the rights to the Pink Spaghetti. Particularly, you purchase the rights to a specific area that you’re about to network in. Then, you will pay an ongoing fee as well based on the revenue that you take each month. In return for that, they provide a whole set of marketing materials, as well as training and ongoing on an ongoing basis. So it’s pretty straightforward. The great thing about this franchise is that we have flexibility to be creative within your own space. So they give you the framework effectively, and there are, of course, some guidelines that you need to follow. At the same time, you do get a fair bit of flexibility. If you bought something like a McDonald’s franchise, then, I imagine you won’t get a lot of flexibility because it’s very, very clearly defined and well-restricted about what you can and can’t. Joseph: Can’t make your own burgers there, right? Yeah. Norma: [25:33] Of course. Yeah. With our business, you are very much allowed to make your own burgers. Joseph: It sounds like the best of both worlds as I hear about it more. The franchise model, it does seem like you get a blend of autonomy, you get some , you’re not completely on your own, but you also have some independence. Related to the actual virtual assistant work, I also got to ask you, Norma, as someone myself, and I think you and I have spoken about this before, who struggles to delegate and carve off tasks, especially when it relates to the business that I’ve worked hard to build, can you explain how someone can tell if they could benefit by hiring a virtual assistant? Norma: [26:17] Yes. I think if you can sit down and think about everything that you’re doing at the moment that you either don’t have time for, which is the starting point, I think, for very many people is just the things that are always on your to-do list, and you just don’t get to do them. That’s probably the starting point. Then, the second part of that equation is probably the stuff that you do, but you just hate doing it. Because we all, as business owners, including me, have a whole bunch of things that we just think, I really could just do without doing this because it’s taking you away from the things that you’re good at. So for example, if you have a business that is, let’s say, a PR company. The stuff that you do that’s going to bring your income and be your talents is doing the actual PR work. There’s a whole bunch of business-related work that is not going to be the stuff that brings you income or joy or add value to your clients. So I would start with that as a list of things that you could probably hand to someone else. Then, I think the second part of your question that you mentioned there, Joseph, is about letting go a bit of the control piece. I think from a control perspective, it is probably starting, I would say, two things, probably. It’s find the right person for you because all VAs are not equal because different VAs have different skill sets and different talents. Some’s specialized, some are more generalist. The second bit to that piece is that you have to make sure you find someone that works very well with you. I think communication is the most key part of this. If you get somebody that you get on well with, you can have an open conversation with. If stuff doesn’t work or works well, then, that’s a good starting point, because ultimately, you want to be able to have such a good relationship that you are able to give them something. If it doesn’t go right, then, you can have a conversation about why you want it a different way. I think start small. It’s probably the last bit of advice that I would say. Pick something that you feel. If this goes a little bit wrong, it’s probably not the end of the world. Get a feel for each other and see how it goes. Then, build up from there. That’s typically how I think unless somebody’s experienced in outsourcing work, then, I would say just start small, so that you start getting more comfortable and also, start working out the relationship and making sure that you’re all clear about how to communicate with each other on how to get things done, and so on. That would be my advice. Joseph: I’m just going through my list of things, as your invoicing came to mind for me. Very interesting. Norma: [28.57] You’re not alone. It’s on very many people’s lists. Joseph: Before we talk about some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way, I understand your spouse still works, not only in the industry but also at the firm, where you used to work. What’s it been like to, I guess, leave the corporate world behind, have a spouse who’s still in the corporate world, and be trying to build your own business? Does that ever enter into your psyche at all? Norma: [29:26] It very much does. So he’s worked there a little bit longer than I have, actually now. He is still there. Luckily, he is incredibly ive to me in my journey and the changes that I wanted to make. So that’s very helpful and very interested in what I do. So if I do need a second pair of eyes on anything, he’s always very willing to help me. I’m really lucky from that perspective. What is interesting for me, though, about the fact that he still is there is that I often hear some of the things that are going on because we have conversations about people moving or changes and all of those kind of things, obviously, nothing under NDA, but if there’s anything in of the organizational changes or movement of people and all of those kind of things, and it just makes me, I would say that he’s happy, that he’s very happy there. I think there’s a major difference between where he is and where I was. When he talks about it, it just makes me feel incredibly grateful that I was able to make this change, because it has just put into sharp focus for me that that is not where I want to be. It’s two-sided because sometimes, there will also be some of the really good things that come with corporate life that I will, then, think about, that I miss and that I have to start from scratch by myself to make sure that I get to a place where he was, because particularly when it’s time for bonuses, and I’m like, “Oh, that.” Joseph: You don’t get those. Norma: [30:56] Nice bonus that I would have had. Now, I don’t have that. So I just need to work a little bit harder if I want to get more money. It’s an interesting place to be, but, for the most part, I’m just infinitely grateful that I’ve been able to make the change. Joseph: Well, the last thing I want to talk about before we wrap up here, Norma, is just your journey and what you’ve learned along the way of your career change journey. First, I was wondering, have there been any major surprises for you along the way as you’ve shifted from the corporate world to self-employment, as you’ve shifted from financial services to VA work, just anything that has surprised you? Norma: I think a few things have surprised me, I guess, the first one is, and this is probably a little bit more of a negative one, and I am still kind of grappling with how to navigate my way through this, is that people make assumptions about you. So unless they know your history, then, people seem to, I don’t know how am I going to put this in a nice way, maybe look down on you a little bit. When you’re saying that you’re a VA, then, people will sometimes think, “Are you just an person, like probably don’t have a lot of life experience or work experience?” I think that’s kind of interesting for me, because I have had a pretty successful career. I could probably step into a pretty well-paying corporate career again if I wanted to. It is strange that people make that assumption without really getting to know you. What’s good about that is it’s challenged me to think about the assumptions I make about other people, because it’s the contrast that I can see, so obvious to me at the moment. Kind of interesting, but also, I think, good learning for me, because it has challenged me to think about the assumptions I make about other people potentially. The other thing is just how amazingly creative people are has really surprised me and how kind people are. I have just been astounded by the amount of amazing businesses out there because in a corporate world, I think your perspective is pretty narrow in of what you see when you’ve been in one place for such a long time. The amazing small and medium businesses out there and their creative ideas and just how incredibly creative people are and making this stuff work, to me, it’s just astounding. Also, just out of all of those people, people have just been so welcoming and so friendly and so helpful, that I’ve just been quite stunned by all the kindness of people wishing you to succeed and wanting to help you, with not wanting to have anything back or not expecting anything back, as they kind of point you in the right direction or try to help you. So it’s been really pleasant. I think it’s just been an amazing learning for me to see how much great stuff is out there and how amazingly kind people are. Joseph: Now, if you had to give advice to your younger or your previous self, as it relates to changing careers, what might that be? Norma: [34:04] Probably, to relax a little bit more about everything. I think because I was so focused on trying to build a career that I think I probably did a lot of things that, in hindsight, I just wouldn’t have done. This hustle, this trying so hard to get somewhere, and probably, doing it at the expense of my health and expense of relationships or friendships, and the expense of other people, potentially. I think a lot of that, people in that environment get so caught up in that. I just feel like it’s such an unhealthy thing to do. I would probably tell myself just to not get so caught up in it and just relax and enjoy the good bits, but not worry so much about all of that other stuff. Joseph: Is there something that you wished you had known that you now know about running your own business, for example, because it sounds like that’s something you’d wanted to do for so long? Now, you’re doing it. Any interesting insights about what’s something you wish you had known that you now know? Norma: [35:09] I mean, that you could do it, that I could do it. I would just tell myself, “You can absolutely do it.” I think just make sure that you find the right people to help you and you, because, for me, I just think just taking the dive and asking for help where you need it is probably something that I don’t do enough of, still. It’s definitely the thing that I would say to myself is, “Just do it. Ask for help if you need it. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with asking for help.” Joseph: I also know that when you sometimes put yourself in a very different environment, I know I experience this myself and I talk to people who’ve gone from the corporate world into self-employment who have experienced this, having been through this career change, what’s something that you have learned about yourself along the way? I am keeping in mind the fact that you’re still quite early on in your journey here. Norma: [35:58] That I love to learn new things. I’ve just absolutely thrived so much from learning so many new things over the last few months, about six months or so now that I’ve started this. Just the sheer amount of learning that I can do is just so exciting. It just keeps it interesting. I think that’s probably the thing that I’ve learned about myself more than anything else. Joseph: Well, I want to wrap up by making sure that we give people a chance to find out more about you. If they’re interested in learning either more about Pink Spaghetti or the virtual assistance services that you offer, where can people go if they want to learn more? Norma: [36:39] Probably, the best place is pink-spaghetti.co.uk. You can find me on there if you search for Brighton or on social media.

Making a major geographical move can certainly be exciting but also disruptive, jarring, and disorienting. Becoming a new parent is such a privilege but also life-altering in a way that creates both benefits and challenges. Nicole Webb, a journalist and news reader turned media consultant and author, describes what she experienced when moving from Australia to Hong Kong and eventually to China while adjusting to life as a new mother. She’ll discuss how she managed to adapt and thrive in the midst of tremendous professional and personal change in Career Relaunch® podcast episode 85. During the Mental Fuel® segment, I’ll also share my own thoughts on the importance of just starting somewhere when you’re trying to figure out ways to turn your side interests into an actual business. Key Career Takeaways Persistence pays off in the long run even if you don’t feel like you’re immediately gaining the traction you want as quickly as you want Going from fulltime professional to fulltime parent can be incredibly jarring, resulting in a loss of identity and confidence in yourself. There’s nothing wrong with doing something for free, at least initially, as a way of proving yourself and testing the waters until you decide whether it makes sense to monetise your skills. Tweetables to Share Stepping back into the workforce after you have a baby is not easy. Nicole Webb Tweet This This is your career, and you get to do what you want to do with it. Joseph Liu Tweet This Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel segment, I talked about the importance of considering whether and when to charge fees for something you just enjoy doing. My challenge to you, is to just consider whether it still makes sense for you to continue doing something you’re currently doing for free. You might have very good reasons for continuing to do it for the reasons I described before. However, if you’ve been getting that nagging feeling that it may be time to turn this side work you’ve been doing into something more, and if you haven’t yet found a way to monetize it, I’d recommend you consider what earning even a BIT of money from it could potentially open up for you. Even if money isn’t your primary motivator or need at this specific moment, that’s totally fine. I’d just suggest you try and pinpoint exactly what you might gain from some sort of monetization, whether that matters to you, and what that means for you. About Nicole Webb, Media Trainer & Author Nicole Webb is a journalist, presenter, media trainer, and author. She spent 20 years in the Australian television industry working as a Reporter, Producer and Presenter. A key player at 24-hour news channel Sky News for a decade, Nicole covered stories spanning tragedy to triumph. She also produced many of Sky’s high-rating programs. In 2010, Nicole and her hotelier husband moved to Hong Kong right after she became a mother, where they lived for four years before moving to Xi’an in North-West China. Nicole continued her work in media in the Asia-Pacific region before returning to Australia in 2017, where she’s since remained focused on communications. Nicole’s work now includes hosting premier events, presenting for corporate companies, and media training and consulting. Check out Nicole’s book China Blonde: How a newsreader’s search for adventure led to friendship, acceptance…and peroxide pandemonium in China and follow her on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare, Tweet to let me and Nicole know!  Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow Career Relaunch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android to automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow Career Relaunch on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!  Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Music Credits Hushed – Pillars Neutrin05 – Timeless Guy Copeland – Lymantria Dispar Rippled Stone – The Days Long Gone Adriel Fair – Oscillation Scott Buckley – Snowfall Megan Wofford – Moonlight Dreams Scott Holmes Music – Life in a Moment Thanks to Grammarly for ing Career Relaunch Built by linguists and language lovers, Grammarly’s writing app finds and corrects hundreds of complex writing errors — so you don’t have to. Career Relaunch listeners can Grammarly for free by going to GetGrammarly.com/relaunch. Interview Segment Music Credits Hushed – Pillars Neutrin05 – Timeless Guy Copeland – Lymantria Dispar Rippled Stone – The Days Long Gone Adriel Fair – Oscillation Scott Buckley – Snowfall Megan Wofford – Moonlight Dreams Scott Holmes Music – Life in a moment Episode Interview Transcript Teaser (first ~15s): “What am I without this news reader title?” Which I guess I hadn’t realized quite how much I had pinned who I was to that status and that name. It was almost like I just forgot what I was good at. Joseph: I appreciate your time here. I want to dive right into this. First of all, just kick off by getting a sense of what you’re up to right now. What’s keeping you busy right now in your career and also your life? Nicole: Yep, it’s late here in Sydney so I’ll try to make sense. Life is busy. We’ve been back from China for four years now. I think it takes a bit of time to find your mojo and settle in wherever you go. It feels like ever since the pandemic, we had locked down for four months. Ever since that wrapped up, work has been coming at me. I’m doing a lot of publicity for other authors which is something I never expected to do, and that’s really good fun. I’m doing that. That’s keeping me busy. I’m doing a bit of presenting again which I haven’t done really for quite a long time. I did a lot of emceeing and that in Asia. I’ve been doing few TV commercials and things, which has been fun getting back into the studio, and media training. It’s kind of come full circle really. Everything that I sort of learned in those early days is coming back into use. It’s been great! Joseph: Now, you mentioned in your early days that you want to go back to how you started your career many years ago. Before we get to that, could you also just describe what’s happening in your life right now outside of work? What’s keeping you busy? What’s on your mind right now? Nicole: [04:27] Well, we were in lockdown for four months in Sydney so nothing was happening, but I was still working. We’ve been out of lockdown probably about five weeks, so not long. It’s just been I guess slowly, slowly stepping back into the real world. Going to the shops for the first time again, going and getting hair color and cut, sitting at a café, all those things that we take for granted, and everyone the world over knows what that’s like now. Just getting back into life again. It’s been good. It’s been a bit overwhelming because you sit on your bum for about four months not doing too much, watching Netflix. Suddenly, you’ve plunged into the world and people are having parties and gatherings, and it’s all quite people-y. Joseph: It is very jarring, that adjustment. I’ve recently gone back to doing a lot of in-person engagements. I’ve found that it’s quite a rattling experience almost to just throw yourself back into being around tons of people again. I totally understand that. Nicole: [05:32] I agree. I think it is. You think you can’t wait to see people again, and it is exciting when you first turn up at a gathering. But, at the same time, I found myself sort of putting it off and sort of trying to schedule things that weren’t so busy wasn’t one on top of each other. You know, one thing at a time, I thought. One step at a time because it is just overwhelming. As you say, you’re not used to being around people and face to face. We’ve spent most of the time on Zoom for the last two years, haven’t we? Joseph: Definitely. I completely understand that. I know that at the same time, you’re probably quite used to all sorts of different media and being on different platforms and formats. Because I know that you actually haven’t always been a media publicist, but you started your career off in journalism. I was wondering if we could go back to your first chapter back in your early career in Sydney when you were in your early 20s. Could you tell me a little bit about how your career kicked off in journalism? And then, we can move forward from there. Nicole: [06:34] Yes. I was one of those people that, when I was 17 in high school and sat with a career guidance officer and she asked me what I wanted to do, I really wasn’t sure. I knew I wanted to live a life less ordinary. But, what that meant, I didn’t know. Hollywood, maybe, but I couldn’t act or sing so that was out of the question. What else? I she said to me, “Well, what about journalism?” I thought, “That could be an interesting career.” I like to dig deep, and investigate, and find out things. I had probably quite liked the idea of being a news reader. From then on, I sort of made up my mind, “Right, that’s what I’ll do.” Not being naive to how difficult that would be to get into. I managed to get into university doing a Bachelor of Arts, Major in Journalism and Public Relations, and went off and did that for my three years and finished. Of course, it was so hard to get a job. It was near impossible. Blondes, young girls wanting to be reporters on TV were a dime a dozen. To stand out from the crowd was tough. I ended up getting a job in radio, in sales, for a while. I was sort of given the phone book and said, “Here’s your client base. Go out and sell radio advertising,” which was a bit daunting. I did that for a while. And then, the TV station, local TV, I’m talking country town too, poached me for the TV station. I did that but I still always had this yearning to be a TV journalist. So, I started making a demo tape with some of the guys at the station there that did the ads and sent that out to all of the news directors around the country. Of course, I kept getting a lot of nos, rejection letters, you name it. Kept pursuing and persisting. I’d drive to the car park in my lunch break and look at my notebook and just ring all of these news directors each month, “Have you got anything for me?” Nothing came up. In the end, I ended up leaving the city I was in and went to Melbourne where my parents were living. I gave myself a year to get into journalism or said, “I’d have to go into sales again or PR.” A year was almost up, and in a little country town called Tamworth in New South Wales, Australia, the news director called me and said, “You’re a perfect example of persistence pays off. Would you like a job as a TV reporter?” I didn’t hesitate. I was off like a shot. The rest is history. Joseph: Tamworth. I think you mentioned this to me before. It’s like a six-hour drive from Sydney. Were you thinking that there was going to be an opportunity out there for you in news journalism? Nicole: [09:04] Well, I kind of knew that in Australia, a lot of the country towns had small bureaus. They might not have been the main headquarters, but they would have a couple of journalists and a couple of cameramen. I was desperate. I wanted this job so badly that I was like, “Hey! Get me out of the city. I’ll go to this town of 30,000 people and see what I can make of it.” So, I drove from Melbourne at that point, so I think that was about 20 hours in the car. I landed in Tamworth and started reporting. Of course, the stories were anything from the big tomato competition to a double murder-suicide. You just didn’t know what was going to happen. I mean it was a sleepy town, but all sorts happened over the two years that I was there. It was a really good grounding and a good starting point as a journal to get in the thick of it. Joseph: How did you then proceed from there? Were you enjoying the reporting? Is that what you felt was the place you wanted to be in journalism? How did things evolve for you from there? Nicole: [10:08] Look, I did I love it. I loved it. But I always had this thing in me that I wanted to get to the big smoke. And, in Australia, I guess that was Sydney. I still had my eye on doing that. I got offered a job to open one of the bureaus up on the Gold Coast, which was again bigger than Tamworth, but not the city. I went up there for a year and then I thought, “You know what? I’ll just go to Sydney and maybe try and freelance.” And that’s what I did. I ended up in Sydney and started freelancing at a lot of the major networks just whenever I could get shifts. Basically, I was a news producer. I would go in and sit on the computer, tap out stories, and put bulletins together which I like doing as well. Eventually, I decided a full-time job would be best because this whole freelance business was a bit tricky. I got offered a job on the business program with Sky News. I was the producer for that. It was a half-hour business show each night. That was great! I love doing that. I also got to do a bit of presenting because, at the time, Sky News produced quite a few programs and one of those was health news. That was just a pre-recorded program, so it wasn’t live. I kind of could dip my toes in presenting a little bit and start honing that craft which I, at that point, had decided I wanted to be a news reader. I just kept going and going until eventually, I got to do the main news. Sky News is a 24-hour news channel. A bit like BSkyB in the UK. Obviously, not as big as that by any means. That’s a much, much smaller version. But back when I was there, it was 24-hour news. So, you would do a six-hour shift and you would read six bulletins back-to-back. I loved doing that. I ended up doing that for about a decade. Joseph: That’s interesting. I’ve always been fascinated with the world of journalism. We have some parallels, Nicole. I think we may have talked about this before, but I worked very briefly in news journalism for Hawaii Public Radio. It was just radio, it wasn’t TV. I was in the production side of things. Sort of like you, I started dabbling in the news anchor side of things. In the TV side, is that a common transition to make going from production to being on air? Nicole: [12:28] I think it is now. I think perhaps and was then. But I think maybe 20 years before that, not so much. You were sort of pinned as a news presenter from the start, and often news presenters weren’t even journalists back then. Whereas, nowadays, I think you tend to start off most news readers will have been a journalist on the road or producing. In some way, they would have been involved in creating the news and then led up to that presenting gig. Joseph: It sounds like this is going well for you. It sounds like you’re enjoying working at Sky News. You’re on air for six hours at a time. You’re doing what you want to do. When we spoke before, I know you went through a bit of a transition in your early to mid-30s. Can you tell me a little bit about what was happening I guess in your personal life and what triggered you to then change directions in your career? Nicole: [13:21] I was reading at Sky News, living the life, driving a mini convertible, living in my apartment, having a great time, and was single. But then, I, fortunately, met my husband on a blind date. He was in hotels at the time. He did say to me early on, “They like to move us around in hotels and there are opportunities overseas.” I did shut him down quite quickly because I’ve been such a career person. I thought it wasn’t that I didn’t want to go overseas, it was just that I thought I’d miss the boat, you know. I was in my mid-30s and I thought I’ve kind of missed that time, and I don’t want to give up what I’ve achieved so far. So, we sort of put that to bed because he was from England anyway, and come here as a backpacker. So, he was away as far as he was concerned. And then, maybe after we got married, a year later, a job came up in Hong Kong at the W. For some reason, I just thought, “I have been doing this for a decade now and I could quite easily be doing the exact same thing in another 10 years. I couldn’t see how things would change.” I felt like I was somehow losing a bit of that ambition and losing my mojo a bit. I guess I was a bit tired with it all. I just saying, “You know what? We should do it. Let’s throw your head in the ring and see if you get the job in Hong Kong. Let’s go.” He nearly fell out of bed when I said that. He did, he got the job. Next thing I know, I’m sort of reg from my career. Also, the same week found out that we were having a baby. It was a bit of a two-pronged affair. Joseph: Those are two really big pieces of news, right? You’re finding out that you’re moving abroad. You’re finding out that you’re going to become parents. Can you take me back to that moment, what was running through your head that week when you found out? Nicole: [15:14] Just “gulp.” Like, “Oh, my gosh! Is this really happening?” I can being on air, and I was just newly pregnant. My mum knew, and she would watch me on-air from she lived up in Queensland. She was, “I can’t believe you’re pregnant, and I can’t believe you’re leaving!” But she had encouraged us to do this. But it was just so daunting. I James went ahead of me and I had to sort of pack up the house, sell the cars, and do all of that. When he got there, he would send me a few pieces of information about what it was like there because I didn’t have much idea. I’d been there once probably 10 years prior for just a couple of days so I didn’t know what it was like to live there. Let alone, have a baby there. Of course, when we got there and it was fantastic to have a baby there. Amazing! Joseph: This was your first time living abroad. Is that correct, Nicole? Nicole: [16:03] Pretty much. I mean I had moved from New Zealand to Australia as a teenager but it’s the same. Joseph: Right. I guess Hong Kong, we’re talking about totally different culture, totally different language. People are speaking Cantonese there. Can you describe what that transition was like for you? Because this is a pretty major move for you. Nicole: [16:23] It was a big transition. I just dealing with your body is changing anyway because you’re pregnant, and we didn’t have a home. We lived in the hotel for six weeks which was great. But it was still quite unnerving. James was busy with his job because he had a new job, a lot to prove, and very long hours in Hong Kong. If you came home at 7 p.m. that was considered an early mark. I had a lot of time on my own, and I’m sort of waddling the streets, getting bigger and bigger, and a bit of lost identity. “What am I without this news reader title?” Which I guess I hadn’t realized quite how much I had pinned who I was to that status and that name. It was almost like I just forgot what I was good at. Especially, once Ava was born. Suddenly, you’re a mum and you’ve got this new baby. I couldn’t even think of working at that time. And then, I thought, “What would I do anyway? I’m just a news reader. I just read the auto queue. What else could I possibly do?” It sort of took a good friend of mine who was there and said, “Look, don’t forget you’ve got 20 years of experience. And it’s not just reading the news. It’s writing, and producing, and speaking, and creative things, all of this.” It just took me a while to sort of work that out, I think. Joseph: Can we talk about this shift for a second of going from full-time employee and professional to full-time mom. Because this is something that comes up a lot. I mean I see it around me. As you know, I’ve got a 4-year-old at home. This shift from being full-time employed to being at home, changing diapers, and singing nursery rhymes. Can you just describe what that was like for you? Nicole: [18:18] It was very strange, I guess. It’s not that I’d ever been desperate to be a mum, but I thought I would be. But I was always such a career person and it was strange. I’d be down in this big giant shopping center which was underneath. We lived on the 43rd floor of a high-rise apartment in the end. Just so many different cultural aspects to it as well. Having a baby in Hong Kong, so many people have their two cents worth and their cultural things come into play, and what I’m feeding her, and what I’m doing with her. You get questioned and put on the spot. I just felt quite alone with it, I guess. I ended up ing a group of pregnant women who were all due around the same time. In hindsight, it was the best thing I could have done. But I just ed, it was daunting. Also, I just ed seeing housewife on the VISA applications, and that threw me as well. It’s like, “That’s not me! What’s happened to me? Where am I?” Joseph: Just the emotions of going from being a news reader at a reputable organization to this “housewife,” as you described it. That to me would be quite shocking and kind of hard to stomach. Nicole: [19:28] I can still feel the feelings when I talk about it now. I think it was hard for James as well because he was so ive of me. It was hard for him though to know what to do and what to say. Because he was trying to juggle this new job and me, and I’m here whinging. I think I was quite a pain in the bum for a while until I sorted myself out. Joseph: Well, let’s talk a little bit about that. Your daughter’s name is Ava. Is that right? She was only a few weeks old, and then at that time, you did manage to find a new gig. Could you explain how that came about, and what you ended up doing there in Hong Kong? Nicole: [20:09] Well, actually, the first gig I ever did was a master of ceremonies for an event, and I’d never done this before. I guess people think, “Oh, you’ve read the news. So, I’m sure you can be an emcee for the night.” But I was terrified! Because by nature, I’m actually quite a shy person. So, standing up and talking in front of a whole group of people that could see me was quite different to a camera where I can’t see the people. I was really terrified when I got asked to do this job. Ava was nine weeks old. I just thought, “Wow!” But I knew I had to say yes, because I also knew that I had to have something of my own. Joseph: How did that sum up for you? Nicole: [20:45] I think it was actually a friend of mine who couldn’t do it and suggested me. It was one of those things that I was just lucky to be in the right place at the right time. They had these award nights. They are fantastic and became really good friends and had me back every year. It was worth doing it. Joseph: How’d you balance that with having a 9-week-old baby? At the start, I’m just trying to imagine how you pull that off. Nicole: [21:13] Well, I was lucky. I at the time James’ parents were in town from the UK. They looked after Ava. I having breast pads in and trying to find an evening dress that was three sizes bigger than I was used to because I still had pregnancy weight and all of that. It was all a bit a new era for me, I guess. I did that. It gave me the confidence again and reminded me that, “I can do this. I have got this experience” I think a lot of women, even if they’re not living overseas, struggle when they first have a baby because they’re so much out of their comfort zone. And then, they have to step back into the workforce and it’s not easy. Joseph: Okay. You go from working full-time to being a full-time mom. And now, you’re back to working time. What was that transition like for you? Just the mechanics of that, and also just the emotions of that. Nicole: [22:03] I was really lucky. I didn’t ever go back full-time with Ava. What I did was just emceeing. It was sort of irregular. It was just enough to sort of I guess feed me a little bit of enthusiasm and confidence. And then, I also started writing. While I’d been a journalist and I’ve been writing scripts for years, that’s quite different as you know to writing an article. I started just writing for some parenting websites. Because I guess I was trying to combine what was happening in my life with my media experience. What was happening is that I was changing nappies and visiting change rooms all around Hong Kong, trying to get on in taxis, trying to find my way with no Cantonese, and trying to fumble my way through it. I started writing articles about parenthood. I did it for free in the beginning just to get my name known, I think. Thankfully, that sort of led to other things like writing for magazines and what have you. It was never full-time, but it was flexible. So, it was great, having Ava, I could do it in my own time, so to speak. And then, that’s what sort of prompted me to start my blog. Doing all of that writing I guess I found that I had quite a ion for it and I enjoyed it. On the 2-year mark of being in Hong Kong, I started my blog which was “Mint Mocha Musings.” It just fuelled me through this whole pregnancy, and parenthood, and sleepless nights. “Mint Mocha Musing’s, The Hotelier’s Wife and Expat Affair in Hong Kong,” it was. I just started writing what was happening in Hong Kong, and all of the crazy, amazing, fascinating things that I would see every day as an expat. That blog soon monetized itself. It wasn’t a huge amount of money, but I soon learned there were ways of doing that and making a bit of extra money on the side. All of these little things I guess were enough to make me feel like I had a sense of purpose again. Joseph: You mentioned one thing there about monetizing your blog. I know that there’s a lot of people who maybe listen to this show, and they’re thinking about doing some writing on the side, and whether they want to make money from it or not, they just want to share their thoughts with the world. How did you turn your blog from being just a place to share your thoughts to something that was generating money? Could you share some of the mechanics around that? Nicole: [24:20] It’s not easy, I’ll say that. It’s really difficult to make a lot of money, but people do, that’s for sure. You just have to be very, very dedicated. It’s almost a full-time job. But for me, I was able to do sponsored posts. That would be always a company that I felt aligned with what the blog was, which was travel and expat and parenting and all of that. That might be an airline or something that might sponsor a blog post. So that means I would write any sort of article that I would normally write. But maybe I would just write a sentence in there that might relate to say “flying” somewhere, and then they would pay to have a link to their website. You can do those. Obviously, you don’t want to do those all the time because then the blog becomes inauthentic. But, every four or five blogs, you can put one of those in there and that gives you a bit of money. Another way is through advertising. One of my biggest s was OFX, which you can transfer money wherever you are overseas, back home, and you don’t have to pay a fee. That was a great one for my expat community. And so, every time someone sort of found that through my blog, which I d it on there and ed up through me, I would get a percentage of that commission. It’s not a bad way to earn a little bit of money. It’s not a lot, but it’s certainly something for your efforts. Joseph: You’re doing some emceeing. You’re doing some presenting, you started writing Mint Mocha Musings. I guess you’re a few years now into being in Hong Kong. Are you and James thinking this is where you’re going to be for a while or what was the plan from here on out? Nicole: Look, we like to think that was where we were going to be because we were loving it. A couple of years in, you find your feet and you find friends and you start to really get into the swing of things. We loved Hong Kong and we probably could have stayed there forever. But the problem now was that James was number two in the hotel, and he needed to really get to be the general manager to progress his career further. We started sort of putting out filler, and of course, jobs would come up all the time from Bangkok to Seoul, to Singapore, all over the place, India. And, James’s sort of put his hand up and he might get to the last interview or the job would fall through or whatever. But China just kept coming up because they were building so many hotels. I think, in one year, the company was starting at the time built 80 hotels in China. It was almost getting a bit hard to avoid China. We did get offered a job in Wuhan. When no one knew where Wuhan was or that it even existed, and I we went up there for the weekend because we had to decide by the Monday. We went to have a look and make this decision which was just so hard and overwhelming because we didn’t really want to leave Hong Kong. We ended up turning that job down, but we soon realized that we couldn’t say no too much more. Eventually, Xi’an came up on our radar, and I just googling it because that’s all I had to go on and it looked quite attractive as far as Chinese cities go. The quintessential Chinese architecture, lantern sort of hanging around the city. I said to James, “I think we’ve just got to do it and get it done. We’ll go for a year or whatever. You get your first general manager role, and then you’ll be more set up.” And, I thought I’ll just take my laptop and I’ll continue my blog. Of course, there’ll be a lot to write about in China. I’ll continue some of the contracts I had with magazines, but I couldn’t work properly of course because you needed a proper VISA. That was all very difficult to get. So, four years into Hong Kong, we moved to the middle of China with Ava, three and a half years old. Joseph: What was your setup in China? For those people who’ve never been to China, where were you living? What was that like? How was your adjustment? Nicole: [28:17] Xi’an is inland. If you’ve ever looked at a map of China, there’s Beijing up the north on the east coast, and then Shanghai is sort of further down. Xi’an’s in the middle, but inland, quite far. So landlocked, a city of 9 million people, and there are many, many, many cities of 9 million. That’s quite a small city in comparison. No one really speaks English. Very few Westerners. When you consider Hong Kong’s had maybe 100,000 expats, maybe there were 1,000 in Xi’an, tops. We lived in the hotel, but we lived in the residences at the end of the hotel. But it was sort of like being in the hotel still. It was just a huge culture shock for me, for all of us. Just thinking, “What are we doing here?” Just the noise was just crazy and chaotic. Just horns beeping 24/7 day and night because they tend to use the horn instead of the indicator. Traffic was just wild, careening all over the road. No lanes. No orderly driving. Bicycles with four or five people piled up high. Just so many people. We would step outside of the hotel and Ava and I were fair game, we were really pounced on because many people had never seen a White person in the flesh. Ava, this little pocket rocket that was three and a half with long blonde hair and fair skin, they would crowd around us, and take photos, and touch her, and touch her hair, and someone picked her up in that first week. I just being horrified thinking, “Oh my gosh! What are we doing? How am I going to survive?” I couldn’t speak any Mandarin at that point. It was just tough in the beginning. Joseph: I guess the closest I’ve experienced to that which isn’t quite the same level of difference you’re talking about here is, my wife is Turkish. I when we go to Turkey, people are just not that familiar with seeing somebody who looks like me. There’s a lot of people kind of hover around us. People are very friendly, but it’s also quite daunting and quite startling when people want to pick up your child and take them inside and take pictures. It’s kind of odd. Nicole: [20:22] It’s alarming. At first, I didn’t realize that it was harmless. I didn’t realize that it was just pure fascination. You’re on guard because you don’t know. I could just imagine losing Ava in those crowds of people. It was just terrifying. Until I understood what it was all about, which took quite some time to understand the culture, understand these people and how they feel and how they think, it was a real work in progress. Joseph: You’re in China. Are you then thinking that at this point, you’re going to be there temporarily? And then, what ended up coming up next for you guys? I think in 2017, you made another move. Is that right? Nicole: [31:17] We ended up spending two and a half years in Xi’an, which by the time we left, we really loved it. I mean look, it wasn’t Hong Kong, but we had sort of fallen in love. It had become our new normal because it was just crazy, but we had fallen in love with the crazy. We had made a lot of great friends there. Chinese locals and expats alike. We found our feet there and we’re enjoying it. I’d started writing my book because I decided I wanted to write a book. I just didn’t quite know what that would be. And as soon as we stepped foot on to Chinese soil, I knew it would be about the country. I started doing a lot of research even though I had no clue how to write a book. By the time I’d been there, about 18 months, I started doing interviews with all sorts of locals. From young women in China, to my local hairdresser, to an old war veteran. Just started trying to find out who these people were and how they felt about their country and their lives. Obviously, I had a translator. I could speak some Mandarin by the time we left, but obviously, not enough to do an interview. I spent a lot of time doing that. And then, James got offered a job in Sydney. Of course, we were sort of humming and harrying because we didn’t want to give up life overseas. But also, it’s very hard to get back to Australia and we didn’t want to miss our opportunity. And Ava was six and missing the grandparents. And so, we decided to say yes. It was with a bit of a heavy heart, but we thought, “It’s now or never.” So, it was goodbye, China. Joseph: Now, this is something I’ve always wondered about, Nicole. Because as you know, I’m from the United States, and I now live in the UK. I’ve always wondered what’s it like to go back to where you’re from after what seems like was quite an amazing and kind of incredible personal and professional journey through Hong Kong and China. When you stepped back in Australia, can you describe what that moment was like for you? What sort of feelings were you experiencing? Nicole: [33:19] It was very weird. It’s just same, same but not. We chose to live purposely in a suburb that we had never lived in before. Because I didn’t want to go full circle and go back to where we used to live because I almost felt like that would be forgetting what we’ve done. I didn’t want to forget it because it was such a big part of our lives and it was so, as you say, “amazing.” We chose this suburb that we didn’t know much about but seemed nice. It was just different because everything was in high definition. No pollution. Everything was so defined and sharp. The sky was so blue. We’ve been wearing masks in China because of the pollution. All of a sudden, I could speak to the doctors, and the hairdressers and that was an easy side. I hadn’t driven for seven years so that was challenging. I guess trying to explain to people what you’ve been through. It was lucky that quite a lot of people came to Hong Kong and a few came to China. Some good friends knew what it was like, but many didn’t and it’s really hard to explain to them what you’ve just been through. I guess a lot of people will expect you just to pick up where you left off, and you really can’t because you’ve changed so much and life is so different for you. People would always say, “You’re going to go back to Sky News.” I’d be like, “No, no. I don’t want to go back to Sky News.” I want to move forward and do different things. I think it took again a big adjustment to settle back in. Even just watching TV was quite jarring. The Australian accents and the news was quite colloquial, and now I watch it every night. But it was just so different to being overseas and not watching Chinese television because I couldn’t understand it. But just another world, I guess. Joseph: Before we talk about some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way, can you also just explain what you’re now up to as a media publicist? What exactly are you now working on with authors? Nicole: [35:20] Because I published my memoir “China Blonde” last year in October, I did a lot of my own publicity because I know the media landscape here, and I know a lot of the journalists because they’re still around after 20 years which is great. I did my own publicity and got some good publicity. And then, I had a few other authors come to me and want me to do the same thing for them. I’m now working with a charity, “The Life You Can Save,” by philosopher Peter Singer, and philanthropist. He’s quite well-known. He’s written a book of the same name and they curate the most effective charities to donate to. I’m now working and doing their publicity for their book. I’ve since done a few other fiction and non-fiction authors. Just placing, getting them exposure, I guess on things like podcasts, and newspapers, and TV, and radio. I love doing that because it’s what I know and it’s fun and it’s easy for me. I’ve been doing, as I said, a few presenting gigs as well. So, getting back into the studio I did an ad tutorial the other week which was fun. One lesson I’ve learned is I told myself for 10 years, I don’t think I’d be able to read the auto queue anymore. It’s like I told myself this narrative that I couldn’t do it. The minute I stepped into Hong Kong, it was over. And then, when I went back to do it a few weeks ago, I was shocked that it was actually like riding a bike. I couldn’t believe that for 10 years, I’ve let myself believe that that was something that would be too difficult for me now. It’s a big lesson. I know you haven’t even asked me that yet. But just thinking about that is something that I only discovered very recently. I’m doing that, and media training corporate companies that need to know how to get their message across in the media, which is sort of everything coming into the fore and writing another book. Fingers in many pies. Joseph: Sounds like you’re very busy and involved with a lot of really interesting projects and initiatives. You mentioned lessons there, Nicole. I would love to talk just a little bit about some of the things you’ve learned along the way before we wrap up by talking a little bit more about “China Blonde.” I’d be curious to hear what is something that you have learned about yourself along this winding journey of yours. Nicole: [37:38] I think I’ve learned that I’m quite a chameleon and that I tend to fit in and adapt which is quite a powerful thing to know that nothing will be too hard. You’ll find your way around it. That’s as far as expat life goes or living anywhere, I guess. Work-wise, I think I’ve learned about myself that if I have a goal, I’m very single-minded and I find that the way that I achieve what I want to achieve is by sticking to that goal and persevering at any cost. Not giving up. Looking back to those early days when I got my first journalism job. Joseph: As you look back to those earlier days, if you can kind of think all the way back to your days in your 20s when you were working in Sydney, do you have any advice that you would give to your younger self as it relates to changing careers or relocating to a different country? And if so, what might that advice be? Nicole: [38:37] It will always work out. I think one piece of advice which is probably what my mum told me is that nothing’s forever. You can panic and get all worked up about, should we be moving to Hong Kong, or should we be changing jobs, or should we be doing something. But, at the end of the day, you take these leaps and you’re not stuck there forever. If it doesn’t work out, you can always change jobs. You can always leave the country and go somewhere else or go home. You’re never really stuck. Except of course in COVID. But generally, I think you should take these risks and take those. Step out of your comfort zone because generally what comes from that is always rewarding. And often, it’s far more rewarding. Even though it seems so difficult at the time to step out of your comfort zone, I think the rewards far outweigh any that say you procrastinated and didn’t do it. You would always be kicking yourself and wishing that you’d had the guts to do something. I think you’re better off jumping in head first, even if it is uncomfortable because the rewards will just be tenfold. Joseph: When you look back on your career transitions, what’s something that you wished you had known that you now know? Nicole: [39:54] Oh gosh! Every sort of piece of work that you do is all making up to be this whole sum of who you are. You’re not just one thing. We do tend to pigeonhole ourselves into certain things, don’t we? I think you are the sum of so many different things that everything really gravitates together to give you so much experience and, in more ways, than one, in life and work. And so, each step you take in life is just another notch in your belt really. I guess I didn’t know that when I was younger. You always worry about everything and worry what you’re doing, and is it the right thing. But it helps you grow, doesn’t it? Joseph: I want to wrap up, Nicole, by talking about one of your recent endeavors which you did allude to. But, wouldn’t mind talking a little bit more about your book, “China Blonde,” which you published last year. Can you just tell me what’s it about and how’s that journey been for you as an author? Nicole: [40:52] It’s a memoir. A snapshot of our time mainly in China for those two and a half years. I just wanted to I guess educate and entertain at the same time. I wanted to show people what the real Chinese are like. Because all we really hear is politics and the economy, and we don’t really know what the real people are like. I wanted to get that across and explain what they’re like. But also, it’s my journey and what it was like I guess as you we’ve talked about giving up my career and moving to Hong Kong and China, and finding my feet, and finding a sense of purpose, and all the crazy funny stories that happened and the places we visited. That’s what it really is, I guess. It took probably four years in the making from those very early days of writing, and researching, and interviewing. It wasn’t until I got back to Australia that I could really start doing some courses and learn the craft of actually writing a book, and putting chapters together, and all of that, which was just a whole other level. It’s been a really interesting journey. I’ve really learned so much. I still have a monthly writer’s workshop which I go to, and we have to submit 4,000 words, so it keeps you able. That’s what I’m doing and I’m writing fiction now and hoping that that will turn into something, and that’s based in Hong Kong. Joseph: Very interesting. For those people out there who are aspiring authors, do you have any quick tips? Nicole: [42:19] Just keep writing. Don’t stop. I think the difference between being an author and not is that the author didn’t stop. Because so many people, we start writing, we all think we’ve got a book, and after, we give up. Just finish it. Don’t worry too much about the first draft. Just get it all out and that can always be fine-tuned and edited and what have you. Joseph: I’m going to keep that in mind myself. If people want to learn more about you, Nicole, or your book, “China Blonde,” where can they go? Nicole: [42:46] Probably, the best place is “nicolewebbonline,” that’s my website. I’m on all the social medias as well. Instagram, nicolewebbonline, Facebook, and Twitter. Come and say hello. Joseph: Thank you so much, Nicole, for taking the time to tell us more about your life as an expat in Hong Kong and China, and how you managed to build a new life and career for yourself there. And also, back in Australia. Also, just the importance of going for it when you have an opportunity come up. I hope things go well with your book and your work as a media publicist and your advertorial work. Nicole: [43:20] Thank you so much for having me.

When you’re trying to build anything new, the hardest part is often getting started. In this episode of Career Relaunch®, Julia Taylor, a former US government defense intelligence officer turned web developer and founder shares her thoughts on building a helpful community, thinking outside of the box, and creating your first website. I also share some thoughts on the importance of being okay with taking imperfect actions and my own challenges I faced building my first website. Key Career Takeaways Just because you’ve never done something doesn’t mean you can’t do it in the future When it comes to community-building, there are no shortcuts around the blood, sweat, tears, and time required to fully engage with people Thinking outside the box of what you’ve assumed your career should look like can really open up new possibilities for your career and life It’s very easy to focus on what doesn’t go well, so it’s important to take a moment to be proud of the work you’re doing and progress you’re making Resources Mentioned How to Set Up Your First Website in 7 Steps– Joseph’s blog 8 Reasons I Left Rainmaker Platform for WordPress– that blog post I mentioned during the episode that I wrote about why I shifted to WordPress Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I challenged you to think about something you’ve been trying to perfect before putting it out into the world–whether it’s your CV, social media profile, product, service, or website. Focus on getting a version out there that’s good enough. Sometimes referred to as a minimum viable product (or MVP), this can be something you feel may still need some work, but certainly won’t embarrass you. Try to just get the ball rolling on the idea, knowing that you’ll improve, refine, and rework it as you go. Instead of trying to start in the perfect place, in the perfect way, or on the perfect day, focus on just starting somewhere. I’m actually going to try and do this myself with a bit of a social media refresh I’m planning to tinker with in the months ahead. About Julia Taylor, found of Geeksquad Julia Taylor was an intelligence officer for the US Department of Defense with assignments in places including Kabul and Kandahar, Afghanistan. She eventually met her husband during one of her deployments, moved to the UK, and went through a transitional period where she bounced around a bit with some 9-5 jobs, before eventually moving to North Carolina where she began building websites. She’s now the CEO & Founder of GeekPack®, focused on empowering women & girls to change their lives for the better through the power of code, community & confidence. As a (former) military wife, self-taught web developer, and lover of location independence, Julia has taught over 2,500 women to not only master WordPress but also take control of their lives and live by their own . Learn more about her GeekForGeek Grant Program providing women access to the WP Rockstar Program and 6 months hip in her private GeekPack® community. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare, Tweet to let me and Julia know! Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow Career Relaunch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android to automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow Career Relaunch on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to Audible for ing Career Relaunch Thanks to Audible for ing this episode of Career Relaunch. Audible is the premier provider of digital audiobooks, offering over 180,000 audiobook titles for listening anytime and anywhere on your favorite device. Career Relaunch listeners can a free audiobook and get 30-day trial at audibletrial.com/careerrelaunch. Interview Segment Music Credits Hazy – Dreamer Ever So Blue – Calme Podington Bear – Sidecar Ecovillage – Unending Love Lama House – Sola Ventus Infraction – Last Hope Episode Interview Transcript Teaser (first ~15s): I wish that I had given myself a little bit more credit and thought outside the box. I didn’t really know anything different at the time. It was just one of those experiences that I needed to go through. That was part of my journey to get to where I am now. Joseph: Let’s start by talking a little bit about what you have been focused on recently in your career and your life, and then we’re going to go back in time and talk about your very interesting career trajectory. What has been keeping you busy lately? Julia: [02:38] I love this time of year because I get to reflect on what I’ve done and my team, what we’ve accomplished. Also, look forward to what we want to do in the future. I’m doing a lot of that right now, and it’s really exciting. It starts out being a bit overwhelming, and then as I start to dig in and chat with different team and some coaches and kind of identify next steps, it does get really exciting. That’s really where I am now. I got a couple priorities that I’m focused on. Professionally, my big priority is focusing on my team. I’m a big believer that if I can build a solid, ed, and encouraged team of folks who love what they do and believe in the mission and vision of my company, GeekPack, that will trickle down to my community. That’s been working for the last couple of years, so I spend a lot of time and energy focused on my team, empowering them, making sure that they’re happy and they feel ed. That’s my big focus, professionally. Personally, I’m in a really fortunate position to be able to — I don’t want to say “step back,” but because I can empower my team so much and give them more responsibility, I’m actually able to have a much better work-life balance than I’ve ever had before. That’s been a big priority this past year and will continue to be, so I can really be the visionary and not so much in the weeds and move the business forward and reach our vision. That’s been what I’ve been working on. Joseph: Is your team based where you are, physically and geographically, or are they spread out everywhere? Julia: [04:18] All over the world. I’m in Colorado. I’ve got a team member in Florida. We’ve got one in Canada. We’ve got one in the UK, and we’ve got two in Australia. I’ve got another one on the East Coast. Someone in Texas. Literally, all over the world. Joseph: I know that one of the things that you’re really ionate about is the independence of working wherever you want to. I think you refer to as “location independent.” We’re going to come back to that and talk about how you’ve done that in your own life. It sounds like you’re bringing that to life with your team. too. That’s really cool. Also, GeekPack, can you just give us a snapshot of what exactly you do as the CEO and founder of GeekPack? What do you do for your clients? Julia: [05:00] The mission of GeekPack is we empower women in tech to get into tech. Anyone who has ever dabbled in anything kind of techy in the past, or maybe they didn’t get into anything techy because maybe they weren’t very good at math when they were a kid, and someone said to them, “You’re never going to be good at tech,” that sort of thing. Anyone who wants to give tech a go. We primarily focus on coding. We teach web development. We teach coding languages. We just empower women to learn these hard skills that they can then use whether it’s in a 9-to-5 job, or they want to start their own online business, and they learn these skills with a community around them. That’s what GeekPack is. It’s a community where people can ask the “silly questions” that normally they might be terrified to ask because someone might be rude, or they might laugh at them. There’s none of that allowed in my community. We one another, we encourage each other. We’re there when there’s wins and when there’s lows, answering questions, and all that goes along with learning these skills, but also finding clients and finding work. That’s what GeekPack is. Joseph: Very cool. What a great mission that you’ve got out there. I think that that’s especially important these days, just empowering people to be able to have the tools to create their own websites and to learn how to code. It seems like it’s a very current necessary skill these days that pretty much I guess all of us need to have. I have zero of those skills. Now, you haven’t always been the founder of GeekPack, Julia. I would love to go back in time and talk about your chapter in your career when you are actually a defense intelligence officer. Let’s talk about that and then we can move forward from there. What exactly were you doing as a defense intelligence officer? Julia: [06:57] Back in about 2006, when I ed the U.S. government and ed the Department of Defense as an intelligence officer. It was an amazing job. I got to travel all over the world. I actually deployed to Afghanistan twice, which was a real honor to get to go there and work with everyone there and the mission that we were doing. This was back in 2008, ’09, and 2010. Kind of at the height of when stuff was going on in Afghanistan. I was an intelligence officer, so I worked with lots of different intelligence agencies. We collected as much information as possible to put together packages that we would then on to a military unit that would then go in and action that intelligence. That’s probably the best way to explain what I did. I did a lot of high-level briefings. I would brief generals and go to the Pentagon and things like that. From very high-level strategic stuff, all the way down to tactical kind of stuff that was going on the ground when I was in-country. A very wide range of stuff that I got to do. Very, very privileged position. Joseph: How did you get into that line of work? Is that something that you had thought you wanted to do when you grew up or were you thinking about this in university or college? Julia: [08:30] When I was growing up, my mom was a flight attendant for Delta. She flew my whole life as I was growing up. My dad, he was a stay-at-home dad with me and my brother. And because she was a flight attendant, we got to fly for free. All growing up, I have always traveled. I have been incredibly fortunate to get to travel all over the world. I think I always had that kind of interest and that bug in me to travel. When I was in college, I decided to study Russian. The only reason I did is I looked into it and it had a very high percentage of people getting As, and I feel terrible itting that. But I thought, “Oh, that would be a cool thing to do.” For some reason, I always thought I would work for the foreign service, that I would work for the state department and travel. I was lucky enough to get an internship with the state department back when I was in college, and I lived in Armenia. For a summer and did that, and I very quickly realized I did not want to do that job. I thought, “Oh, maybe something in the intelligence community would be cool.” I learned Russian, and I got a government grant. They sent me to Russia to live there for a year to learn the language. That kind of led me into working for the government. It all worked out well and I was just in the right place at the right time. I got a great position with the Department of Defense, and I got to do that for a handful of years and travel and deploy. It was a fantastic opportunity. Joseph: Before we talk about your transition, I just got to ask you because I know very little about the military or even the intelligence community. Aside from the kind of stuff I see on like TV, or I’m thinking of “Jack Ryan,” are there any sort of misconceptions that exist about what any intelligence officer does? Julia: [10:24] 100%. Every misconception you can imagine. Everything you see in Hollywood, I would say 90% of that is not possible. But they sure make it look good. Nothing kind of moves as quickly as it does in Hollywood. And you’re right, “Jack Ryan” and “24” and “Homeland,” all those. They’re amazing TV shows. I would watch them, and I would think to myself, “Why didn’t we have that asset? Why didn’t it move that quick?” But it’s just not feasible. I mean, at the end of the day, working for the government, it is a huge machine, working for the military. Things take time, decisions take time. The only time when anything ever moved quickly and was anything remotely similar to what you see in Hollywood was when I was deployed. Even then, it was probably just kind of 10% similar, but still very cool to kind of know how it happens. We’ve got a lot of pretty incredible gadgets and tech stuff that can happen that the government can use. But it’s nothing like what you see in Hollywood. I wish it was. Maybe we’re getting closer, but Hollywood has a good way of exaggerating all that. Joseph: Can you also just give a glimpse into what your setup was. Were you on the field? Were you in an office? Were you in a tent? What was your physical setup when you were deployed? Julia: [11:51] My first deployment was in Kabul, in the capital. We were on a base, and I was in a building. From the inside, you would never know the difference. It was kind of technically within something called a “skiff” for years. I probably couldn’t tell you what that stands for, but it was a secure compartmented environment. But, apart from that, it just looked like any other open floor plan, office space with lots of computers. Occasionally, when I was deployed both times, I would get to go out and go to different FOBs, Forward Operating Bases, places that had tents. That’s where they kind of operated out of, and I would spend a couple days here and there. But, for the most part, I was in like an office building. In my second deployment, I was down in Kandahar in the south. That was a much, much bigger, huge, base. It was a town, pretty much. I mean there was a Pizza Hut. There was a coffee shop. There were all the western amenities you could think of. You could get there on base, but yet you were in the middle of the desert in Afghanistan. Two different experiences, but both times, it’s a pretty much just an office setup. Lots of TVs, big screens all around where you can kind of watch things that were going on the ground. But, for the most part, pretty much just an office. Joseph: At what point did you start to think about doing something differently? I understand you were doing this for a few years, but you eventually went through a bit of a transition. Julia: [13:26] While I was deployed my first time in 2008 in Kabul, I met a guy who is now my husband. We just celebrated 10 years of marriage. Joseph: Congratulations. Julia: [13:37] Thank you. We met. He’s British. That’s kind of where the story takes a bit of a turn. Of course, he was in the military. He has since retired. Him being British, and both of us being in jobs that traveled a lot and deployed a lot, it didn’t work very well, personally. We had great professional careers, but personally, it was tough, the long-distance and everything else. I made the decision to leave my job with the government and move to the UK, and we got married. I became a military wife which is one of the things I’m most proud of. But my career progression took a real nosedive. As anyone who is familiar with what it’s like being in the military, you move a lot. We did. We moved a lot. I found myself jumping from one kind of 9-to-5 to another with zero career progression. That took a real toll, and we did that for a few years. That was kind of my in-between time of “what am I going to do” and “how do I have career progression for myself” while we move all the time. Because remote work wasn’t a big thing back then. I was really kind of lost on the professional side. Joseph: Can you the moment when you decided that, “Hey, I got to do something about this. I can’t keep bouncing from one job to another.” Is there a particular moment that stands out in your mind? Julia: [15:13] Yes. I can it like it was yesterday. I wish it was one of these moments where the heavens opened, and doves came flying in. It was definitely an a-ha moment, but things didn’t change immediately. It still took time, but gosh, this must have been 2014 and I was in one of these 9-to-5s. I was in the job. Now, granted I had no tech background. When I worked for the government, I didn’t do anything techy. I didn’t do anything with code. When I went to college, I didn’t have anything. I’d never looked at or done anything with any code, or websites, or anything like that. That was all completely new to me. I was working away and my boss walks in. He says that he wanted his business’s website to have this functionality. He told me to do it. I knew what he was asking for, but I had no idea how to achieve it. Joseph: What was your actual role at the time when he asked? Julia: [16:20] I was a business analyst. Nothing techy at all. We would go out and work with local businesses and get them involved with what we were doing in the unit as part of the university. Nothing to do with websites or anything techy. And, why he thought I would know how to do this, I have no idea. But it was a gift. He asked me to do this thing and it worked out. I thinking, “What do I do now?” I look to my colleague who sat next to me, and he is a bit more techy than I was. He said, “Don’t worry. Let’s google it and we’ll figure it out.” Sure enough, I know how to google. I googled exactly what my boss had asked me to do. What it was when you’re on a website and there’s like an FAQ and there’s the kind of drop-down, like the plus/minus. That sort of thing. That’s what he asked for. I googled that and I found this line of code, and I took this. I copied it and I pasted it into the back end of the website, and I hit “save.” Then I refreshed the website and it worked. That was the moment where I had this like, “Oh, my gosh! I just googled something that created this thing, that someone asked for.” I had no idea what I was doing, but I was able to google it and problem solved and figured it out. The result was right there in front of me, and it was a magical moment. That was when I thought to myself, “Wow! If I can learn more about this, maybe this is a skill that I could then use to get a remote job to where I could work from anywhere.” It was that moment of, “Okay. This could be the thing.” Of course, what my current career has turned into is very different than what I thought it would back then. But that was the moment when I realized that I just did something based on what I learned on Google, created a result, and I saw the results right there on the screen. And I thought maybe this could be something. Joseph: At that moment, you’re realizing that, “Okay. I’ve got the ability to figure this stuff out. I can start to tweak code on a website.” What happened next for you in of your actual career track, and what you did about this once you figured this out? Julia: [18:44] I learned as much as I could. I took all the free coding classes I could find, all the resources, and I built websites from the ground up. I did all the things that I thought I needed to do to know enough to get a job. In my head, this whole time I’m thinking to myself, “I will get a job. I will be an employee. I will work in a 9-to-5 but I will be remote.” There was nothing in me that thought I could be an entrepreneur. There was nothing in me that thought I could have an online business that I ran. That never was that something I considered because I don’t know anyone that did that. Of course, you hear “online business,” I’m like, “Oh, that’s a total scam!” All those things. That was not an option for me. I learned as much as I could. And then, I started applying for jobs. I probably applied for like 200 jobs, and I didn’t hear back from any. Joseph: Okay. This is all in the UK? Julia: [19:41] This was partly in the UK, and then we moved. My husband’s last job in the military before I retired was in the U.S. We were in North Carolina, so it was kind of overlapping that time. We moved to the U.S., and I’m still looking for remote work. Where we ended up in North Carolina, the closest place where I could have worked in an office doing anything tech-related was about an hour away. I didn’t want to commute that long, so I’m still applying for remote jobs and nothing’s coming through. It was really, really discouraging as you can imagine. Here, I’d learned all these skills and I thought I was doing all the right things, and no one would even glance at my resume. It was only when a colleague of my husband’s, retired from the military, and he was starting his own business. He said to me, “You know, I know you know how to build websites. Will you build mine?” I said to him, “That’s not a real thing.” I said, “You know I can’t do that.” I had every excuse possible, and he convinced me. Sure enough, I did. I built his website and he loved it. He said, “Why don’t you do this? Why don’t you start your own business? Working with other business owners who need websites, and need tech help, and all that?” I pushed back, but I finally gave it a go. That was the start of me building my agency which then led into me transitioning into education. Now, I teach women how to do exactly what I did build an online business. They can do from anywhere. They can work as much as they want, as little as they want, building websites, learning to code, troubleshooting, problem-solving. Anything tech-related, they can do because they know how to code. They know how to problem-solve. They have the confidence, and that’s what I get to do now every day. Joseph: You’re actually coaching these women on the actual services that you were once providing to your clients, like building websites and helping them with the technical side of things. Is that right? Julia: [21:44] Exactly. What I’m a big believer in now is it took me years to learn the skills to have the confidence and the gumption to put myself out there and to find clients and build a business, years. What I’m trying to do for them is cut that time way down to months. One thing that I did not have when I was learning and building the business was a community. Everything took me so much longer because I didn’t have anyone to bounce ideas off of, or ask questions, or get , or just get another set of eyes on some code that wasn’t working. You know you can go cross-eyed looking at it. Someone else can go, “Oh, it’s just this small thing here.” When I wanted to do something and educate and get into the kind of teaching realm, my priority, my main thing was creating a community. The program, teaching them the skills, WordPress development specifically, and all the tech that goes along with that, was secondary to the community. It was pretty much everything that I wish that I had when I was going through the process is what I’ve created. Joseph: This is a good segue into the next topic I was hoping to cover with you, Julia, which is how you built up your business. What I’d like to focus on is how you built up your community. Because it sounds like you did go through that whole process of and I guess struggling through the process of trying to find your clients, build up your business. How exactly did you build the community? Julia: [23:20] It goes back to October of 2018. We just hit three years of the community. To be honest, it was a lot of my time. As I mentioned at the beginning, something that I’ve been working on a lot recently is a better work-life balance because I didn’t have that when I first started the community. It’s a Facebook group, it’s a private Facebook group for who ed the program, and it worked great. I mean, thank you, Mark Zuckerberg, for being able to use that platform. Because people are already there. It’s a great platform to be able to use that. Honestly, the first year and a half, I was in there every single day as often as possible answering questions, ing people, going live, providing as much value as possible. I think that’s one of the lessons that I learned early on when I got into setting up an online business. Whether I was trying to find my own clients or working with students is adding value. Coming to the table with value first rather than asking for something. I have a coach who I learned from and that’s what she always did, was lead with value. I’ve followed that, and every single thing that I do, I try my hardest to lead value because I want people to see that there is real value. We’re not we’re not just asking for money or whatever. Look at this value that we will provide for no cost. If it’s something that you think you might enjoy and get a kick out of and want to learn more, great! We have those opportunities. But any opportunity to lead with value — and that’s what I’ve always done in the community is try and be as valuable as possible. Any experience that I’ve had in the past that I can share with them, and my community , like I am very honest and transparent with them. The number of times that I will cry when I’m on a live telling them about something that didn’t work or did work, or wins and things, lessons learned. I’ve had a lot of amazing wins, and I’ve learned a lot of lessons over the years, and I share all of that with my community. I try and be as transparent and authentic as possible, and just lead with value. Those are the things that I’ve done, and it’s worked. Now, as I said at the beginning, I’m able to focus on my team because they then pour all their value into the community. I now have that barrier where I can focus on my team and then they focus on the community so that we kind of have a triangle effect. That’s worked well. Leading with value is probably the best thing I’ve ever done. Joseph: I’ve gone through a bit of a journey myself with this whole community idea. I love the idea of building a community of followers and engaged people who are sharing ideas, and asking questions, and having this community forum. I attempted this myself a few years ago, and I found it very challenging, Julia. I when I even explored some plug-ins on my site. I think there are a couple like hips Pro, and there’s another one called I think BuddyPress, and like MemberPress on my WordPress site. What did you find to be the most challenging part of building up a community? Julia: [26:52] I honestly think it was just the amount of time that I spent in there personally. There is a lot of blood, sweat, and tears that goes into it initially to get it working well. Once that was working, I could bring in other team who felt as strongly about the community, the mission, our core values, and our vision as I did, to take my place so that I could focus on other things. There’s a lot of sweat equity that went into that community. I believe that if you want a solid community like that, you got to be willing to put in that time or pay someone else to put in the time. But if you want to be the face, a face for people to kind of rally around, then it is a lot of time to put in. Joseph: Helpful to know. It’s become very clear to me why my community didn’t get built up online because I guess those couple things you mentioned is just like another platform. I was on a platform I think called “Rainmaker,” which I don’t know if you’ve heard of it. It was very complicated to use, and I did not have much luck attracting people into that community of s. Also, just the time of just monitoring it and managing it, and I just didn’t have the bandwidth to do it. It sounds like there’s really no replacement for hard work and getting in there every day and engaging with people. That’s a good tip. Okay. Before I talk about some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way of your career journey, Julia, I can’t let you go without asking you a few questions about websites. Because we do have listeners here who listen to the show, and they’re thinking about making a change. I just read an article in the Wallstreet Journal about record numbers of people leaving the corporate world to run their own businesses, or to work for themselves, or to become their own bosses. Part of that is having your own website. I when I first started my business as a career coach, a lot of other coaches at the time — this was around 2013, I said I didn’t have to have a website which I thought as someone myself who focuses on personal branding, I thought that was poor advice. I feel like if you’re running your own business, you absolutely have to have a website. What would you say to someone who’s thinking about building a website and wrestling with whether they should do it themselves or whether they should hire someone else to do it for them? I ask this as someone myself who has done both. Julia: [29:29] I would say it comes down to time and budget. If you have the time and you do not have the budget to get someone else to do it — I say budget and that’s very broad. The prices range from $500 to $50 grand. People always ask me, “How much does it cost to build a website?” Well, it depends on the functionality and what you’re trying to get out of it, and then experience level and all that. Time and budget are what it comes down to. If you don’t have the time and you have budget, then hire it out because it can be super frustrating. I mean the amount of times I do this for a living, and the amount of times that I want to pull my hair out is remarkable. I can only imagine other people trying to build their own website. Regardless of platform, it can be incredibly frustrating. I would just say time and budget really depends. Joseph: Have you noticed any common pitfalls that people tend to make when they are creating their first website? Julia: [30:35] Updating, not maintaining the website after it is up and running. Particularly with WordPress. Because WordPress is a free platform which is awesome. It’s opensource, it’s free. Now, I say that lightly because if you want a website on the internet, you do have to rent space on the internet through a hosting provider and you have to have a domain name, www.geekpack.co, for example, that you also pay for. It can be super low cost. But with WordPress, because it is opensource, it’s constantly being updated. There are plugins, there’s themes, there’s core files, there’s PHP. There are so many things that have to be updated. WordPress gets hacked all the time. It is the most popular website building platform, period. Like 45% of all websites in the world are built with WordPress. It’s only growing. It’s only becoming more and more popular. But because it’s so popular, hackers are constantly trying to put malware into different applications. All of that can be avoided so long as you just do some simple things like updating everything that needs to be updated with the WordPress site: the plugins, the themes, all the core files, a way of having security. Whether that’s with your hosting provider or a free security plugin. My favorite is called “Wordfence.” Joseph: That’s what I use. Good. Julia: [32:02] Yes. It’s a good one. Joseph: It’s the right one. Good. Julia: [32:05] And having backups regular backups. Again, some hosting providers do those, but there’s also a free plug-in called UpdraftPlus, which does backups. You’re set. Those are the amount of times I would clean up hacked websites was ridiculous. I teach my students how to do that because it’s a lucrative thing to know because it happens so often, but it doesn’t have to. It’s 10 minutes a month sort of job to not have to deal with all the headaches. Joseph: I can vouch for that, Julia. Because my web guys are constantly trying to remind me that we need to go in and just make sure everything’s updated on my site. I always ask them, “Do we really have to do this on a monthly basis?” They said, “Yeah, you really should.” And then, I don’t listen to them and then something breaks my website, and this is happening repeatedly. Last question about websites, and I do want to get back to your career and what you’ve learned along the way. You mentioned “website building platforms.” Now, the way I think about this as a layperson is you’ve got these out-of-the-box solutions like Squarespace or Wix. And then, you’ve got I don’t even know what you call it, but you’ve got more of the WordPress platform which is as you mentioned opensource. Probably takes a little bit more work if you don’t have any knowledge of coding or HTML. Do you have any perspectives or opinions on if somebody’s doing their first site whether they should be on something like a Squarespace or Wix, or if they should be on WordPress? Julia: [33:31] Shy away from Wix. Squarespace is a fantastic platform. It serves a great purpose. It is -friendly. It’s easy. You pay a certain amount. It is more expensive than WordPress. You pay a certain amount and just drag and drop, and everything is done, and the setup and everything. However, I love WordPress. As I said, the popularity of WordPress is only growing. I do have some gripes with it. It is not -friendly. I don’t know why they make it so complicated. I say it’s complicated. If someone who knows WordPress can show you around and explain it, you would have this light bulb moment of, “Oh! I got it. It’s not as hard as I thought,” sort of thing. But they don’t make it all that easy out of the box. People have, “You know I got so many Instagram followers!” If you rely on external platforms for clients, for students, for marketing, for whatever, you could lose that option at any given moment. Facebook can go down, Instagram, like all of those things can shut down. The example is if you look at Shopify, Squarespace, Wix, Weebly, those are external platforms where technically you own your website, but if you want to take your website and all your files and all your data kind of off of their platform, it is very, very complicated. Moving from one platform to another is time-consuming and complicated, and it’s not easy at all. But with WordPress, you can literally take your website, you can put in a suitcase, and you can walk over to another hosting platform, and you can put it there. You can have all of your website files on your desktop computer. You can have them all on your Google Drive as a backup. You own your data and you have it in a neat little suitcase that you can take anywhere. Whereas, with the others, you could lose that at any moment. Just like with Facebook and it going down in the world, and the world stopping. That’s just a plug for it. On top of that, it is scalable. On WordPress, you could have a one-page website, or you could have a Fortune 500, billion-dollar company on there using it and it works. You can have eCommerce. You can sell products. Pretty much anything you can imagine. You can do on WordPress. And because the code is opensource, if you know how to code and you know the ins and outs of WordPress, you can customize it. That’s why I love it. Joseph: Everything you just said, Julia, I wish I would have heard about seven years ago when I went with one of these platforms. I mentioned I was on Rainmaker and getting off that platform was a complete nightmare. It was the bane of my existence for a year, and it was very complicated. I went over to WordPress, and never again. I will always remain with WordPress from here on out. Very useful advice and I can personally vouch for everything you’ve just said. Very helpful. The last thing I want to talk about with you, Julia, before we wrap up with one of the interesting initiatives you’ve got at GeekPack is just some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way of your very unique career journey, going from the military over to what you’re doing right now at GeekPack. You mentioned that when you were going through that process of applying to jobs, you said something like applying to 200 applications. Looking back on that experience, is there anything that you would have done differently? Julia: [37:08] I think now it’s a lot more common, especially with COVID, to work remote or to start your own business. I wish that I had given myself a little bit more credit and thought outside the box. I didn’t really know anything different at the time. I don’t think that I could have done much different. I didn’t have a degree. Could I have gone back to school and got a computer science degree? I guess I could have, but I’m so glad I didn’t. Other than just believing in myself a little bit more, it was just one of those experiences that I needed to go through. That was part of my journey to get to where I am now. To be able to tell that to my students that there is so much more, and they can do so much more than they ever thought. I didn’t think outside the box, so I try to help them think outside the box as much as possible. Joseph: The other thing that you mentioned earlier was that, when we spoke before, we started recording. You mentioned that you had no idea that you could even run an online business. What surprised you the most about creating and running your own online business that is geographically agnostic and independent? Julia: [38:27] I think the thing that surprised me the most was that there were actual real human people out there who would take a chance on me and pay me to do a service for them. That blew me away. I did I just didn’t think that would be a thing to know that someone else would say yes to me to do something for them that I’d taught myself to do. I’m still kind of like, “Oh, wow! Yeah, that really happened.” Joseph: The last thing I want to wrap up with is just one of the very interesting initiatives that you’ve got going on at GeekPack. Can you tell me a little bit more about the “Geek for Geek Initiative”? Julia: [39:07] This is the thing I’m so excited about. We just recently launched this. What it is I always thought that my dream for GeekPack would be to keep doing what we’re doing. But if I could eventually one day start a non-profit arm to GeekPack, that would just be dream come true. I spoke to a couple of people about setting up a non-profit and come to find out it’s a real pain to set up to run, to manage, all the bureaucracy and everything that goes along with it. I thought, “Oh, well, that’s a shame.” In any way that I could give back, I wanted to do, and I felt kind of deflated. I was listening to a podcast with Blake Mikowski. I’m not sure if I’m pronouncing his last name correctly. He’s the founder of TOM’s shoes. This is the company where they gave lots of shoes. If you buy a pair of shoes, they give a pair of shoes to children in need. This is a one-for-one model. Now, he didn’t create the one-for-one model, but he definitely popularized it. It became huge. When I heard this interview with him, I thought to myself, “Well, hang on. Why would I create a non-profit that has all this extra bureaucracy when I’m in the very fortunate position to be able to have my for-profit business and give back in a social entrepreneur way? I don’t have to be governed. It’s my choice because I am able to and because I want to.” I took his idea, ran with it, and went with a program called “Geek for Geek.” It’s a real good example of taking imperfect action. I am a recovering perfectionist, and this is a good example of something that I’ve done. Of course, I want the Geek for Geek program to be kind of set up exactly right and how it’s going to run forever. But I know that’s not realistic and I’ve learned that over the years. We recently had an event a couple months ago called “Geekapalooza.” We got to launch the Geek for Geek Initiative during this event. As you can tell, there’s a lot of “geeks” that goes into my brand. It’s a great thing to get behind. I’m based in Colorado, and there’s an international non-profit called “Dress for Success.” They work with women in lower-income kind of situations and financial struggles. Initially, they started a non-profit to provide them with suits and kind of business attire to go in for interviews. They’ve expanded since then, and they women who need and help when it comes to finding work, or starting a business, and getting promotions, and things like that. I reached out to them in Denver. I just said, “Hey, you know I’d like to launch this program. Would you be willing to partner?” Sure enough, they said yes! We got to take 20 women from Dress for Success, we got to invite them into my WordPress development program, teaching them how to build websites and start their own online business. We got to do that back in October. It was just such a joy to get to do that. They’re now learning these skills that they wouldn’t normally get to. We invited them in, free of charge. That’s an initiative that we plan on continuing on. If I could plug anything, it would be if anyone knows many non-profits that work with women, to empower them, to women who are in tough financial situations that just need a bit of help and a bit of , I would love to partner with them in the Geek for Geek Initiative. Joseph: If they want to learn more about you or if we’ve got listeners who want to learn more about GeekPack or the Geek for Geek Initiative, where’s the best place that they can go? Julia: [43:09] My website, geekpack.co, is the best place to go. Joseph: I got one more question I’m going to sneak in here, Julia. Because I’m listening to you describe all these cool initiatives that you’ve created, not only creating GeekPack, but also this Geek for Geek initiative, I know earlier you mentioned that you never thought that you were going to become an entrepreneur. I’m just curious, what have you learned about yourself along the way of your very interesting and entrepreneurial journey? Julia: [43:37] That I am a lot stronger and more resilient than I ever gave myself credit for. Even with the job that I did for the government and in all the things that I did after that. Running a business, and having a team, and having a brand that I’m incredibly proud of the brand and the people I get to work with, and the community that I get to have. As uncomfortable as it is to say, the lives that we get to change. I’m uncomfortable saying it because it feels a little big-headed, and that’s never at all what I want to sound. But that’s what I get to do all the time. I never, years ago, would have thought that I could do that, that I could empower women, but I am a lot stronger and a lot more resilient than I ever gave myself credit. That’s something I have to remind myself of regularly. It’s very easy to focus on the negative or things that don’t go well. But I do try and reflect and think back and be proud of what I’ve built, and be proud of my team, and the community that we have, and the women that we get to teach and see their wins and the constant, “I just landed my biggest client!” Or “I now make more than I ever did in my day job!” Testimonials like that is because I took a chance on myself, and it’s worked out well. Joseph: It does sound like you’re having a huge impact on a lot of people out there, Julia. I just got to commend you for all the work that you’re doing. I just wanted to thank you so much for taking time out of your very busy schedule to tell us more about your life as an intelligence officer formerly and the steps you took to pave a new path in your career, and how you went about building a community of engaged women empowered to code and help others create their own websites. Best of luck with GeekPack, and the Geek for Geek Initiative, and the continually growing community that you’ve built. Julia: [45:41] Thank you very much. It’s been an absolute pleasure.

How much should a company’s culture factor into your decision to work there? A lot it turns out. Civil engineer turned software developer Aimi Elias explains the importance of feeling like you fit into your workplace and the role culture plays in your day-to-day job satisfaction. Afterwards, I’ll share my own thoughts on how culture has had an impact on me during my own professional pivots. Aimi’s actually a long-time listener of this show, and we first connected when she dropped me a note last year mentioning how Career Relaunch podcast episode 8 (featuring Zai Divecha) got her thinking about her own moments of flow, including those moments when she lost track of time as a teenager tinkering around with code. Now, many years later, she’s tapped back into her own flow state working on software development and machine learning at Sky. Key Career Takeaways Although a job can sound “cool” and interesting on paper, it doesn’t mean the day-to-day realities of that work will necessarily be interesting to you. The cultural influences of your company can have a huge impact on your day-to-day satisfaction and comfort in a job. While securing a sought-after certification or credential in your field may seem like a way of dealing with job dissatisfaction, it only goes so far if you’re still fundamentally misplaced in the wrong sector. Tweetables to Share I didn't realise how much of my identity was tied to my career until I changed careers. Aimi Elias Tweet This Resources Interested in shifting into a tech career? Learn more about Sky’s Get into Tech programme that Aimi mentioned. Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel segment, I talked about the importance of considering whether your current job is moving you closer to or farther from the type of person you want to be in your life and career. Do you like the person you’re becoming? Or do you feel more like you’re having to put on an act to fit into your role or organisation by being someone you’re not? If you feel like your work is turning you into someone you don’t like, aside from actually leaving that job behind, consider what change you could make to your way of working, your mindset about work, or your attitude toward your job that could enable you to live your life in a way that makes you proud, or at the very least, you won’t eventually regret in the long run. About Aimi Elias Aimi Elias is a software developer at Sky, part of the Comcast Corporation, and one of Europe’s leading media and entertainment companies. Prior to this, she spent six years working as a civil engineer after graduating from Imperial College, when she worked for Transport For London, the government body responsible for most of the transport network in London, England. She worked on railway projects such as the Crossrail and station upgrades for the London Underground. Then, in 2017, she ed the Get Into Tech programme, a 14 week introduction to software development run by Sky alongside her full time job. This eventually led acceptance into a graduate programme at Sky, where she is a now a backend Python developer for Sky’s e-commerce platform for their online streaming service. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare, Tweet to let me and Aimi know! Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow Career Relaunch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android to automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow Career Relaunch on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to BrandYourself for ing the Career Relaunch® podcast A2 Hosting allows you to offers simple tools and services to help control what people find when they Google you. To clean up, protect, and improve how you look online, visit BrandYourself.com and use promo code ‘RELAUNCH’ to get 50% off a hip. Interview Segment Music Credits Arden Forest – Slow Moves Two Rivers – Ciaran Delany Paintings – Ookean Presence – Ambientalism Trellis – Podington Bear Episode Interview Transcript Teaser (first ~15s): I’ve been a minority all my life in wherever I go. I’m kind of used to it. The difference is when it’s affecting directly how people perceive you in a career sense, all of a sudden, it feels very loud. Aimi: [02:37] Thanks for having me. Joseph: I want to talk about a lot of different things with you today. We’re going to talk about your career in civil engineering, and then also your shift to coding in a completely different industry. I was wondering if you could start off by first of all just telling me what’s been keeping you occupied in your life, both work and also personal lately. Aimi: [02:56] I currently work for Sky as a back-end developer. I work on the e-commerce platform for their online streaming service. We deal with the catalog of products and offers that customers can purchase from wherever they are in different territories. For example, in the UK Island and some European countries, provide content for Sky, and in the US, we provide content by NBCU, that’s NBC Universal. In my spare time, particularly the last two years, I’ve been working on my MSC, part-time. This is an MSC in Computer Science, as I don’t have a background in computer science. I decided to do this to upskill myself. I didn’t know at the time that we would be in the midst of all of this craziness, but it helped that I could spend more time on it at home. I’ve just finished that, and I’m glad that section of life is over and I don’t have to sit any more academic exams. That’s what I’ve been working on mostly. Joseph: Can you also just tell me a little bit about your background? Aimi: [04:08] My family are from Malaysia. They came to London I think in 1982. My parents met here as young people like on a course, and they ended up staying here. Myself and my brother were both born in London. Joseph: Let’s just go back in time a little bit. Because you haven’t always been a software developer. Could you tell me a little bit about your 6-year career in civil engineering, which is what you were doing before? And then, we could move forward from there. Aimi: [04:37] I graduated in civil engineering at Imperial. It’s the kind of degree where you immediately have a lot of opportunities in of jobs. The natural progression seemed to be get a job in civil engineering. I had spent every summer working in a design consultancy, so it didn’t seem like a bad idea considering I had some work experience to try that. However, when I graduated, it was 2010, and jobs was becoming quite scarce. We had the recession at that time. Nothing like what people are experiencing right now I’m sure, but it was still one of those times where it was quite difficult. When I did manage to get a job at Transport for London, I obviously took it because you couldn’t exactly complain. Joseph: Transport for London is a TFL, I guess. It’s the largest government provider of transportation services in the country. Aimi: [05:39] That’s right. Transport for London, look after London Underground, the buses, the cycle hire scheme and the cycle superhighways, for example. A lot of roads in London, they cover a lot of bases. I was positioned in London Underground, the London Underground graduate scheme, which was a 3-year graduate scheme. I met people of my own age who had also left university. Having done civil engineering, it was a scheme where I managed to do lots of different things and it was really interesting. I worked on Crossrail, which is a brand new railway line that transports people from east to west London. On London Underground, station upgrades, and I could have talked all day about how cool it was. People thought my job was really cool, but the day-to-day reality of it wasn’t that interesting to me. I just sort of went with it. All the signs were saying, “Oh, you’re doing really well.” People will tell me, “You’re doing really well. Just keep going. It’s fine.” My parents would say, “Oh, you’re doing so…”. You just get all these positive signals that everything’s fine, so you just keep going. The natural route in engineering is to also get charted. Civil engineers get charted with the Institution of Civil Engineers. I did a lot of work with them you know work towards this professional qualification. When I achieved that qualification, nothing was different. I expected I don’t know work to suddenly become more interesting or stuff to be more challenging, but it didn’t happen. Joseph: Is that certification a barrier to entry for more senior roles, or is it like a stamp of approval? Aimi: [07:31] It’s a bit of both. I think for some roles, it can be a barrier to entry. It doesn’t mean that people don’t progress without it. Many experienced engineers do not have this qualification. Sometimes, they take a different route to get there. But there can be jobs that require it as part of their job spec. Joseph: Okay. You’re working on the Crossrail which was probably, in recent years, has been the most major, publicly impactful project to create, that high-speed rail network to connect people outside of London into London. More convenient station upgrades for TFL. That sounds great and exciting on the surface, but you weren’t feeling super satisfied inside. Can you put into words what exactly did you not like about your day-to-day job? Aimi: [08:18] It’s kind of a tricky one to describe because it’s not that the work wasn’t interesting, it’s just that it’s such a huge project that you end up doing quite a small play, a small role on that project. I think it was to do with just the way that I like to problem-solve. On a construction project, you tend to have designers and contractors. Designers would look at the calculations for the design, provide the drawings, the specifications. Contractors tend to be doing the on-site work. They’ll be doing different jobs on site. I was neither of these. I was a client because Transport for London TFL are a client organization. They give the contracts out to these different companies, to carry out the work for them. A lot of that was me checking that people had done what they needed to do. I had a great overview and strategic outlook on what was happening but wasn’t getting into a lot of that work. Joseph: The study is subject in university, and they may or may not have a deep desire to go into the industry but they do anyway because it’s what makes sense after you get that sort of a degree. In this case, civil engineering. Your day-to-day life isn’t quite as you had hoped it would be. Were you thinking at this point in time maybe I’ll switch to a different organization and try to do something else in civil engineering? What was running through your head when you were experiencing this? Aimi: [09:54] At the time, I was focused on gaining the professional qualification. There was a lot of within TFL to do that so I stayed there until I achieved that qualification. I left TFL for a design consultancy to be a designer properly. It was still Crossrail, which was interesting. I was in a managerial position. I was managing other designers, and it was great because I got that position from gaining my chartership. But then, I realized it wasn’t that fun either. There was a lot of pressure, the environment wasn’t exactly healthy in some ways. I don’t know how to explain it because I was there for such a short time. What happened in that role is that I got made redundant. It forced my hand to look at something else. However, at that time, I had already been looking into coding. A few months before that redundancy happened, I had ed Sky’s “Get Into Tech” course. Joseph: Was this just something that you’d always been interested in doing? Or, how did you pick coding in particular? Aimi: [11:08] When I was a teenager, I used to be tinkering around with personal blogs and changing what my Myspace looked like for hours. Instead of doing my revision, I spent a lot of time messing around with that. At the time, I didn’t know that software development was a career choice. I didn’t have any role models that did this. At school, no one mentioned it. I ed the “Get Into Tech” course because I wanted to reignite that interest that I had years and years ago, just to see what it was like and just to see what people were using these days to code things. I hadn’t really coded anything like a program. It was mostly me messing around with HTML and CSS, which are very like the cosmetic side of changing web pages, and I enjoyed it! I found myself in that zone again, just spending hours and hours trying to solve problems that were set in the class. I did this in my spare time outside of work. Joseph: At what point did you realize that this could turn into something more? Aimi: [12:22] Sky wanted to get more women into tech through this course by introducing them to some basic concepts. Usually, their graduate program does not attract as many women. Mostly because not many women are doing computer science. They offered the opportunity to sit the interview for the graduate program at Sky. I sat the program just to see if I would get in, just to see what kind of things people ask at these things, and they offered it to me. I was in a bit of a dilemma because at that point I didn’t know that that redundancy was coming. I had to decide whether I would leave this career I’d spend like six years building, or to try something totally different. It was quite hard. Joseph: Can you take me back to the moment when you were able to make that decision. How did you come to the level of clarity you needed in order to make the leap? Aimi: [13:24] It was tough. I spoke to so many different people about it. Obviously, my parents being immigrants in this country. They saw it as risky to try and do something which, in hindsight, it’s not that risky. It’s still not a job that has a career path. It’s not like I was saying I’m going to put down all my tools and start a business I know nothing about. My friends had mixed opinions about it. In the end, I decided not to take it because I just felt like, “Oh, I’ve worked really hard at this.” Maybe again, I thought to myself, “Oh, maybe if I give it more time, it will change.” And then, the redundancy happened. I had to go back and ask Sky if they would take me because after that happened, my parents were like, “Yeah, maybe this is the sign that you need to just try it.” Joseph: It doesn’t sound so bad after all, right? I’m not sure if now is the right time to bring this up, but if you’re open to going here in this conversation, something we touched on prior to this recording because you mentioned friends and family, and their influence on your thoughts and your decisions about this particular move. If you’re willing to talk about this, I understand you’re also in a relationship around this time. I think that would be interesting to touch on because clearly, our life at work affects our life outside of work and vice versa. Can you tell me a little bit about what was happening for you outside of work, related to this relationship, and how that influenced your decision making here? Aimi: [14:52] My partner at the time was very ive of a lot of the things I wanted to do. With this particular decision, he helped me a lot in of talking through what the pros and cons were. Whatever decision I made, he was really helpful. However, later on, after I had taken the decision to Sky and become a software developer, a lot of things changed. We met on the TFL grad scheme. He was also a civil engineer. Obviously, I was moving industries and that was a big part of what we spoke about, our work/life. We spoke about in-depth. That all changed. Leading up to that point, everything was fine. He was helping me make these decisions and didn’t hold me back in that respect. It was after that that everything changed. Joseph: Was there anything in particular that changed with the relationship itself after you actually made your career change? Aimi: [16:01] The relationship in its dynamic changed a lot in the lead-up to that huge life change. There were a lot of different behaviors that were coming up in the relationship. It became a lot more toxic. There were certain elements of my relationship that I started to become unhappy with. I would say I don’t think he was aware of it at the time that these things were happening and what that would have meant for our relationship, or even that he would have itted at that time. It was to do with the career change. But I feel like a lot of these things probably came from not feeling in control of how things were moving. Joseph: It sounds like things were going fine with the relationship. And then, you, yourself, evolved away from what had been the status quo, professionally. It sounds like that in some way triggered a change in the dynamic of the relationship. Do you have any sense of why that happened? Why the career move ended up creating this paradigm shift in the relationship itself? Aimi: [17:20] I guess when you change careers like that, it becomes kind of your identity in a way. I don’t know if other people have felt this. But when I changed careers, I didn’t realize how much of my identity was tied to my career. Until I moved and realized that, for example, all the social currency you have when being an organization like this connections, people not knowing who you are, people not already having some idea of whether you’re competent or not. All of that changes. You end up feeling like you’ve really started all over again, and maybe it was me wanting to spend a lot more time with the new people I’d met. It could be suddenly all the things I was talking about were very different. A lot of things become a different focus that are totally new. I think it’s maybe that lack of familiarity, or not being able to empathize with the fact that all of this is a bit scary, and all I’m doing is trying to make sense of this new situation I find myself in. Joseph: I’ve had a very similar experience where I go from one chapter of my career to the next. It’s like the people from the previous chapter, sometimes they come along for the ride. But, especially with acquaintances or colleagues outside of your immediate team, a lot of those relationships can kind of fizzle out. Aimi: [18:51] I would say that some of my friends continued with me for the ride, as you say. I guess the ones that were the closest. But it wasn’t because of the job itself that I’d lost people along the way. It was more to do with how that breakup happened, and what I perceived to be a strong friendship or not based on the stuff I would talk about around the relationship. There are some people who were more understanding when I explained the situation and some people who didn’t have the same tools to respond. That ended up being a separator in this instance. Joseph: I wanted to shift gears here a little bit with some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way. You go from moving through this 14-week introduction program, this “Get Into Tech” program at Sky, into software development. Can you describe what your experience has been, like going from civil engineering into a very different function and role within a very different industry? Aimi: [20:03] The perception of software development is that it would have been just as bad as engineering in of diversity. But, I found that people are more diverse in their personalities than they were in engineering. It’s a tough one to describe, but even though the field is still male-dominated, not as many people of color, the personalities you get are very different. It kind of fits better with me, I guess, in the engineering world. I a conversation I had with a friend of mine who was also on the scheme at the time. I was like anxious about not appearing White enough, or like having to put on this persona, which was White. At that time, I couldn’t explain what those things were. When I tried to, they just sounded like normal things. Like certain ways of communicating or being opinionated because there are things that sound like they’re just traits that you need. But, it’s a certain way of communicating that’s expected of you, that I had to emulate a lot of the time, which wasn’t in my natural personality. Joseph: I do think that you’re bringing up something that does come up a lot. Whether it’s explicit or implicit, there’s this cultural fit with your organization. Sometimes, when people talk about cultural fit, they’re talking about the dynamics of the company whether it’s fast-moving, or entrepreneurial, or if the people are friendly or it’s competitive. There’s another element to it which is actually more related to ethnicity or it’s maybe more related to geography. There could be some mismatches there with the culture. Aimi: [21:50] With ethnicity, I found that I noticed this more as I moved to Sky. The young men who came from an ethnic minority background, I could see them struggling more having conversations with people. And then, I looked back at where I was in engineering and did notice some things as well. But, it’s never spoken about. I felt for them because it’s not an easy one to navigate. At the time, you don’t even know how to describe that feeling where you’re not quite fitting in, culturally, but there’s nothing going wrong necessarily. Joseph: I actually I used to work in the Bay Area, in California, where there’s quite a few Asians. I’m Taiwanese myself, and I never really thought very much about cultural fit. I’ve felt like I generally fit into the overall environment at work. There’s a lot of ethnic and cultural diversity at work. And then, I moving to London, and at both of the companies where I worked, I was a minority in so many different ways. I think when you’re one of, in my case, three Asians along with a handful of other minorities in a company of 180 employees, it’s hard not to feel a little bit like an outlier. It’s hard for that not to affect your overall experience at the company. It’s kind of hard to put that into words, sometimes, both for yourself and also for others. Aimi: [23:17] I’ve been a minority all my life wherever I go. I’m kind of used to it. The difference is when it’s affecting directly in how people perceive you in a career sense, all of a sudden, it feels very loud. For example, I used to go to an Islamic school. I would be the only Southeast Asian person in my year, and maybe one of three or four other students, which were from the Southeast Asian background. When everyone else was Middle Eastern, you kind of don’t realize how much of a deal it is until you sort of leave and you go. That was a bit weird. There was a lot of things that you couldn’t be, you couldn’t share about yourself. People would talk about how their families are. But, in the wider context of London, you’re like, “Oh, I’m with people who are kind of like me, that’s fine.” Then when I met engineering again, like White-dominated. But then, you’re on a university course, you don’t notice. You just need to carry on doing what you’re doing, like other people’s interactions with you don’t affect your grade. But then, all of a sudden, you’re in a job. All of a sudden, what people think of you matters a lot. Joseph: The last thing I was hoping to talk with you about with what you’re doing right now because I understand there’s another role shift that’s coming up for you. When we spoke before. Aimi, you mentioned that you did everything you were supposed to do coming out of civil engineering. But, you still ended up in a career path that wasn’t right for you. What exactly did you mean by that? Aimi: [25:03] The process of doing that job didn’t necessarily fit my natural personality. I felt like I was shifting my personality a lot in order to fit either the type of role or the people I was working with. Software, on the other hand, it has a lot of similarities. But, the cool thing about software is that you can design it, and build it, and see it happen. It’s a lot of problem-solving which I find enjoyable. The kind of problem-solving that happens on big engineering projects depends a lot on your experience and what you’ve seen before. I entered engineering having never had any real experience of being on-site. As a young person, I think a lot of people get into engineering after messing around with a car or being on-site with a friend or a family member. They have these little experiences which exposes them to what it’s actually like, and I didn’t have that. I totally went into it on a theoretical basis trying to use what I knew to help people but it just didn’t suit me. I had to become this person that civil engineering needed to be. Whereas, I’m an actual problem solver and just software suited me better. It’s also the kind of people that software draws to it that I seem to get along with a lot better. It just seemed like a more natural fit as soon as I ed it. Joseph: If you had to give some advice to your younger civil engineering self, as it relates to thinking about your career or changing careers, what might that be? Aimi: [26:57] It would be to unlearn those things that you get taught as a young person, to always listen to what everyone else says. I think I should have listened to my instinct when I was messing around with web pages for hours and hours, and to have followed that. I think a lot of young people tend to have something they’re interested in, but there isn’t anyone to notice that that is something that they can turn into something else. Whether it’s a career or a very important hobby of theirs. Something that they can take forward and do more earnestly in some way, in some creative way or some productive way. I should have listened to my instinct when I ed my civil engineering course because I definitely felt like it wasn’t for me. But, my dad kept telling me, “No, it’s fine. You’re doing really well.” I don’t think my younger self would have listened to my advice either because my dad would have been on the other side going, “No, no, no, just stay where you are.” I think that comes out of being from an immigrant family who just wants the best for their kids and to just persevere with opportunities that have been presented to them. Not realizing that other opportunities may also turn up as well. Joseph: Absolutely. I think that that does come up a lot with immigrant families. As someone, myself, who grew up in the United States after my parents immigrated there, primarily for me and my sister, I think that there is always this desire to make their immigration and them transplanting themselves across the world worth it. Last question, having been through this career change, what’s one thing you’ve learned about yourself? Aimi: [28:47] One of the things I have noticed is that the tasks or jobs I enjoy the most tend to be things that help other people out. I used to do volunteer work, looked at international development and stuff when I was at university. I got ionate about that. Now that you mention it, the projects I enjoy the most in my software career are the ones where I’m helping people do their job a lot better. I get that buzz from someone using something, and it’s made their life a lot easier. Joseph: I think that’s a nice com to keep in mind for the rest of your career as you look forward and think about what you want to do next. I understand you’re about to make another shift within Sky. Can you tell me a little bit more about your new role there? Aimi: [29:41] I did my MSc in Computer Science, and my dissertation was around machine learning. I tried to combine my previous experience with the new things I had learned. I applied machine learning to construction data. Whilst I was doing that, I thought more about where I’d like to go next. Within Sky, we have a team that creates a platform for data scientists to run their machine learning models. This year, I started talking to that team, and then was successful in selection to them. I’m ing that team in a week’s time, and it’s really exciting! It’s not a bigger pivot as what I had done from civil engineering to software, but it’s certainly a pivot in of what I do now to what they’ll be doing in that team.

Beyond the humanitarian crisis resulting from the Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, the war there has also taken a huge toll on Ukrainians’ careers and professional lives. In Career Relaunch® podcast episode 82, Roman Havrysh, owner of the Aimbulance marketing agency in Ukraine and lecturer at Kyiv Mohyla Business School, fled Kyiv after the war began. He describes his story of trying to remain afloat both personally and professionally amid the destruction and tragedy there. We’ll talk about what’s happened to his agency, team, and own perspectives on his professional future there. I’ll also share my thoughts on resilience during times of crisis. Key Career Takeaways Even under the most challenging of circumstances, it may still be possible to take some small steps to pivot, adapt, and survive. During times of crisis, you have to decide how you want to fight for your life and career. If you don’t do something about your situation, you might lose everything. Preoccupying yourself with something significant in your life can actually help you cope with volatility in the world around you. Tweetables to Share You have decide how you want to fight for your life and career. You have to find a way to survive. Roman Havrysh Tweet This Work can provide some normalcy in times when everything else seems uncertain. Joseph Liu Tweet This Call for donations to 🇺🇦Ukraine The millions of Ukrainians who have had to flee and leave their lives and careers behind due to this unprovoked attack on their country are really not all that different from me or those around me in the UK just trying to live their lives, make their professional contribution to society, and give their kids a happy childhood. Please do your part in providing assistance to these displaced families by making a donation today on my fundraising page at https://careerrelaunch.net/ukraine. As of this recording, we’ve already raised over £3000, which includes my own contribution of £1400. Any amount, no matter how big or small, can make a huge difference to the lives of Ukrainians. DONATE TODAY Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel segment, I talked about figuring out what battle you’re fighting right now. For those in Ukraine, this may be finding shelter, staying alive, and/or keeping your business afloat during an actual war. For someone else out there, it may be more of a battle you’re having with your manager, your organisation, or the environment around you. And for others, it may be more of a figurative battle you’re having with yourself–your own history, your own demons, or your own limiting beliefs. Whatever battle you’re waging right now, ask yourself whether it’s worth it to keep going. Whether the eventual payoff is worth it. And if you do belive it is, to not feel like you have to figure it all out today or even this month, but instead to take a small action today, and another one tomorrow, and another one the next day, knowing and trusting that you WILL gain some momentum, however slow or fast, to eventually get where you want to go. About Roman Havrysh, Owner of Aimbulance Marketing Agency Roman Havrysh is a Ukrainian entrepreneur and the owner of the Aimbulance marketing agency. He was born in a small village near Ivano-Frankivsk, a city in the West of Ukraine. His first major life-changing experience occurred during the collapse of the Soviet Union back in 1991 at the age of 11. When the Soviet planned economy changed gears to a free economy, many people lost their jobs, including both of Roman’s parents. So he started working in the fields, growing vegetables and crops, to help feed his family. Then, his family spent all their savings (the equivalent of $500 US dollars) to send him to study in one of the oldest universities in Eastern Europe – the National University Kyiv Mohyla Academy, where he studied political science. To earn money, he started working during his second year there as a political analyst on the side. He eventually got his Bachelor’s degree, enrolled in a magister’s program, got married, and was expecting his first child. So he quit his university and political analyst’s position to find a better-paid job. In 2004, he eventually became one of the first digital marketing experts in Ukraine working for the mobile service provider UMC, and later, the eventual media holding company owners invited him to become CEO and minor shareholder of Brainberry, the digital media buying house within the holding. Four years later, he created Aimbulance, an strategic marketing agency focused on marketing research, design, implementation, and media buying. Before the war broke out in Ukraine last month, Aimbulance was a leading, award-winning agency in Ukraine known for their strategic approach to solving clients’ problems. Now, with the war in Ukraine, their business is at risk of closure because most of their Ukrainian clients have had to cancel all the projects. Roman and his agency are trying to reinvent themselves and become a truly international marketing agency seeking clients worldwide. If you’re interested in discussing a marketing project with them, you can Aimbulance or write to Roman at [email protected], +380671268777, or PM him on LinkedIn. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare, Tweet to let me and Roman know! Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow Career Relaunch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android to automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow Career Relaunch on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to BrandYourself for ing the Career Relaunch® podcast A2 Hosting allows you to offers simple tools and services to help control what people find when they Google you. To clean up, protect, and improve how you look online, visit BrandYourself.com and use promo code ‘RELAUNCH’ to get 50% off a hip. Interview Segment Music Credits Reflexions – Joseph Beg Lucky Stars – Podington Bear Soaring – Brendon Moeller Tarnish – Podington Bear Loam – Podington Bear It’s OK – Rippled Stone Episode Interview Transcript Teaser (first ~15s): Leaving Kyiv was the hardest part. You were faced with all this terror and people fleeing and screaming and crying, and that was really not the best place to be. We don’t know what’s going to happen in the next 24 hours. Joseph: Before we start, I should just make it clear that this is a show focused on career topics. This is not a world affair show. I am not a news reporter, and I don’t typically get into geopolitical topics here. But, today is going to be a little different from my other episodes. We’re recording this on March 22nd. Almost exactly a month after the Russian invasion of Ukraine which is now being called the fastest-growing humanitarian crisis since World War II, according to the UN. This show is focused on career changes. We are going to talk about how this war has affected your career, team, and marketing agency. I got to first ask you about your personal situation. Can you start by describing, first of all, exactly where you are right now in Ukraine? Roman: [06:58] I’m in the west of Ukraine. I’m pretty safe, if you can call it that way because you are hearing the air raid alarms like two, three times a day. That’s kind of not very pleasant things to hear during the day. Usually, it’s okay. No bombings so far, just two, let’s say. Not “no bombings,” just two of them got here. Two of the rockets got here and hit the airport, but the rest of the city is pretty safe and pretty okay. I hope everything is fine. Joseph: Just so I understand, where you are, geographically, you left Kyiv. Which city are you in right now? Roman: [07:41] It’s Slovyansk City. It’s a different city. I fled the Kyiv. I left Kyiv like almost three weeks ago. I’m here in a different place because Kyiv is a way more dangerous now than Slovyansk. Joseph: Can you describe what was happening in Kyiv before you left? What was happening around there at the time? Roman: [08:02] We just woke up with the sound of air-raid alarm, and bombings, and shellings, and gun shootings. We immediately took off and gather all the, not all the belongings, some of them. Just small suitcases, jumped into the car, and rushed here. That was what’s happening. Joseph: How far are you away from your actual home right now? Roman: [08:28] Seven hundred kilometers away. Joseph: Wow. I was reading some figures in the news and the exact figures vary depending on the source. But, it seems like there have been hundreds of residential buildings, schools, hospitals that have been directly damaged or attacked since this invasion began. How secure is the area where you are? At least, at this moment. Roman: [08:54] At least, at this moment, it’s okay. Because, as I mentioned, only the airport was hit during let’s say last two or three weeks. The rest of the city is pretty okay because it’s in the west, and we are close to Polish border. They probably are afraid of bombing it too hard, not to invoke any geopolitical crisis on involve NATO. That’s basically it. But, the east of Ukraine is really torn into pieces, especially three or two major cities, Mariupol and Kharkiv, are almost destroyed. Mariupol is almost destroyed. Joseph: As of this week, according to the UNHCR, which is the United Nations Refugee Agency, with all this destruction that’s been happening, a quarter of Ukrainians have now been displaced from their homes which is about 10 million people. Of the over 3 million people who have had to leave Ukraine, 90% of those are women and children. And, according to UNICEF, you’ve got nearly 5 million children who have either become refugees or have been displaced within Ukraine. Would you mind just explaining what your personal situation is, and your family’s situation? Roman: [10:11] I left with my children, my two daughters. I’m now here with them at my father’s place. They are with their grandpa, and it’s okay for them. It’s just a family reunion because I’m originally from this city. That is kind of a bit of more comfort than most of the Ukrainians because they left homes, and I’m with my father, and my daughters are with their grandfather, so they are kind of okay about it. Joseph: Can I just also ask how old are your daughters, and how are they coping with it? Roman: [10:48] 16 and 18 years old. Joseph: I guess kids are resilient, right? Roman: [10:54] Well, they’re teenage girls. They are a bit emotional about all this, and that’s not very good thing. Joseph: Before we go back in time, Roman, and talk about your life before this war broke out, is there anything else you want to say about the current situation there before we start talking about your career? Roman: [11:16] Well, I don’t know. I’m hearing some strange noises now, and I presume it’s just our airborne forces trying to maintain the sky clear for now. Joseph: Thank you so much for telling us about what’s going on around you right now. I’m going to attempt to switch gears here. I know that this might be a little difficult, but you haven’t always been in the middle of what’s unfortunately become a war zone. There’s going to be kind of a strange shift to do at this moment because there’s literally fighting going on in your country. But, can you just take me back to the days before this war started? Let’s just maybe talk about where you were situated for someone who’s never been to Kyiv before this invasion. Can you just paint a picture of what the capital city was like as a professional there? Roman: [12:11] It’s a major city with 3 million people living there and working there. A lot of different businesses, very vibrant city, a lot of festivals, music festivals, churches, museums. It’s a very vibrant, very alive city. Not like today, like now. I came there like 22 years ago to study. From that time, I lived there and had my career built there. Also switched the career a few times. If you’re about switching careers, it also happens to be. But still, in Kyiv was like the most interesting in of business and career-building place to be in Ukraine. Very vibrant, very dynamic, very business oriented as well. Joseph: You mentioned career changes there. Could you give me a quick overview of your career journey? I understand that you’re currently working in marketing, but you’ve also spent some time lecturing at a business school before starting your current agency. Could just walk me through a little bit just your career history? Roman: [13:24] I have a degree in political science. I started my career as a political analyst. I was working as a political analyst for two and a half years. And then, I switched because the payment was not sufficient enough to sustain my new family. Because early in my career I got married and I had almost immediately two kids. That was a harsh thing to do because I’m originally from a poor family and I needed let’s say a good work to sustain and to provide for my family. That’s basically why I needed to change my career. I switched from political analysis to marketing. Marketing during that time, and probably now, is better paid off. I switched to marketing, and I started working in the mobile operator as a digital marketing specialist back in 2003. It was like early in the digital marketing age. I was among the first who entered this domain and started to build some career in digital marketing. Joseph: How did you get involved with the business school there in Kyiv? Roman: [14:43] This business school is connected with my alma mater, National University of Kyiv-Mohyla Academy. I had close ties over the dean office there. I just came there and said, “You have your marketing courses, but you don’t have digital there. I’m one of the first in Ukraine who’s proficient with digital marketing and expert in this. I can share some knowledge. If you are interested, take me as your lecturer.” They agreed because they needed this kind of field of expertise to be covered and they hired me as a lecturer. Since then, with already 13 years, I’m a lecturer at the business school. Joseph: Wow. You’re doing that while you’re also running your agency, “Aimbulance.” Is that correct? Can you tell me a little bit about what prompted you to found your own agency? Also, a little bit about Aimbulance. Roman: [15:43] As I started my job as a digital marketing expert, I quickly got one of the best in digital because no one was there at the moment, so I became noticed by other companies, agencies. One of the owners of digital marketing agency, invited me to become the head of the agency and to run digital agencies. That was my first major career shift or second major career shift. From just a management role, I switched to the senior management role and became also a minor shareholder of the agency. That agency called “Brainberry.” We did digital marketing strategies, and media buying, and media planning for digital. That was my second shift. And then, I wanted to develop this into more sophisticated ways of helping our clients because we noticed that the digital marketing, you have limited capacity in helping businesses. My internal motto is to help people as much as I can, I tried to think of strategy of strategic marketing of creative work. My partners there in the previous agency didn’t want to expand their field of expertise, and I had to leave with my colleagues. We parted from the previous agency, created our own agency, Aimbulance. There, we started to focus more on strategic marketing efforts, and started to do research, qualitative quantitative research, to do analytics to help out businesses in wider range of services and expertise. Joseph: Let’s just kind of go back to late 2021. What were you focused on in your career and at Aimbulance at the time? It might seem like a lifetime ago now. But, what was happening at that moment for you? Roman: [17:50] We were focused on changing a bit business processes within the agency because I bought the shares from my previous partners. Now, I’m the only owner of the agency and we needed to restructure a bit and change the business process and/or business model even. That was what we were preoccupied with, changing gears, business-wise. Also, with building our clientele, our client base, and expand. We are now number fifth in Ukraine, according to the r’s choice ranking. We wanted to be third or second, so that was our strategy in the coming years. Joseph: It sounds like what anybody in any top agency would be trying. You’re working with your clients, you’re thinking about the optimal organizational strategy for your agency, making a difference out there. That’s a glimpse into how things used to be. I’d like to kind of transition now and talk a little bit about the invasion of Ukraine which began almost exactly a month ago as of the time of this recording. Can you take me back to the moment when the invasion began? Where were you? Who were you with? What were you doing at the time? Roman: [19:14] I was alone at my apartment. I woke up from the bomb shelling and the air raid alarms. I just called my girlfriend and asked, “Well, it’s war. We should leave.” Everybody knew what’s going on. We started packing our belongings and rushed to the car and then moved. While we were trying to leave the city, there were major traffic jams, you couldn’t just leave immediately. It took us four hours just leaving a city. During the traffic jams, you were sitting in the car and hearing shellings around you and gun fighting, and that was the kind of disaster. You see all the people fleeing from the city. Someone on the foot, someone on the car, someone on a bike. Basically, any means possible they were using just to leave the city. It was really some kind of experience. I would say it was really terrifying. Joseph: Out of curiosity, did you think about staying? Or, was it just like how did you make the decision to leave everything behind and just go what sounds like that day? Roman: [20:38] I’ve made my plans before because I knew that something was cooking up. I just prepared for this. I had plans in my head, so “what if,” let’s say. What if they attack only Donbas area only, on the Eastern Ukraine? What if they attack also Southern Ukraine? What if they attack Kyiv? I immediately decided because we had already the experience from Donbas that it might take a month. But still, the first few days are the most ugly, and that you better leave immediately. That’s what we did. Joseph: Now, I also want to talk a little bit about your company, your team, and also you, and how you’ve been affected. But, it’s probably worth taking those one at a time here. What happened with your agency? I think you and I first connected because I saw a post from one of your colleagues who, if I understand it correctly, he’s left the country. He’s now in Romania with his family and daughters. What’s happened with the company itself? Roman: [21:44] We lost like 70% of our business already, of our clients and turnover. Most of our clients were Ukrainian companies. We also like freeze for two weeks. We couldn’t do anything because people were fleeing, they were relocating, were trying to find a safe spot for their families and for themselves. Basically, someone ended up in Poland, someone ended up in Romania, someone in Czech Republic, someone left in Kyiv, someone is here in Ivano-Frankivsk in Lviv. We are now in different places, different cities, and going back now to let’s say new normal. We are trying to reconnect. We’re trying to get our agency up and running with these digital tools, with a remote working approach, and that is kind of working okay. When I felt that we are now okay and we can proceed working, I started to look for prospects for new clients because we need now new clients in order to sustain ourselves. Joseph: Your team, are they just in different parts of the country at this point, or even outside of the country? Nobody is where you are right now? Roman: [23:12] Well, a few of them are but the rest of the team, so — Oh! Here is the air raid alarm. You’re probably hearing it. Joseph: What’s running through your head when you hear that? Roman: [23:25] I don’t know. Just the heartbeat is just going up. You are like, “Oh! Is it going to be safe or not?” You can’t know for sure each time. Most of the times, it’s okay, but sometimes, you hear bombing and you’re like, “Wow!” Joseph: I’m sitting here, it’s just kind of crazy that we’re talking right now. Don’t know how you’re able to I guess keep your composure with so much happening around you right now. Roman: [[23:57] I’m already used a bit to it, honestly. You get tired of being frightened all the time. You don’t have that amount of fear anymore. Joseph: I’m going to try to stay on track with the interview here and talk a little bit about you. I know that there’s been so much of an impact on so many people in so many different ways, both personally, professionally. This is a career podcast so I’m going to try to focus on that. How has your career been affected? Do you think, by what’s happening here, I know that might sound like a narrow question, but I am very curious to hear. There’s this whole professional side of people’s lives. They’ve invested years in education and training and developing skills. Now, I don’t know exactly where you’re sitting, but your teams scattered, the fate of your company is unknown. How do you think your career is being affected by everything that’s happening right now? Roman: [24:56] I don’t have a clue, honestly. You don’t know what’s going to happen. I don’t know even if I’m going to be alive in the next 24 hours, honestly. You don’t know what to expect. But, from the other point of view, from the other perspective, I’m not trying to push our company beyond our Ukrainian borders. It might and even better for example. If we succeed, we might become international. Way more than we were before. It might really help us in a strange way. When I’m saying this and like, “Do you hear yourself? What are you saying just right now? That it might be even better for you?” But, honestly, that’s one of the scenarios. It might be really better. From my lifetime experience, I would say that a few times I had those disasters in my life. I was born in 1980, that was still Soviet Union; and then, in 1990, it collapsed. We had crazy times back then. It was just a completely different story. Also, that was a time where people strive or you lose your track, and you don’t know what to do, and you become poor, and you almost die of hunger or something. It’s a very interesting time to grab yourself, to pull yourself together, and to decide what you want to do, how you want to survive, how you want to plan your future, and how you are going to fight for your life, for your career, for your path. That motivates you because you need to do something. You just literally need to do something in order to survive because I need money to feed my family. That’s why I should work, and I need work right now. I am pretty confident at what I am doing. I had a lot of expertise in marketing. I am really skillful, you can check my LinkedIn profile about skills, et cetera. I’m kind of very good at this, and that might help me push out of the comfort zone. That might sound funny because what’s the more ultimate push out of comfort zone than war? You couldn’t even imagine. Joseph: I hear what you’re saying it can kind of almost feel awkward to even use the word “opportunity” in the same sentence. As something tragic that’s happening, and I think a lot of us felt this during the pandemic. Clearly, you and millions of other people are now facing that in Ukraine. I suppose there is to some extent, I mean all you can do sometimes is to try to just pivot and find a way to make it work as you can. Roman: [27:54] You don’t have any chances. You’re going to just lose your company, or you want to just lose your career, or you’re going to do something about it. That post on LinkedIn is just the way that I’m trying to cope with this situation. I tried just to fight for my career, to fight for my company, fight for my employees, to find another opportunity, and it seems like it’s working. I am now talking to you. Who would imagine that we will be talking back two days ago? Joseph: Two days ago. Roman: [28:32] Not a chance. Joseph: Who would have guessed that? In some strange way I suppose, work does have a way of providing some normalcy in times where everything else seems uncertain and up in the air, and chaos around you. Roman: [28:47] Exactly. That’s when you start working — because I had like two weeks where I could pull myself together and that was kind of disaster. Then, we came here, in one of Frankiewicz, and we started volunteering in this initiative, “Save Ukraine Now.” If you would like to type it in Google, you will find our initiative where we trying to get donations and to buy some provisions, some medicines, some even helmets and ballistic vests for our soldiers. Basically, we try to help anyhow, and we started working and everything got better. And then, we returned to our normal, let’s say, new normal way of working. We started reaching out to clients, starting to negotiate with them, and it got better and better. The more you are preoccupied with something significant in your life, the more it’s kind of not that harsh for you to be in those circumstances. Joseph: Roman, I don’t want to take up too much more of your time. I was hoping we could cover a couple other topics here before we wrap up with what you’re hoping for your agency. The last thing I was hoping to talk with you about before we finish up by talking about some of your efforts with your agency right now, is just related to your perspectives on life and also your work at this moment. I’ve heard all sorts of stories on the news related to unthinkable challenges that people are dealing with right now. Not having running water, not having electricity, running out of food. I mean, literally, bodies in the streets there. What’s been the hardest part of this for you? Roman: [30:35] Leaving Kyiv was the hardest part because you were faced with all this terror and people fleeing, and screaming, and crying, and that was not the best place to be. But, now, it’s okay because here, in Western Ukraine, you just don’t feel it that much and everything is quite okay here. You have here water, internet, food, everything. We are quite okay here for now because we don’t know what’s going to happen in the next 24 hours. For now, it’s okay and it’s just as it was before, we are working. Just before our call, I had a call with our client from Paris. We talked about their strategies. It was kind of okay. Sometimes, you forget you are at war when you’re working. Joseph: This is a question I ask guests toward the end of this conversation, and I wasn’t sure whether I should ask it of you, but I do think it’s still applicable here. As you think about where you’ve been in your career and what’s happening around you right now, I get that you’re in a slightly safer area, but at the same time, your country is still at war right now. What’s something that you’ve learned about yourself just over the past month since this has happened? Roman: [32:02] Well, that I’m tougher than I expected, that I really can pull myself together and make good decisions. As leaving Kyiv, for example, timely and trying to reach out for international public, for international companies, to get clients and to keep sanity as well because it’s really kind of crazy times. I’m kind of okay, I really know what I’m doing, I’m capable of working properly. Basically, that’s what I learned from this situation, that I’m really tougher than I thought I am. Joseph: Is there something you would like people out there listening to this to know about what’s happening to professionals like you there in Ukraine right now? Roman: [32:52] We just need a chance. We need a chance. We need your help as well. When I did this post on LinkedIn, one American client said, “Okay. Just write me a bill for one hour of your consultation, and I’ll have it later on after war.” I couldn’t do it. Because I was like, “No. I want a real consultancy. I want a real job, not just a donation.” We really need a real job. We can do it. We are experienced. We know what we’re doing. We can help you. Just give us a chance because we need it now. Well, in some parts, we need donations like those people that are under the shellings in the bomb shelters, they need donations. But people here, businesses and professionals, they just need a chance to prove themselves. That’s it and they will prove it because our people really can fight as you can see, and we can do it. We can deliver. Just give us a chance. Joseph: I want to wrap up with what you are hoping to do right now. I know you’re trying to keep your agency going. Not only surviving but also thriving, if possible. Is there anything you would like to mention to anyone listening to this if they want to lend a hand or if they are interested in potentially working with you? Roman: [34:17] Go ahead. Just Google, “Aimbulance.” If you find what we’re doing suits your needs, please do not hesitate to us. We will do our best to help you with our services and our experience. Joseph: Thank you so much, Roman.

As the global Covid-19 pandemic now enters into its third year, professionals are now beginning to return to their offices, daily commutes, and ways of life pre-pandemic. On the one hand, it’s encouraging that life is returning back to “normal,” but on the other, it feels strange that things just are going back to the way things used to be. At the very least, this pandemic should be a big wake-up call for us all to reevaluate whether the ways we were living and working before this pandemic can and should be the ways we continue to live and work moving forward. Former corporate lawyer turned author and founder Eloise Skinner describes her own professional awakening catalysed by the pandemic in episode 81 of the Career Relaunch® podcast. We talk through the challenges of balancing multiple career endeavours, the seemingly inextricable link between our professional jobs and personal identities, and the importance of honoring your own values and interests no matter what others think. In the Mental Fuel® segment, I also describe what I would consider one of the biggest professional tragedies of this pandemic. Key Career Takeaways Balancing multiple career endeavors between your full-time job and side projects often means you can’t fully commit your energies to either, forcing you to decide where to devote your focus. Feeling grounded is often directly tied to having a defined professional title and clear career path, so leaving either behind is not easy. Figuring out what you want to do with your career starts with focusing on what YOU want instead of how you think others will react to your choices. Consider your values, what excites you, and what gets you out of bed in the morning. The pandemic has resulted in each of us letting go of things we assumed were just part of everyday professional life (regular hours, commute, etc), but we all have an opportunity now to reevaluate exactly how we want to work. Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I talked about identifying at least one change you want to make in your career (or life) that you feel would allow you feel better about where it’s headed. Insist on having something that’s important to you that you’re just not getting enough of right now or at least keeping your eyes peeled for opportunities where you might find it. About Eloise Skinner Eloise Skinner is an author, teacher and existential therapist. She is also the founder of two businesses, The Purpose Workshop and One Typical Day. Eloise’s newest book, The Purpose Handbook, was released in late 2021. And the proceeds from this book are shared with Career Ready UK, the UK’s national social mobility charity. She also has a seat on their youth board. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare, Tweet to let me and Eloise know! Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow Career Relaunch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android to automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow Career Relaunch on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to A2 Hosting for ing the Career Relaunch® podcast A2 Hosting is the web host provider I use and trust for my own websites, and they even offer 100% carbon neutral green hosting. For an easy, fast, and affordable way to get your personal website online today, visit careerrelaunch.net/a2 to get 50% off your web hosting plan. Interview Segment Music Credits Leimoti – Blossoms Jakob Ahlbom – Crossing the Rubicon Lama House – Where Legends Dwell Wonder – Hazy Expand – Hazy Rannar Sillard – Siljan Episode Interview Transcript Teaser (first ~15s): I think the pandemic removed so many things that I previously thought were unshakable that I started to re-evaluate what other things could maybe go without me missing them too much. That was when I decided I would just leave completely. Joseph: We got a lot to talk about today. I want to talk to you a little bit about your career as a former corporate lawyer. And then, I know we want to talk a little bit about your book-writing adventures. But I was wondering if we could first of all start by having you just give us a glimpse into what’s been keeping you busy right now in your career and your life. Eloise: [02:36] There’s been a few things. The biggest projects I have at the moment are writing my third book, which will be out next year. That’s a very big project which I’m working on at the moment. And then, the other thing is the business side of things. At the moment, my business is raising investment and that takes up pretty much all of my waking hours and some of my non-waking hours as well, thinking about that. That’s things like putting together a pitch deck, pitching to investors, and having lots of meetings. Those are the two biggest challenges at the moment. Joseph:  What about the rest your life? Anything personally keeping you occupied these days beyond what sounds like it quite a busy work schedule? Eloise: [03:16] It’s a very work-heavy time of life at the moment. Work moves in seasons. It comes, there’s very few seasons. And then, hopefully, towards the end of the year is when I’m thinking things will take a bit of a pause or at least there’ll be a season where things are less busy. Otherwise, I love to do things like fitness. I’m a fitness instructor. I teach quite a few Pilates and yoga classes. And, that as much as teaching. That’s a good part of my work. But it doesn’t ever feel like work because it’s also a personal ion. It’s something that kind of takes my mind off the other work that I’m doing and puts me into a different headspace. That’s something I enjoy outside of my main projects Joseph: Can you just tell us a little bit about your businesses? Because I think you’ve got a couple businesses. Eloise: [04:04] The first one is “The Purpose Workshop.” This is a business that is centered on working with people either one-on-one, or working with corporates, or working with educational clients, like schools or universities, just to help people find a sense of purpose. It’s based on my work in the field of existential therapy which is the training I have on the therapy side. It’s the idea that everyone has the ability to shape their life in any way that they want, people have the ability to find a sense of purpose in whatever situation they’re in. This is kind of the basic understanding of existential analysis which is the more academic side of things. The business is a very practical skills-based workshop to help people do that, that’s “The Purpose Workshop.” And then, my other business is an ed-tech start-up, and it’s called “One Typical Day.” It is a video platform for students to figure out their first career steps. We showcase video content helping students get an insight into a day in the life of lots of different types of careers. Joseph: Very interesting. It sounds like you definitely have your hands full with a lot of different things. I know that you haven’t always been an existential therapist, and you haven’t always been a founder of two businesses, and a writer of what’s coming up on your third book. Can we just go back in time a little bit and talk a little bit about how you got here? I know that you were originally working in the legal profession. Could you take us back to that part of your career, and then we’ll go forward from there? What exactly were you doing, and what kind of firm were you working for? Eloise: [05:42] I had a very traditional career starting out. I studied [unintelligible] university. I always thought I want to be a lawyer. I was one of those annoying people at 14. That was like, “I know exactly what I want to do for my career, and this is the direction I’m going in. This is it. This is my ion.” I studied law at university, really loved it, really loved my law degree from the academic perspective, and ended up in the city training as a corporate lawyer. I did two years training contract, and then three years as an associate. I spent some time out in New York. I ended up specializing in corporate tax, which is maybe not the most exciting job title, but it connected for me with the academic side of law. Most of corporate law, isn’t really about law in a technical sense. It’s more like the business environment, and the legal aspects of a business deal. It’s very much driven by market trends, and client demands, and what’s going on in the business world. But tax is a little bit more academic, so there’s a bit more what we would call maybe “black letter law,” the legislation, the statute books all of that stuff which apparently is what I love to do. That’s my legal work. Joseph: You liked that part of the legal journey kind of being in what you called the “black books,” and going through statutes, and getting into the details of things. What did you think your career was going to look like in the legal profession, and then what ended up being the reality that you experienced? Eloise: [07:12] It’s an interesting question because as a law student, even though you can think, “I really want to be a lawyer,” but you don’t know the reality of what that job is like in any respect until you get into it. Actually, at university, I thought maybe I wanted to be a family lawyer and someone doing divorce and child proceedings, and things like that. I did a family law internship, and I just didn’t connect with it in the way that I had expected to. I ended up in corporate law almost as a result of wanting somewhere that was very demanding, challenging environment. It was where a lot of my peers were going as well, and the culture fit was good at the firm that I ended up at. I felt that was somewhere where I could be myself and sort of challenge myself intellectually, as well as professionally. Corporate law was a very long way away from my experience as a law student. As I said, it’s fairly business driven. There’s not a huge amount of legal study involved in it. I guess it was a huge difference from my expectations as a student. Obviously, the other thing is the time demands, being in corporate law on what on your life as a whole I guess, and the kind of work-life balance of struggles or challenges that you have to overcome. Joseph: What kind of hours were you working at the law firm, out of curiosity? Eloise: [08:31] The interesting thing about corporate law, in particular, is that, even if you’re not working all of the hours in the day, you’re pretty much available all of those hours. That’s the kind of nature of the job that can be quite challenging is this feeling of being sort of “on-call” or “on-demand.” As in you’ve got a work demand in the middle of your Saturday, you just have to go into the office and like drop whatever it was that you were doing. It’s that kind of unpredictability that was more challenging and more draining on a personal level than the actual hours themselves. A lot of firms in the city now are very conscious of well-being and work-life balance, and they try and do as much as possible to you. But being in a very client-driven industry is just kind of the nature of the job and that is a part of it being responsive to anything that comes in Joseph: At what point did you realize that this wasn’t maybe what you wanted to do the rest of your life? What triggered that for you? Eloise: [09:24] It was more of a slow process of just other things being interesting to me. Too many competing demands to be able to do everything and to give my full energy and attention to everything. I’d already written a book back in 2019. It was my first book. Joseph: While you were working full time at the law firm? Eloise: [09:44] Yeah, exactly. It’s kind of like it was all my vacations, and like weekends for about a year and a half or something. It’s a pretty interesting decision, life decision. That book kind of opened my eyes to the possibilities of publishing, and being a content creator, and doing different things with my time. The more that I did other things the more I could see that it was going to be challenging for me to really commit to something, like 100%. Law is one of those careers that if you go for it and you want to make it to partnership or something like that, you are giving up your entire professional career to just do that single thing, not multitask, or have a portfolio career, or whatever it is. I got to a point where those natural crossroads that happen at some point during your career and you’re kind of thinking like, “If I continue down this path, it sort of shuts off other avenues. Do I want to take a moment to pause and figure out what to do next?” Joseph: I know that writing a book is a major endeavor. What got you thinking about writing the book and what was the book about? Eloise: [10:45] That one was called the “Junior Lawyers’ Handbook.” It was a handbook for junior lawyers. It was a professional development manual, so it was kind of an introduction to being a junior lawyer. It sort of evolved naturally from stuff I’d already been writing. When I ed the firm, I ended up putting together an internal kind of manual for the trainees that were ing, and I was just doing loads of professional development teaching, and helping out with training new lawyers, and stuff like that. That kind of evolved naturally into something more formal which became loads of articles. I was writing for a publication called “The Lawyer” at the time. And then, I was connected to an agent through a friend of a friend. We approached the law society. They wanted to publish it, which was amazing because they hadn’t published anything specifically for junior lawyers before. It was really exciting. Joseph: Super exciting! And then, you’re working on this book, you published the book, you have an agent. At this point, are you still working at the law firm? Eloise: [11:50] Yeah, that’s right. And obviously, all of my work on the side, my kind of writing and stuff, was all in the legal profession. In some ways, it was an extension of my personal brand as a lawyer, the work that I was doing within the legal community. It was very much connected to my professional role. When I got my second book deal in 2020, just before the pandemic. It was then at that point, where I could see the paths were diverging. Because as soon as I started to move away from the legal sector. that was when I saw more of a conflict between what I was doing as a lawyer, what I wanted to do as a writer. Joseph: And so, you’re working on your second book. At what point do you decide that you need to completely cut ties with the law firm and focus 100% on these other side projects and endeavors? Eloise: [12:44] The pandemic was a significant factor in choosing that decision. Had the pandemic not happened, I would have wanted to maybe still keep a little bit of my professional role in the legal sector somehow whether that’s like part-time or some kind of portfolio career. I had had some initial conversations about maybe going part-time or doing something like that doing the book alongside. I think the pandemic, as it did for a lot of us, it forced me to re-evaluate what do I want out of my career on a day-to-day level. Is it that I want to stay in law because it really fulfills me, or is it just because I’m too scared to just make the move into something else entirely? The pandemic removed so many things that I previously thought were unshakable. Like that commute into the city, the city lifestyle, that kind of stuff, it was all gone so fast. I started to re-evaluate what other things could maybe go without me missing them too much. That was when I decided, maybe not even forever, but at least for a period of time, like a year or something, I would just leave completely. Joseph: That’s really interesting, Eloise, because it seems like the pandemic was part of that awakening that you had. It almost showed you that life didn’t have to necessarily involve the commute, and maybe kind of reading between the lines here, but that maybe you didn’t need to have that be part of your daily life and there were other ways of working. Now, where does the founding of the new company then enter into the equation? How did you get that started and off the ground? Eloise: [14:19] “The Purpose Workshop” really came from the book. That’s quite a sort of interesting and unusual way of founding a business. Because, normally, the business comes first, and then people write the business book to go with the business. But I could just see that the material was incredibly teachable, and I was doing it one-on-one. I just thought this is more scalable as a business. I started to kind of put stuff together made some online courses, sort of formalized the whole teaching process. The other business, “One Typical Day,” that was really more of a product of just listening to what students wanted. So, as the book had sort of taken shape, I was speaking to a lot of young people about finding their purpose, and what they wanted to do for their careers. I could just see a gap in the market of kind of video-based careers content. I ended up on an accelerated program, and that helped me structure the business and put some market research and validation behind these ideas. It just continued from there really. It was a natural process of listening to people and seeing what they wanted, and seeing that there was a gap, and trying to fill it. Joseph:  How was the journey of shifting from full-time work to working for yourself? Not only working for yourself but starting a couple actual businesses. Can you just describe the contrast in your day-to-day work-life? Eloise: [15:37] Really challenging in ways that I have not even expected before. There are huge things that I feel so proud of myself for doing and ways that my life is so much more aligned now to who I am as a person, what I want to be doing with my time, and so much more autonomy about my hours and how my days are structured. At the same time, there’s a huge amount of anxiety about leaving a very stable, traditional corporate path and not knowing what comes next. Almost a sense of guilt as well. I kind of felt like I fell out of the structure that I’d had from my life. I just was floating a little bit outside of that structure. That was a weird way to describe it, but it felt kind of untethered or ungrounded for a while. Because my days have gone from being very determined by someone else’s schedule, meetings at this time because someone else says so, or client demands at this time because that’s what’s happening to me being completely in control of what happened and when. With all of these projects, like the book, the businesses, the teaching, whatever, if those weren’t pushed forwards by me, they weren’t going to happen. And so, this whole like sort of weight of my career just landed on my shoulders, like really heavily. There are things that I’m just so grateful for, and things that are amazing about this time of life, and things that are also quite intimidating or stressful or just challenging in ways that I hadn’t anticipated. Joseph: I’m hoping we can take these topics maybe one at a time here. First, of all just starting your own business, and then second of all, I do want to talk about your journey to get your book written and published. But, you mentioned that it was really challenging, this change. Can you describe just for maybe somebody out there who’s maybe thinking about leaving their full-time role, and is considering to start their own thing? The existence as a self-employed founder/entrepreneur/solopreneur, whatever you want to call it. Can you just describe what makes that so challenging? Eloise: [17:44] One of the biggest things is the identity question, is your identity bound up in your role in your professional career. For me, it definitely was. Because not only was I a law student and someone who’d said like I want to be a lawyer since I was pretty young in my educational journey but also I was someone in the legal profession with a pretty clear personal brand and reputation. I wasn’t just doing my legal job in the day and doing other stuff by night, or at the weekends or whatever, but I’d also given a significant amount of my personal time to building a little bit of a place for myself in the legal world. All my connections were in law, and my friends are in law, and all of that kind of stuff. That’s one of the things that’s challenging, is the process of unraveling your personal identity from your job title which is an interesting process. But once you do it is incredibly liberating because then you just feel much more connected to yourself, and a little bit more about who you actually are, separate from the day-to-day work that you’re doing. Also, related to knowing your self is sort of figuring out how you work best. This is such a strange process if you have been employed for most of your careers, and you haven’t been self-employed before because you’re suddenly free to structure your working day however you like. It’s not something you get the opportunity to do when you’re in employment. And so, it’s like figuring out when am I most productive, when should I have my meetings, what time should I start work, what time should I finish work, you need boundaries, choosing when you’re going to socialize. It was weird because I have a friend who’s also self-employed, we just realized, “Oh! We could just like go to like an art museum or something on a random Tuesday afternoon.” It feels illegal to do something like that. Because it’s like, “What am I doing? I should be working in 9-to-5!” But suddenly, you realize, you’re actually not compelled to do your work in that way. If you’re not doing your best work during those times, then you can restructure your life to reflect that. Joseph: Everything you just said, Eloise, resonates so much with me. The part about how our identities are linked up with our job titles especially when those job titles are quite neatly packaged, like lawyer, or I grew up thinking I wanted to become a doctor. It’s a lot easier to describe what a lawyer or doctor does versus somebody who’s got multiple endeavors, and ions, and interests. And so, that resonates with me. Also, this idea of just how to structure your workday, and we’re so programmed to follow this Monday through Friday, 9-to-5 routine. But you’re right, there’s not really anything that bounds us to that necessarily. I find I work quite well at night. That’s when I sometimes do my best work when the sun goes down. This is also a good transition to talk about your book because it is about what’s called, “The Purpose Handbook.” I’m talking about your second book. It is about helping people understand how to design their lives. As much as I would love to get into the content of the book, I’m also very interested in how you came to publish the book. I heard once everybody’s got a book inside them, and for many people listening to this show, they’ve probably thought, “Yeah, maybe I could write a book.” Can you just walk us through a little bit of your process of how you ended up writing the book? It is a lot of work. How’s that experience been for you? Eloise: A 100%. Everyone has a book in them, and I think everyone should write a book. I’ve been trying to encourage my dad to write a book recently. I’m like, “I think you can do it, and you need to do it.” People have these interesting stories to tell, and more books in the world is always a good thing. In answer to your question, it depends what kind of book you’re writing. I mean I have no idea how to write a novel. I’m just like totally in awe of people who write fiction. I have no idea where does that even come from. How do you imagine all of that? I mean that’s totally out of my range of expertise. But, with a non-fiction book, it’s a very sort of almost mechanical process in a way like you can break it down into steps. You’ve got to write about something that you know. Something that you’ve worked with. Either something you’re experienced in, or a personal story that you have to tell or something you’re trained in, something you teach to people. A concept that you know well that you have something to say about. And then, you just break it down into chunks, like chapters. From there, you’re just breaking it down into exactly what points you want to make, what evidence you want like. I know I’m making it sound like unmagical and like very boring, but it is almost a process of if you’re going to write a blog post, you think about what kind of points you want to make, what kind of structure you want to have, and then it’s just doing that on a bigger scale. Obviously, you have to tie everything together. You have to have a key narrative or something that runs throughout the book. So that you’re not just doing disparate chunks of content, but you’re actually telling a story even though it is a non-fiction book. The most important thing is like knowing what you want to say to people. Sometimes books are written like I’m not quite sure like exactly what point the author was trying to make in it. The really valuable thing before you even start is figuring out what do people need to hear. From your audience’s perspective, what do they need to hear from you that they haven’t heard already? What new or unique content can you add to their lives to enhance their experience in life a little bit? And then, how can you tell that like what structure are you going to use? Joseph: One more question about the actual book process. I know you’re saying you break it down, you kind of break it down into chunks. In of finding the time in the headspace to sit down and work on your book, how do you do that in a way that’s effective for you? I’m asking you this question because whether it’s a book or any other kind of project, you’ve got to have time and you got to have energy to do it. Where do you build that into your day? Eloise: [23:39] Some people have natural kind of self-discipline to do stuff like this. They have a time every day where they just sit down. I’ve heard writers say, “I get up at 6 a.m., and I write until 9 a.m.” or do it really late in the evening or something. For me, I usually need an external deadline to really like do my best work. I need some kind of element of people depending on me. If I don’t do it, I’m going to get in trouble kind of thing. Joseph: A little bit of pressure. Eloise: [24:07] For me, it’s definitely always been a good thing. I’ve always had a publisher, kind of on my back with a deadline, and that has helped me to power through. It’s more difficult if you’re just doing it as a personal project, you only have yourself to depend on. In that case, I’d say maybe consider setting yourself a deadline, a self-imposed deadline, even if it’s flexible. You can say, “I’m going to have Chapter 1 done by this time. Chapter 2…” You’re holding yourself to some kind of timeline. Joseph: That’s a good tip right there. It’s kind of making sure that you’re working towards something. And so, that you don’t have this infinite timeline where you just end up procrastinating which is what I sometimes often do. Before we talk about some of the things you’ve learned along the way of your career change journey, I did want to talk briefly about the book itself. Because it’s called “The Purpose Handbook, A Beginner’s Guide to Figuring Out What You’re Here to Do.” I’m just wondering, without giving away any spoilers of the book, for people out there who are thinking, “Gosh! I don’t know what I want to do. I know I don’t want to do what I’m doing right now, but I don’t know what I want to do instead.” Do you have any suggestions on where somebody might at least start? Eloise: [25:21] The number one place to start is with yourself. Getting to know yourself before you start to figure out, “What do I actually want to do with my time?” A lot of the time we start sort of several layers detached from ourselves. We think what would earn good money, what would look good on LinkedIn, or what would sound good to tell my parents that I’m doing, that sort of thing. The trouble with doing that, which is how most people start out, me included, the trouble is sometimes you can do that and then follow a path that is a little bit disconnected from what you want to do as a human being in the world. I’d say start with your personal values. What’s important to you in the world? What kind of things interest you? What kind of things make you excited about waking up in the morning? They don’t have to be job titles. These could be sort of general principles, or concepts, or values, or even relationships with other people or anything really. And then, make a huge list. Write down everything you could ever think of. Go back through that list and see if there are any things that are sort of integrated or any consistent themes that are standing out to you. That might be something like spending time in community, or being an extrovert, or talking to other people. From there, you can start to get the building blocks of what kind of careers would be good for those kind of ions and skills. But you’ve got to start with the personal stuff first, and then work outwards to the more like professional or practical stuff. Joseph: Speaking of personal things and focusing on yourself, I would like to just talk with you about some of the lessons that you’ve learned along the way before we wrap up today. I was wondering if you could just start, Eloise, by telling me if you were to look back on your career change, what’s something that you wish you had known that you now know about changing careers? Eloise: [27:13] The biggest thing is no one cares as much as you do about the change of careers. I was worried that making a big change in career would have everyone sort of questioning or saying like, “Oh, you’ve made a big mistake,” or “You’re walking away from something;” or “What are you doing? Do you know what you’re doing?” And those were all my own insecurities projected outwards. I just saw that no one noticed or minded too much if they were interested. It was because they were either thinking about it themselves, or they were inspired, or they were just curious, and no one told me that I was going to make a mistake, or no one seemed overly concerned, or anything. My big thing would be the person who cares the most is you. And, if you know it’s the right decision, worry less about what people are going to say or think. Chances are everyone’s thinking about their own careers anyway, and the judgment is probably mostly in your own head. If you have a strong enough conviction, that you’re doing the right thing, that’s the most important thing you can have. Joseph: Very helpful. I know exactly what you meant. We’re so concerned with what other people are going to think. But at the end of the day, if you think about like how much do you really think about other people on a minute-to-minute basis, it doesn’t really — even your best friends it’s not like they’re in your mind every moment of the day. And so, you’re absolutely right about the fact that we sometimes overestimate how much people are paying attention to the choices that we’re making. The other thing I was wondering about is given the fact that you’ve been on this career change, and I’d say going from a law firm to founding your own company, and also by the way writing a few books on this, I’d say, that’s a pretty major career change. What’s one thing that you’ve learned about yourself along the way? Eloise: [29:02] The biggest thing is that I just have a better sense of who I am now in the career change. I can see that my personality, going back to the identity thing, isn’t wrapped up with the idea of being a lawyer or like having legal skills or even working in the corporate world or even having a job at all. It’s shown me that I do know who I am, and I have quite a firm foundation in my own identity and ions and interests. I’m so much more than any kind of career label at all. Even if I do go back into the corporate world in some capacity, or go back into corporate law at some point, the real gift of this period of time has been to almost find this really firm foundation within myself that I can now rely on whenever I need to. Regardless of any career changes or developments that happen in the future. Joseph: I’d be really curious to hear because it sounds like you have so many different things going on that you find so fulfilling right now. We talked about some of the challenges of making the changes. What do you enjoy the most now about the kind of work that you’re doing? Eloise: [30:09] The idea of making an impact is just really, really exciting to me. That was maybe something I was missing in corporate law a little bit was this sense of shaping the world in the direction that you want it to go in. Being a sort of business owner and being someone who’s actively putting content out into the world is, as you know as well from your own experiences, you feel much more connected to the stuff that you’re doing. Your impact is right there and it’s much more tangible than it is when you’re working in a big corporate firm where you rarely see the outcome of the work that you’re doing in of a sort of impact in the world. The idea of making a social impact and sort of changing things in the way that I believe they should be changed towards social mobility, accessibility, diversity, and all of that kind of stuff. That gives me so much energy to continue to push in the businesses, and also with the books and stuff. That’s the biggest thing. Joseph:  Well, speaking of impact, Eloise, I want to wrap up with the book itself is not just a book. I don’t know that some of the proceeds go to a very good cause. Can you tell me a little bit more about where the proceeds go from your book, and I guess you’re also involved with something quite interesting on the side? In addition to everything else you have going on. Eloise: [31:20] The proceeds of this second book, part of the proceeds, go towards Career Ready UK, who are the UK’s national social mobility charity. They do some incredible work with young people, giving them expanded horizons and inspiration for the careers that they can have, and also practical skills workshops, that kind of thing. And, just preparing students from all different backgrounds to the world of work which is such an important thing. Coming from a different background myself to most of my peers when I ended up at university, it’s just something I believe in a lot and I’m very ionate about the idea of everyone being given an equal start in life. Everyone’s starting from the same place, and being taken by your drive and ambition in any direction you want to go in. They’re doing some fantastic work, and I’m excited to be involved with them. [32:09]

How can you get your foot in the door of a new industry if you don’t have the traditional credentials, experiences, or education required? Brad Stewart went from being a tattoo artist to a real estate professional to a marketing manager in the financial sector in spite of lacking the formalised experience or education of most other candidates. In this episode of the Career Relaunch® podcast, we’ll discuss how he pulled off his major career changes by overcoming judgment, imposter syndrome, and adversity along the way. I also share some thoughts on how I manage the opinions of others during my own career transitions. Key Career Insights One way to figure out if you’re on the right path is to look at the people around who have been in your industry for longer than you and asking yourself whether you want to turn out like them. It’s inevitable that people may initially judge you based on your appearance, but the onus is still on you to have your work and results speak for themselves. Career change often involves a total life change too, including your circle of friends, lifestyle, habits, and attitudes. Imposter syndrome faces us all, but doing your best to be logical rather than emotional about how you react to it can help you manage it. Be careful who you listen to. Always seek , but be careful what you take on board. Tweetables to Share Be careful whose advice you listen to. is often more about the person giving it than the person receiving it. Brad Stewart Tweet This Resources Mentioned At end of the Mental Fuel segment, I mentioned a quote from Baz Luhrmann’s “Everybody’s Free To Wear Sunscreen” song, originally from Mary Schmich’s 1997 Chicago Tribune article. Here’s the full music video: Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel segment, I talked about the importance of thinking critically about whose you take on board. If you’re struggling with how to navigate your career transition, definitely solicit the opinions of people you ire, but when you do, sense check it against your own gut and what you feel is ultimately going to make the most sense given your specific situation. This is your journey, so do what you feel works best for you. About Brad Stewart, Tattoo Artist Turned Marketing Manager Brad Stewart has had quite the career journey. He left high school to spend a decade in the tattoo industry as a tattoo artist, working at and managing various shops around Sydney, Australia. He lived & breathed the lifestyle. We’re talking gangsters, parties, drugs . . . you name it. He describes his late teens and early 20’s as quite a wild time in his life. Then, at the age of 27, he did a complete 180. He went through two years of intensive laser tattoo removal as he pivoted into a career in real estate, which was part of his total life transformation. After 5 years in the property industry, Brad gained some marketing experience by taking an entry level job at a ticket-selling company. Eventually, he landed a job in the financial services industry where he currently works as a marketing manager for one of Australia’s largest retirement funds. Follow Brad on LinkedIn and Instagram. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare, Tweet to let me and Brad know! Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Subscribe: Be sure to subscribe to Career Relaunch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow Career Relaunch on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to Harmoni for ing the Career Relaunch® podcast Thanks to Harmoni Design for ing this episode of Career Relaunch. The Harmoni Standing Desk offers a smarter, healthier way to work with its simple design that fits into any workspace. It’s the standing desk I’ve used myself since 2020, and Career Relaunch listeners can get 15% off any Harmoni order by visiting CareerRelaunch.net/Harmoni and using discount code RELAUNCH when you check out. Interview Segment Music Credits Big Blue Ice Climb Blue Waves Curious Process Night Vision SunBeam Music provided by Podington Bear Dovetail – Crystaline Episode Interview Transcript Teaser (first ~15s): I would go through a full 45-minute, hour-long interview just for them to turn around and say, “We love the way that you are. You’ve got a great energy about you. You speak really well. We’ve got no doubt that you’ll do really, really but you can’t have a job with us because of the way you look.” Joseph: Let’s dive right in here. I would love to start by understanding what you’re focused on right now in your career and your life. Then, we’re going to go back in time and talk about your very interesting career journey from there. Brad: [04:25] I’m from Sydney, Australia. As your listeners could probably tell by the accent. I’m married. I’ve got a lovely little family, two beautiful chihuahuas, and a cat here. I’m currently a marketing manager for a superannuation fund. Superannuation is the Australian equivalent to the 401(k) that is over there in the states. When an employee has a job, they get paid a salary. On top of that salary, it’s compulsory that the employer pays an extra 10% in superannuation. That superannuation goes to a fund. We manage that money on behalf of that particular member. We make sure that their returns and their retirement outcomes are the best that they can be. They can draw down on that money in the form of a pension or a lump sum when they retire. It sort of helps them in their older years. Joseph: You mentioned that you’ve just recently married. You guys got married right at the start of when COVID kicked off. How’s that been like? How’s married life been during COVID? Brad: [05:41] It’s been really good. It’s been great. We were due to do something in 2020 when COVID first hit. We decided to hold that off and see what happens. My partner’s got quite a big family, and we would have loved to have a beautiful celebration as everyone would. But, when we sort of hit the start of 2021, and then things weren’t looking like they were going to go away, we decided to basically just elope here in Sydney. We woke up one day and decided, “Hey! Today’s the day;” and away we went, just her and I. It was beautiful. We’re coming up to 12 months now. Married life is bliss, Joseph. Joseph: Very good to hear. You mentioned you’re working at a superannuation fund right now, in the space of retirement planning that is very different from what you started doing at the very beginning of your career. I was hoping we could go back in time and talk about the chapter from your teenage years through to your late 20s when you were a tattoo artist. I think it’s probably fair to say that that’s probably not the very first thing that most kids would say they want to do when they grow up when you ask them what they’re going to do when they’re going to grow up. How did you get into that? We can move forward from there. Brad: [06:58] Growing up, Joseph, I didn’t know what I wanted to do. I sat in school, and I went through school, didn’t particularly want to be there. I had a lot of anxiety as I hit my early teenage years thinking, what am I going to do when I leave school? I have no idea. You know people that they grow up wanting to be policemen. They grow up wanting to be firemen, doctors, whatever the situation was, and I just had absolutely no idea. I ended up hanging out with a couple of kids around the neighborhood, who, one in particular’s older brother owned a tattoo shop. That whole lifestyle of tattoos and big tough guys, and that whole scene for an impressionable 15-, 16-year-old, not having much direction with where they wanted to go, seemed quite appealing. It’s something that I kind of just fell into, if that makes sense. The more I sort of immerse myself in that lifestyle, I had a natural talent for art that I didn’t realize I had until I started in that particular role. I fell into it, and it just kind of snowballed from there. Joseph: This was during high school, is that right? That you left high school to pursue tattoo? Brad: [08:22] Yes. I left school at the end of year 10. It was just before I turned 17. I started working in a shop, in a place called Parramatta, which is here in Sydney. It’s probably the second-largest city in Sydney. I started my apprenticeship and away I went. Joseph: Were you thinking that you were going to leave high school when you started high school? Were you planning on finishing? Is that something that was crossing your mind on? Brad: [08:55] No, I always wanted to leave. School for me was just a place I had to go. I wasn’t a naughty kid or anything like that, but I just didn’t want to be there. I was just disinterested in school. I had the issue on the other side. It was like, “Well, what am I going to do if I’m not here?” I sort of found a job in a shop, and that was an excuse for me to get out of there. Joseph: You get into this world of, let’s call it broadly, “becoming a tattoo artist.” I know you sent me a few articles before we spoke today about the scene in that industry. Can you just give me a glimpse into just what the scene is like in the tattoo industry and working at a tattoo shop? Part of the reason why I ask, Brad, is like you and I have met virtually on camera. You probably can tell I’m a fairly clean-cut guy. I have to it, I’ve never stepped foot in a tattoo parlor. What’s that world like? Brad: [09:57] It’s different. I think since I’ve left, things have somewhat changed and cleaned up a little bit. The industry in Sydney is essentially run by outlaw motorcycle clubs, so biker gangs. To own a shop, you need to be in a bike club, or you need to be paying someone in a bike club. Along with that comes the consequences. I know some of the articles that I sent you across back from when I was working in the industry where tattoo shops getting shot, firebombed. I think I sent you one. Joseph: Rammed with vehicles. Brad: [10:39] A car was rammed into a front of a shop and set on fire because they wouldn’t pay their stand over money that they were told they had to pay in order to operate. That was fairly common. Something would happen like that on probably a fortnightly basis in Sydney. It was a dangerous industry to be in, and it was a dangerous workplace to be in. I know that there was a particular shop that I was working at in Western Sydney. Once every couple of weeks, the boss would walk in and he’d say, “Lock the back door. Lock the front door. Don’t let anyone in except your customers because all that’s going on, and we might get a knock on the door.” It’s a very dangerous environment to be in. It was an environment where if you didn’t have your wits about you, and you weren’t very aware of your surroundings that at times, you could have got in a lot of trouble. Joseph: Was this something that you felt each and every day? I guess what’s behind my question is the average person who comes on to this show is not someone who works in what we would consider a dangerous industry. Did this bother you at all? Did it just seem like what was normal in your world? Brad: [11:52] When I first got into it, I was attracted to that sort of lifestyle. The whole ego image that you’re projecting, that people I’m working in a tattoo shop and hanging out with these kinds of people. It’s one of those things that made me puff my chest out and be proud of. There was a time when I was about 22, it was a couple of days before Christmas, where the boss that I was working for at the time had upset somebody. I worked in the same shop in Parramatta that I started in. It was upstairs, it was on a street called “Church Street.” Anyone in Sydney knowing Church Street, Parramatta is it has very, very busy restaurants everywhere. A bunch of people walked into the shop, and they smashed the entire shop. They smashed me up with the shop. I don’t a whole week of my life after that. From that point on, there was probably maybe three to six months, I took a break from the industry after that because that was something that kind of really opened my eyes and sort of shook me up a little bit. But, once I got over that, nothing bothered me after that, in a weird way. That happened, I took a little bit of a break and just did some odd jobs here and there to pay the bills and so on. It was like if that didn’t stop me, nothing will. I was totally fine after that. Joseph: At this point, you’ve been in the industry for a few years, and you have this happen. You decide you’re going to stay in the industry. Before we talk about your transition, can you also give me a glimpse into who was your clientele like? Could you give me a sampling of the types of people who would come into your shop to get tattoos? Brad: [13:42] It was everybody. It was anybody from your 18-year-old guy who wanted to get tattoos to impress the girls and impress his mates, to mothers who had lost children, getting small little memorial tattoos, to people in biker clubs who wanted to get a lot of tattoos as well. It was very varied. I would tattoo policemen, doctors, and a lot of people that are in the corporate environment now, as well as people that you wouldn’t expect. I tattooed a love heart on a lady in her late 70s, who I being my oldest client. She just wanted to do it, so she got a little love heart on her upper arm. It was a varied clientele, no particular demographic. Joseph: As someone who worked in that industry for over a decade, do you feel like there’s any common misconception that people have about tattoo artists or tattoo shops that you feel you could just dispel right now? Brad: [14:45] Probably not tattoo shops, but tattoo artists and people with tattoos. There’s that stigma where if you’re covered in tattoos or you’ve got a lot of tattoos, you’re some kind of horrible criminal or some kind of a really bad person, or whatever the case might be. But, everybody gets tattoos. I said to my mother when I came home with my first really visible tattoo, I said, “If this is the worst thing I ever do, you should be happy.” It’s a reflection on who you are. People are putting on their bodies things that mean a lot to them, that represents them. It’s a way people tell their story of their life and who they are through pictures on their body. The rumor that I would dispel is that people that have tattoos are bad, horrible people which is just not the case. Joseph: I’m one of those people who is probably somewhat judgmental with people who have tattoos. I don’t know why. It’s like a stereotype. Brad: [15:46] For what reason though? I mean, if you look at these shows on TV and these news reports. Joseph: Prison Break, or something. Brad: [15:52] Prison Break. Even like reality crime shows, and Australia’s or America’s Most, there are always tattooed people against us. They’re always tattooed and there’s that stigma. It’s the normal people that also enjoy looking that way and doing those kinds of things that are totally normal. It’s a funny one because even myself now, I often look at some people and go, “Oh God! I don’t want to walk past you.” And then, I kind of look at myself and go, “Hang on a minute. What are you doing?” A funny story was my wife boarded an Uber once. She refused to get in it because the Uber driver had a sleeve tattoo and had a tattoo on his head. She goes, “I don’t want to get in the car with him because he’s covered in tattoos.” I said, “Darling, look who you’re married to.” There is always that stigma there. It’s very hard to get rid of. Joseph: You’re working in the tattoo industry from your teenage years through to your late 20s. That moment you shared earlier when you got beaten up in the shops and the shop got kind of ransacked, but can you take me back to the moment when you did decide, “Okay, something’s got to change in my career”? Brad: [17:15] It was a culmination of things. I was in the industry for circa 10 years at the time, and I was looking at older people, older tattooers that had been in the industry for 20, 30, 40 years. I was just starting to observe as I got older myself, and started to mature a little bit myself, how I wanted the rest of my life to pan out. There’s no better way than seeing how you’re going to turn out. I don’t think than seeing the way the people around you are or have turned out. For me, it was a decision that I literally woke up one day and made the decision that there was more to life for me. I wasn’t interested in doing this anymore. I wasn’t interested in being around this environment anymore, and I made the decision to change. There was no catalyst. It was just a build-up of probably 6 to 12 months of seeing this person over there, seeing that person over here, and just saying, “I don’t want this life anymore.” I want more. Joseph: What did you do next when you realized that you wanted to make a change? Brad: [18:31] I started to change myself. I always had the short Mohawk haircut. I was always someone who never really took a great deal of pride in my appearance when I was in that industry. I started by making some changes to myself. The way I dressed, the way I’ve had my hair, the way I spoke, the way I interacted with customers, just to bring myself a level above what I was previously. The big decision for me, Joseph, was, “What am I going to do?” By this point, I had tattoos on my hand right down on my fingertips on both hands. I had tattoos right up to my chin, all along my throat, my neck. I’ve got tattoos on my head. I kind of sort of thought, “What am I going to do for the rest of my life?” I’ve made the decision that working in the tattoo industry isn’t it, but what is? I started to research what I was going to do with the rest of my life. I sat down one afternoon, and I went on Google. I googled something along the lines of “What job can you do where you don’t have a qualification that pays a fair decent salary?” Bearing in mind, I have and still have no formal qualifications, no university degree, or college degree, or anything like that. I’ve got a couple of little certificates here and there that I needed as part of my career transition, but what am I going to do? The one role, the one industry that kept popping up was real estate, and that was it. It had to be real estate. Joseph: How much did the education come up as a barrier for you? Not having the high school education, not having the college degree. Was that an issue or was it not so much an issue? Brad: [20:17] It’s proven that it hasn’t, so far. I think the higher I get up in the corporate environment, I think it might become somewhat of an issue. Especially nowadays, a lot of it’s about your output, and about results, and about what you can do, and your ability and willing to learn. So far, I haven’t been held back by not having any formal degrees, and I’m hoping that’s going to continue. I have to see how that one goes. I’ve had some different on that. Some people are saying you will need to do something or you’re only going to get to a certain level without it. But, we’ll just have to see. Joseph: Real estate popped up as an option. Can you take me through exactly how your first opportunity panned out in real estate? I know you mentioned that you were covered in tattoos. I’d be interested to hear how much that played a role in your first job or attempts to get a job in the real estate industry. Brad: [21:13] I ended up googling every real estate agency in Sydney. I ended up then emailing just about every real estate agent and agency in Sydney that explains who I was, what my background was, how I looked, what I was hoping to achieve by changing industries. I just sort of shot that out to everybody in the hope that somebody would come back to me and say, “However, [unintelligible], you can have a job with us.” I got a lot of responses. Some responses I got pretty instantly were, “No, thank you. We’re not looking at hiring.” Some were, “If you’ve got tattoos, this isn’t the industry for you.” Joseph: That was because of your appearance that they were saying no to. Brad: [22:04] Because of the appearance. I got interviewed on many occasions. I would probably say maybe 8 to 10 agencies called me in for an interview. Here’s me, putting on my suit and tie, and thinking, “I’ve got a real shot at this.” I would see it go through a full 45-minute, hour-long interview just for them to turn around and say, “We love the way that you are. You’ve got a great energy about you. You speak really well. We’ve got no doubt that you’ll do really, really well in this industry, but you can’t have a job with us because of the way you look.” That happened multiple times. Luckily, I’m stubborn. I know what I want and I’m a bit stubborn, so I didn’t let that stop me. I just kept pushing, and eventually found an agency that gave me a shot which was really, really good. But, that issue of the way I look never went away. My first day with this new agency, again in Parramatta, funnily enough, I walked in the front door of the office on my first day. I said hello to my boss, and he gave me a key instantly to the back door and said, “When you enter or leave the office, can you do it through the back door? Because I don’t want my clientele seeing you with all those tattoos at the front of the office.” He gave me a desk at the back of the office. My role was basically on the phone. There was no sort of face-to-face interaction, and like I said, I was to enter and leave through the back. He often said that I was a little bit of an experiment for him just to see whether or not someone that looked like me could do any good. I ended up doing okay which was interesting. I eventually ended up getting face-to-face in front of real-life clients that the way I looked was quite refreshing to them because real estate agents, they all kind of wear the same cheap suits and drive the same flashy cars. And then, here’s me with tattoos on my neck and on my hands and had a really different look than what everyone else in our area had. I was definitely memorable, Joseph. Joseph: I’ll bet, yeah. You’re working in residential real estate at this point in time. What was the journey like for you once you got past the initial resistance to things like your appearance, or maybe the lack of education, or things like that? Brad: [24:33] It was a great one, Joseph. I did learn a lot about who I was as a person. I was making 2,500 cold calls a month by that stage. I was able to get out into the open and into the public. I was knocking on 50 to 100 doors a day, asking strangers if they wanted to sell their houses. I learned a lot during my time as an agent about things like resilience, how a business worked. I was learning a lot about how to get people, how to influence people to do things. I was learning how to sell. I was learning how to sell myself. I was learning how to sell a product. I was honing those skills of people management, stakeholder management. Trying to make sure I was engaging at every step in the journey, presentations, developing strategies. I was putting in the groundwork of what would be my current role now in marketing. I didn’t really have a purpose to be there, if that makes sense. I sort of fell into it because that’s the only thing I felt I could do at that particular time. I didn’t really have a why and why I wanted to be in the industry. It was just, “This is all I could do.” It’s something I wasn’t overly ionate about. But, I would go back and do it again because it’s laid an outstanding foundation for me to be able to build on for the rest of my career. Joseph: What triggered you to then start to explore other sectors? I know that you eventually moved into financial services. How did that come about for you? Brad: [26:13] In real estate, it’s a very tough industry in of you’re not paid a salary. You’re on commission only, which means if you don’t make a sale or find a listing, you don’t get paid. Along with that comes the cutthroat culture in a particular office where you’d be, in some instances, fighting with the person on the desk next to you about who’s going to get the particular listing or who gets to make the sale. If you’re not in that industry for a very long time, you don’t get the opportunity to develop that clientele and develop those relationships. If you’re not in an office that s development and growth, and you’re in an office that’s focused on nothing but numbers, it gets to a point where you’re not doing very well, and you are sort of bound by market forces and other different things. So, the market will go up, the market will go down, nobody will sell. Then all of a sudden, it’ll roll over again and there’ll be a lot of properties on the market for sale. For me, financial securities are really important thing, and I wanted to be in a role where I had a steady income and a steady salary. I also wanted to be in an industry and have a role that had meaning to it for me. I started to enjoy the more marketing and strategic side of real estate, more so than the interaction with people and the sales. For me, it took probably again 6 to 12 months to try and understand where that lay outside. As I mentioned before, financial security is quite important to me. My parents were self-employed. Growing up, I saw my dad get up and go to work every day to make sure that we could pay for the roof over our heads. He’d get up at dark and come home at dark. Seeing that as I was growing up made me feel a lot about financial security and wanting to help people be financially secure, which led me to financial services. Joseph: I’m listening to your story here, Brad. First of all, it’s very impressive that you’re able to make these moves from the tattoo industry into working in real estate, and then eventually into the finance industry. Did you find anything, in particular, to be challenging along the way? I’m thinking in particular about just being new in a brand-new industry. You’re the newcomer and you don’t necessarily have the traditional kind of linear background most people might have in that industry. Was that ever a challenge or an issue for you? I’d just be curious to hear about that because it’s something that comes up a lot with people who are moving into new sectors or roles or functions. Brad: [29:26] They’re extremely challenging. There’s not been a move that I’ve made that hasn’t been challenging. There’s two big points, right? The first point was moving from tattooing into real estate. That was challenging because, not only a career change, that was a whole lifestyle change, right? I cleaned up the entire way. I live my life. I changed my circle of friends. I changed the way I spoke. I changed the way I look. I changed the way I interacted with people. I changed what I did for a living. Probably, the change into the change of jobs was probably the easiest change as opposed to the rest of my life that I had to change along with it. Moving from real estate into the marketing world was a big challenge, and a challenge I kind of still face today even though I’m in a position where I feel like I’m supposed to be. The marketing world, as you probably know yourself, it’s very much based on experience. Not having that qualification, not having in real estate, the formal marketing experience, even though a lot of what we did in real estate was marketing. To get into financial services, I needed, as silly as it sounds, I needed at least 12 months with the word “marketing” in my job title. What I had to do was go from that time in real estate where I was doing okay. I was kicking goals. I wasn’t setting the world on fire, but I had a level of a reputation around the area as someone who knew what they were doing was fairly competent and I didn’t have any issues in that regard. To looking for an entry-level job purely because it had the word “marketing” in it, which would allow me to take my next step. Taking a step backwards to go forwards was really, really tough. I had to do that twice. I had to do that moving into marketing. I went into an eCommerce sales-based business where we sold tickets to events and I had to move right back to the start, do almost a 12-month apprenticeship for it to be formalized. And then, take that same entry-level role into the financial services industry where I could get 12 months of financial services experience before I could take a step out and get into an actual full-time proper marketing role. That whole transition was probably the toughest point of my career so far, I think. Joseph: I can imagine. I’m just thinking that with each of these steps, it sounds like you were just patiently and persistently progressing in the direction that you wanted to go. Did you deal with any sort of imposter syndrome along the way? And if so, how did you manage that with each of these steps? Brad: [32:26] Imposter syndrome. It’s something that I even faced today. It’s something that I’ll have for the foreseeable future. I think a lot of people have that. The fact that I had such a different background. The fact that I looked the way I looked, especially moving into real estate. Having those naysayers who said, “You’ll never get anywhere. You’ll never do well because of the way you look. People don’t want to talk to you.” Things like that always play in the back of your mind. When you’re sitting in the living room, and the mother and a father who were looking at selling their family home, I often thought, “Are these people not going to give this to me because of the way I look?” I always felt like I didn’t belong where I was. Moving into the business outside of real estate, that ticketing business. I felt like I didn’t belong there. I wasn’t supposed to be there. I felt that I was supposed to be somewhere else because I knew that I was worth so much more than what I was in that particular business. Then moving into financial services, I took another step back and kind of felt like, “I’m in a real business now. This is a business that manages a lot of money, has a great responsibility that comes along with this particular role. I’m under-qualified. I don’t know what I’m doing, and I’m going to get a lot of mischief here because I’m going to get found out and all these particular things that you worry about.” At the end of the day, I’ve got a great network, my wife. She’s unbelievable. She really puts things into perspective for me and she just said, “You know what you’re doing. You’ve got all the experience. Just back yourself and you’ll be fine.” Once I realized that’s just the anxieties of the change, that’s probably all normal. I felt it more than most. But, sitting back, understanding where I was looking at things logically, instead of emotionally, I was really able to sort of just calm down and take it step by step. Now, things are working out well. I still feel it now and again. I try to overcompensate with things that I do to make sure that I’m always on the front foot with things. Using a lot of initiative and starting new things and going above and beyond in that particular role just to prove a point, “Here I am. Here’s what I can do,” which helps me mentally. It’s been tough at certain points. Joseph: I want to wrap up, Brad, with a few of the lessons that you’ve learned along the way of your very interesting career journey. I suppose the very first thing that comes to mind for me is just thinking about how radically different your world and your work was as a tattoo artist versus what you’re doing now in the superannuation fund, in the marketing space. What, if anything, did you learn during your days as that tattoo artist that now shows up in your daily career or even your life right now? Brad: [35:32] That’s a tough one to answer because the craziness of that tattoo world became normal. Since I’ve moved on from there, I try and block a lot of it out. But, a lot of the things that I learned back then that I’ve been able to use now is how to deal with people. That whole self-awareness piece. One minute, I might have been tattooing a mother who had lost a child and was upset and was getting a tattoo as a memorial to that particular event. And then, my very next appointment after that might have been someone in a bike club who was really, really angry, and just didn’t have time to talk and was just a mean nasty person. I really had to learn how to deal with those two conflicting situations because no two people are the same, and people are very funny creatures. Understanding how to read people, how to analyze a situation, how to learn when I was in a dangerous situation or a dangerous position, or a position where something could have gone wrong, and understanding how the mechanics of how all that works is something that I’ve taken on and still use at some point to this day. I sort of translate that into making further career moves and career steps, and people you align yourselves with, and having a bit of a strategy as to how the rest of you know my career is going to pan out. It’s sort of indirect, but there are a lot of things that I draw on from back in the day of being a tattooist that have somewhat followed me through. It’s a really difficult question. Joseph: You mentioned strategy there, Brad. Now, if you had to give advice to your younger self, as it relates to navigating these career changes, what might that be? Brad: [37:38] I think there’s two things that I would tell my younger self. The first thing is to be careful who you’ll listen to. Always seek and advice but be careful what you take on board and who you take that on board from. We need to that people’s and people’s advice and people’s opinions are always based on their own experiences. It includes their insecurities and their own biases. Sometimes, can be really, really useful, and really, really helpful, and really insightful. Sometimes, can say more about the person giving it than it can about you, the person receiving it. There’s a lot of frenemies in the corporate world I’ve come to learn. It’s understanding who’s on your side, who’s on your team. And, just being careful around that. The second thing that I would tell myself would be make sure every move you make is very deliberate and very purposeful. Not getting distracted with flashy lights and things that shine all the time. Making sure that everything you do aligns to why you’re doing what you’re doing. Every career move you make aligns to your long-term goal. And block out the distractions, and don’t be too easily influenced. Joseph: That is some great advice there, Brad. I think that there’s so many people who whether you solicit the opinions or not of those people, they want to weigh in on your career decisions and your moves. You’re absolutely right. It’s completely biased by their own experiences and their own insecurities sometimes. It’s hard to find somebody who’s truly objective with this. Brad: [39:33] If I listen to everybody for every interview I went into as a real estate agent, if I listen to all of them, I wouldn’t be here today. I’ll probably still be sitting in a tattoo shop somewhere because to them, they had a bias that tattoo people weren’t going to amount to anything or wouldn’t fit in the industry. I chose not to take that on board when I very easily could have taken that on board. If I had, I wouldn’t be here. It’s just being very mindful about who you listen to. Joseph: Last question here for you, Brad. You mentioned earlier that you learned a lot about yourself as a person through some of these moves. Clearly, you’ve faced a lot of naysayers along the way. Yet, you persisted through it all. When you think about your career change journey, going from tattoo artists to working in real estate to financial services, is there one thing in particular that you have learned about yourself that stands out to you? Brad: [40:28] What I’ve learned is I’m actually able to do anything I want to do. Going through life, there’s always doubt. You always question whether what you’ve done is the right decision, and you’re always thinking, “Should I have done something different? Am I on the right path?” What I’ve learned about myself is I have the guts to change. I’m pragmatic enough to be able to do that. I’ve learned that I can shape my own future however I want to, and it’s up to me to do that. I’ve got the ability to do it. It’s that whole part of believing in myself. Even though there’s been times where I’ve felt like I’m in that position or in a role where I haven’t belonged, I do belong right where I am right now. I can do anything I put my mind to. Joseph: Thank you so much Brad for telling me more about your former life as a tattoo artist and how you made some of these radical career pivots in the face of a lot of challenge. As you just mentioned, the importance of being selective about whose opinions you take on and the power of belief. Best of luck to you with your current role. I hope it all continues to go well for you. Brad: [41:48] Thank you very much, Joseph. It was great to have a chat with you. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to come on your show. Joseph: I hope you heard some useful insights from Brad about overcoming the judgments of others, managing imposter syndrome, and entering a new industry when you haven’t followed a traditional career path to get there. [42:07]

If you’re not happy with your current job, but you don’t know exactly what you would prefer to do instead, what should do do? Bommy Lee, a journalist turned communications head of life sciences venture capital firm Sofinnova, shares her career insights on the power of professional relationships when relaunching your career, the importance of reconsidering your earlier career choices, and why being content with where you are doesn’t necessarily mean you’ll happy with where you’re headed. Originally from Canada, Bommy is now based in Paris, . I first crossed paths with Bommy when she spoke on an alumni career after a career change workshop I hosted for Executive MBAs at HEC Business School in Paris. I decided to invite her to share her story on the show because I felt like she provided some especially thoughtful perspectives on navigating career changes, and thought you might also enjoy hearing her thoughts and advice on topics related to networking, mindset, and career decisions. During the Mental Fuel® segment, I’ll also address a listener’s question about how to figure out your next career move when no particular direction jumps out to you. Key Career Insights Networking is about building a safety net for the future. Try to make meaningful connections so that if and when the time comes, your network can work for you. Try to go into networking focused on serving and giving rather than taking. Focus on being authentic and useful. Career change is something that’s difficult to do on your own. Just because you feel content with all the things you currently have in your life, it doesn’t mean you’re necessarily happy with where your life is headed. A job can really define your identity. When you begin to question your career path, it often leads you to also question other parts of your life beyond your career. Career change can feel very lonely and solitary at times when you struggle to find people around you who truly understand your situation. There’s a point where you’re willing to leave everything behind because the opportunity ahead is so much great. Once you realize that the limitations you’re experiencing are actually self-imposed, you’re able to get over those limitations. Tweetables to Share Being happy with your current career doesn't necessarily mean you're happy with where it's headed. Bommy Lee Tweet This Bommy referred to this quote during our conversation that you may find relevant to your own career situation if you’ve been unhappy with your work for a while now: Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional. Say you’re running and you think, ‘Man, this hurts, I can’t take it anymore. The ‘hurt’ part is an unavoidable reality, but whether or not you can stand anymore is up to the runner himself. Haruki Murakami Tweet This Listener Challenge If you know you’re not happy with your current role, but you’re not sure what to do instead, during this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, my challenge to you, is to force yourself to take some proactive action, which I believe is what leads to opportunity and further illumination. So whether it’s doing something more reflective like reconnecting with your values or childhood or something more active like doing some information interviews with people in industries you’re considering, I hope you can eventually then take your best guess and what could make you happier. About Bommy Lee, Head of Communications at Sofinnova Partners Bommy Lee is the Head of Communications at Sofinnova Partners, where she heads up the global communications strategy for a leading European venture capital firm in life sciences that invests into healthcare and sustainability. Previously, Bommy worked in startups building international brands and communications strategies in the medtech sector. But she started her career 20 years ago as a journalist for the International Herald Tribune. She’s originally from Canada and now based in Paris, . Follow her on LinkedIn. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare, Tweet to let me and Bommy know! Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Subscribe: Be sure to subscribe to Career Relaunch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow Career Relaunch on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Looking for another podcast with useful advice? I wanted to mention another podcast to check out. Have you ever wondered how to manage imposter syndrome? Or how to confront a bad manager? If so, be sure to check out the How To! podcast with Amanda Ripley who’s a best-selling author and investigative reporter on the hunt for answers to life’s toughest questions. Each week, listeners reach out with their problems, and Amanda connects them with the perfect experts who offer advice that can be life-changing. You can even hear my OWN chat with Amanda about how to advance your career by quitting your job in the Nov 16, 2021 episode. Look for How To! from Slate wherever you listen to podcasts. Interview Segment Music Credits Big Blue Serenity Trinity Alps Chimera 88 Button Mushrooms Stars Are Out Music provided by Podington Bear Birds – Corbyn Kites Episode Interview Transcript Teaser (first ~15s): Someone close to me died suddenly and it really affected me. I started thinking about my own existence, and whether I was truly living a life that had meaning. A lot of the time, the answer was no… Joseph: Good morning, Bommy. Welcome to the Career Relaunch podcast. It is great to have you on the show. Bommy: [02:16] Thank you for having me, Joseph. Joseph: What are you focused on right now in your career and your life, amid everything going on? Bommy: [02:23] Well, I started my current job just over a year ago. At the time, I had just finished my Executive MBA Program and was looking for a change. I had a couple of offers on the table, and one of them, on paper at least, would have been a much bigger leap for me. But, in the end, I decided to go at this one. I have to say it was the best decision of my life. Joseph: Can you give us a glimpse into your role at Sofinnova Partners, which is a VC firm in life sciences? What are you focused on there? Bommy: [02:26] It’s a really exciting time in communications for this sector because finance, in particular, private equity, is not what you would call at the cutting edge of communications. If you can think about one finance company that is doing some groundbreaking things in comms, there aren’t a whole lot that would come to mind. And so, there’s a lot we can do to shift that. I’m heading up the communications team in Sofinnova, and that’s very exciting because I feel like it’s a little bit of a start-up initiative within a larger organization. There’s a lot of possibility and the start-up world is one that I love. Joseph: It seems like a really exciting space to be in right now, especially when healthcare is so forefront in the news and in our lives at this particular moment. I want to go back in time and talk about your time before you worked in communications out of VC firm in the life sciences there in Paris but before that, can you just also tell me a little bit about where you’re from originally, where your family’s from, your personal background? Bommy: [03:58] I was born in Canada. My family is Korean Canadian. They immigrated to Canada after the war. We ended up going back to Korea when I was in high school. I finished up my studies there. I went back to Canada to go to journalism school, and then, came to about 20 years ago, to continue my studies in political science. My parents are in Korea. My brother is in Malaysia, and I have another brother in Canada. It’s a challenge to see each other but we’re very close. That’s been one of the hardest parts about the pandemic is not being able to just get on a plane and see the people you love which, as an expat, you really count on that facility and the possibility of being able to do that at any time. Joseph: Yeah, that is really tough. I was just talking to my wife this morning about just not knowing exactly when I can go back to the United States, which is where I’m from because I’ve been there over a year and a half now, and there’s a lot of uncertainty around that. Speaking of mobility, you mentioned journalism and how you studied journalism. Can we go back in time a little bit and talk about your time in the world of journalism? And then, we can move forward from there and maybe we could start with your time at the International Herald Tribune. Bommy: [05:18] At the time, it was called the “International Herald Tribune.” And then, it was rebranded “The International New York Times.” I was there when a lot of those changes were happening. As part of a great team that were spearheading the digital side of journalism. At the time, we were taking the print version of the paper and ing it onto the website. We were calling it the “website,” the exact copy of the print version that day was our website. Joseph: Like PDFs or something? Bommy: [05:50] Almost. Practically, a PDF. Very cut-and-paste kind of job, and very manual. This is early 2000s, Twitter happened. We started seeing the potential of the web. We started seeing that sending reporters and photographers out to these sometimes war zones, very dangerous areas, they were coming back with amazing reporting, photography, and the print format is limited. Whereas, digital, you could make a slideshow with 12 of the best photos. You could have an interview with a reporter about what it was like to be on the scene, and not be limited in space or by deadlines. There was a shift in the industry, and it was very exciting because there was a lot of change going on. In that sense, I was very lucky to be there when that was happening and meeting people who were willing to take that risk and try something new. That was my time with the IHT. Very, very fond memories. Joseph: I know you said you’re from Canada, and then you moved. It sounds like your first professional experience was in Paris. What was that like for you to make that sort of geographical, and also cultural, change that early on in your career? Bommy: [07:09] The IHT was my first real professional experience in Paris. It was based in Noisiel Siene, which is just outside of Paris. That was a very expat, American, Anglophone experience. There was a multicultural group, but it was still very North American in its culture. The way we work, we ate at our desks. We learned a lot from our truly French colleagues, who had a different way of working. I didn’t get to experience that fully until I left journalism and ed the start-up world in a French med-tech start-up, specializing in [unintelligible] microscopy. That was really my first French experience in the workplace. That also was quite international, but it’s the first time I was exposed to a lot of different ways of working. It’s a big learning experience for me. Joseph: How did you end up making that shift from journalism into the world of medical technology? Was that just an interest of yours? Did it sort of opportunistically happen? Bommy: [08:15] It was very serendipitous in a way. I had been at the Herald Tribune for I think it was 5, 6 years. The digital operations started doing well and they wanted to bring it back to the mothership in New York. I wasn’t ready to leave Paris at the time, so I left. In the meantime, I had my first two daughters. I wasn’t in a hurry to go back into the working world. I wanted to spend some quality time with our new family. I’ve had a couple shifts in my career and in each time, it’s been closely tied to people. People who were willing to take a chance on me, even if I didn’t come from their world and have the usual credentials and people who were leading a vision or mission I believed in and I wanted to be part of. So, when I was on the unemployment list in , you’re obligated to send out a few CVs a month to show that you’re actively searching to get your benefits. I ended up, not very actively, but I ended up speaking to someone who was looking for an addition to the marketing communications team to help on the digital side. Since I’ve been working on the digital side at the Trib, that’s what got me my foot in. But, it’s a whole new world. I didn’t know start-ups. I’d never worked in a French company before. I didn’t know anything about medicine. I’m not a scientist, so there was a lot of unknowns. But, what motivated me was the person that was hiring me. Their vision, the vision of the company. All of that felt exciting, and we had the potential of helping people to detect cancer more easily, and be alleviated of the anxiety around that, and get a diagnosis much faster, more accurately. That part of it spoke to me. So, I jumped in. Joseph: You mentioned something there, Bommy, that I think comes up a lot with people when they’re thinking about making a change, which is to pursue roles that, at least on paper, may not seem like they are directly aligned with your background or your skill set. You mentioned that people were willing to give you an opportunity even though you didn’t necessarily come from that specific sector. What was it about your approach or how you went about this, that you felt opened the doors to you with these opportunities that didn’t initially seem like they would be possible or viable? Bommy: [10:48] I think opportunities are linked to people. If you are able to demonstrate to someone, even though they don’t know whether you’re able to deliver on a certain type of job description, you’re able to demonstrate that you’re able and willing. That you have a background or a track record, not necessarily in the same domain, but transferable skills, that could be valuable to a job. Even though it’s completely a new sector or a new type of role. I think that’s where the key is. That’s also what has given me subsequent opportunities in areas. After that particular role in that start-up, I went on to another start-up that was less in the B2B space, more in the B2C or B2C2B space in diabetes, in novel technology for insulin delivery for type 1 diabetes. That is much more speaking directly to the consumer, to the end-. I had no experience in retail before. But, the person who gave me that opportunity was also someone I had crossed paths with in the past, and she believed that I could come and do the job. A lot of it has to do with making those connections with people who will open those doors for you. I’m very grateful to them for having given me that chance. Joseph: Can you just share a glimpse into your approach to networking? It sounds like these people you’ve come across have been quite useful, helpful people in your life. At the same time, I know that some people who are networking or building professional relationships sometimes will tell me, “Well, they’re not really fruitful, or they’re not materializing into anything.” What’s your mindset when you go about connecting with people professionally or just building out your professional network? Bommy: [12:39] Networking for me is building a safety net for the future. The approach that is very important to take in networking is not that you’re trying to sell yourself or trying to find opportunities for yourself, but that you are trying to be useful to someone and make a meaningful connection. When or if the time comes, because sometimes it never does, it’s an investment. You never know what it’s going to end up being like. If you go into a networking opportunity with the mindset that, “I’m going to try to find a way to be completely authentic, to find people that I connect with naturally and find ways to be useful to that person,” even if it’s a really small thing. Like, “Oh, are you in Paris for the first time? Do you know a good restaurant? Can I make a recommendation?” Just finding connections or common threads that you can connect on. I think it’s all about the human relationship. I’m sure you’ve heard of Adam Grant’s theory on givers and takers. If you go into a simple conversation, you can tell when someone is there because they want something from you. Or, you can tell when they’re just there to have a nice exchange, and that comes across. The best kind of networking is really when you can go into a conversation with a serving mindset, a helpful mindset, a giving mindset, rather than taking. Joseph: It’s really helpful advice. A good reminder that it’s definitely about relationship building, and it can be better to think about it more long term. You mentioned the experience you had in diabetes management. That was at the Cellnovo Group in Paris. Is that correct? Bommy: [14:26] Exactly. Joseph: What was that like for you to work in the space of diabetes management? How did you think your career was going to evolve there and then how did it ultimately evolve? Bommy: [14:35] It was a very exciting opportunity because I was able to see much more clearly the impact our work was having on people’s lives, on the quality of their life. I was able to meet directly with patients who were using our technology. That’s very motivating. That’s sort of the red thread between what I did in journalism. What I’ve found in healthcare is there’s a public service that you’re contributing to the world. In journalism, that was information so that people could make decisions and run democracies. In healthcare, we’re working on innovative technologies that can help save lives and help people to be happier. I need that kind of deeper purpose, I suppose. That’s what gets me up in the morning, knowing that I am contributing to something that is helping others. Joseph: The other topic I would like to talk with you about is during your time at Cellnovo, you decided to pursue an executive MBA. Can you just explain to me what was your thinking behind that? How did you come to the decision that you wanted to go back to school? What prompted you to pursue an executive MBA? Bommy: [15:55] I would have to take you a few years back to when I decided to embark on a career change. I think the first factor was that my youngest daughter finally started sleeping through the night. Until that point, my husband and I have been on survival mode trying to remain relatively functional and coherent. Our lives revolved around the daily routines and needs of our three daughters. It’s completely normal but it’s exhausting. Suddenly, when they were out of diapers, going to school, sleeping regularly, I was able to lift my head and see beyond the fogginess of sleep deprivation. That’s when things started becoming more clear. It’s also when things started hitting me and I realized, “Hmm, not sure I like what I see ahead.” At the same time, there was a second trigger. Someone close to me died suddenly. It was the first time I experienced such a loss, and it affected me. I started thinking about my own existence, and whether I was truly living a life that had meaning. A lot of the time, the answer was no. So, I decided, “I’m going to have to do something about this.” I don’t know what. Looking back at that time, I gravitated towards books about death because it helped me to clarify life, its purpose, my purpose, and how I wanted to write the rest of my story. That brings me to your question about the MBA. The third thing that happened in this big shift was I enrolled in a part-time executive MBA. I didn’t know at the time exactly what I wanted but my goal was to come out on the other end with more knowledge, more options, and more confidence to be able to change the direction of my career and my life. Joseph: I had a client of mine just asked me about this topic of going back to school. He’s been working for a while in the corporate world. One of the questions that he has, and one of the hesitations that I often hear come up when people talk about returning to school are things like the opportunity cost of stepping away from work. I know that’s not directly relevant in your case because you’re still working full time when you’re doing an executive MBA. But, how did you think about the trade-offs between just putting your head down, continuing to focus on work, versus adding yet another task on top of your already busy life and pursuing an executive MBA? Bommy: [18:34] I think it was the realization that I was very unhappy, and that the road ahead was not one that was going to be enough for me. It really was this realization that I was unhappy, that I had done everything I thought I should do to fulfill all the criteria that should lead to a good life. Going to good schools, getting a job, finding a life partner, having kids, giving back to the community, all those things that I thought should make me happy and fulfilled, and then coming to realization that I actually know this was not going to cut it for me. It was really hard when I realized one day that I had no idea how I got here. Everything I had worked towards so diligently might have been for all the wrong reasons. It made me dig very deep into the past, childhood experiences, painful moments that I may have buried or brushed over. I found myself revisiting everything, questioning everything. Joseph: Was there something in particular that you felt was missing from your career or your life at the time? Bommy: [19:53] I think, at the time, it wasn’t that anything was missing. But, when I looked ahead at the trajectory of my life, I didn’t like where it was leading. One of my favorite quotes from Maya Angelou is when she said, “If the world puts you on a road you do not like, if you look ahead and you don’t like what you see, you don’t like the destination you’re being led to, then you need to step off that road and build a new path.” You might not know where that path is going, but the first step really is to take that leap and say, “Okay. I’m going into the unknown.” If I weigh all of those risks and uncertainties, it’s still worth it. It may not work out. But, in the end, it’s worth doing something that’s very scary and uncertain than to know that I will be stuck on a path that seems pretty clear in of what those limitations will be. Joseph: What was it about where that road was leading you that made you feel like you were traveling in the wrong direction? Bommy: [21:04] In , especially in the working world, there is still an expectation that you are able to do a certain job because you went to the right schools, and you had the right credentials to be able to do it. My role at Cellnovo was taking me more into an area that I felt I didn’t have that knowledge or the credentials for into the business side, rather than the communications and the digital side. It was a public company, we were dealing with investors, we were having to put out quarterly reports. I wasn’t feeling like I had enough knowledge to be able to translate the meaning of our quarterly reports to the investors, if I were to get a question, for example. There were areas like that where I felt that, “Okay. I’ve done everything I can to learn on the job from the people who are very happy to help me.” But, I’ve come to a point where I need to accelerate. If I continue trying to learn on my own, I’m only going to get so far, and I want to be farther. I don’t want to be limited because of this. That was one of the main driving factors for going back to business school. To a school that is recognized in , one that has a very good network. To be able to get not only the benefits of everything that comes with going to a recognized reputed school, but also to have a more formal understanding, the structures and the theory behind everything that I was trying to apply my day-to-day job. Joseph: You go to HEC Paris Business School. What then happens as a result of that, or in parallel, to doing your executive MBA as you thought about your next move in your career? Bommy: [23:02] I went into the MBA thinking, “Okay. I’m going to get a degree, get the knowledge I need, and come out on the other end with more career options.” What ended up happening was that, when you’re not happy with one aspect of your life, then often it’s linked to a lot of other things. I didn’t realize how deeply that impacted all of my other life decisions. I suppose a job really can define an identity and once you start digging into the whys and hows of that identity, you realize that it’s closely linked to other life decisions. Professional questioning, that was one part of it. But, I met a lot of people who were going through similar challenges, and we really connected because you end up questioning a lot of different parts of your life and feeling very alone at times. There were some solitary moments for me where I felt that I didn’t know if I could talk to anybody. I didn’t know who might understand around me. Being able to connect with others in that MBA program, my peers, my colleagues, who were in a similar stage of their professional lives, and we’re also going through the emotions of that change. It was very comforting to know that I wasn’t alone. Joseph: It can be a very lonely, solitary journey when you are revisiting your past, and your history, and a lot of stuff. I’ve been there myself. A lot of stuff comes up, and you kind of realize these things you’ve been carrying around for quite a long time, and that can be a lot to handle. Before we talk about some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way in your transitions, how did you then discover the opportunity at Sofinnova, and what prompted you to move there? Bommy: [25:12] It was a result of a connection that I had made through HEC. My advisor for my Capstone project, which is the end of the year business thesis. He was someone who helped me a lot along the way. When I was finishing up my degree, the company, Cellnovo, we weren’t able to raise enough capital to continue operations, and we started shutting things down. It’s a very difficult time. What ended up happening was I graduated, June 13th, a few days before we officially closed the company. I felt a huge emptiness and I didn’t know what to do. My advisor helped in a lot of ways. He helped me to get through that. He was someone who helped me on the content of that paper but also tried to help me find that next step. He introduced me to the former chairman of Sofinnova Partners, and said, “Look. You never know. He’s part of the network. He knows a lot of people.” One of my ex-colleagues found out I had met with him, and later told me, “You know you’ve just met the godfather of biotech investing in .” He’s a really big guy! And, I thought, “Wow! Really? He didn’t come off as he was.” I just had such a good connection with Henri. We sat down for coffee. That’s all we did, and we just talked. It was such a good conversation. I think this is where you know going back to networking. If you go in just with no expectations, just with the right mindset, then magic can happen. And, that’s exactly what happened. He ended up introducing me to the current chairman. We had a few conversations there. At the beginning, it was just talk of a few consulting gigs and seemed exciting. One thing led to the next. All of a sudden, they were saying, “Well, we might have enough here for a full-time job. What do you think?” That’s how it happened. Joseph: The last thing I want to talk with you about, Bommy, is just some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way of your very interesting career change journey that has been filled with some pretty major transitions. You and I first crossed paths when you served on an alumni at HEC Paris Business School. After a talk I gave there about career change a couple of weeks ago, one of the things that you said that stuck out to me, and kind of prompted me to want to get you on the show was, when you were discussing transitions and when you mentioned you’re motivated because you’re willing to leave something behind to pursue something greater. What did you mean by that? Bommy: [28:10] This is definitely one of the big lessons that I took away from this experience. You just need to embrace the pain. This is the quote that we talked about from the Japanese American writer, Haruki Murakami, who says, “Pain is inevitable, but suffering is a choice,” and it’s true. When you decide to make that leap into the unknown, it’s an opportunity for growth. That growth comes with pain, and the struggle is all part of it. Keeping that in mind, and the fact that it’s not necessarily about the finish line but the journey, puts things into a completely different perspective. That, for me, was one of the things that was the key takeaways. The other thing is that there’s a point where you’re willing to leave everything behind because the opportunity to pursue something bigger is that much more important. Career change is a team sport. Yes, the decision and the courage need to start with you. Yes, you do have to do the hard work. But, there are so many people who help me along the way and in a million ways, whether they know it or not. There was a turning point for me when I realized that if I was going to continue along this path, I would be unhappy. If I was unhappy it would impact the people that I loved the most. So, I had to make the leap because it was the chance to become a person that I want to be for my daughters, for my husband, for my parents, for my brothers, my friends. That risk was worth it because the potential endpoint was that much greater. Joseph: You mentioned there “embrace the pain.” What was most painful for you about making your career moves? Bommy: [30:1] Again, back to the idea that “career change is a team sport.” Maybe “sport” is too light a word because there are a lot of dark moments: doubt, frustration, and confusion, and anger. The point is that the hardest thing is taking that leap. It’s very scary. It’s something that took me a lot of time to decide to actually do. When I did it, I was very glad. The other big lesson for me in this was that it’s only when I recognized that my limitations were self-imposed, that I was able to go beyond them. That change of perspective was key to opening so many more doors to new possibilities. Joseph: The final question for you here is around that idea of introspection. Having pulled off multiple transitions that seem, to me at least, to be pretty difficult to pull off. What have you learned about yourself along the way? Bommy: [31:18] I can’t do everything on my own. I need to ask for help. What is difficult for me is I’m very independent, very self-reliance. Having to ask for help has always felt like a weakness but the incredible thing that happened was when I realized that I couldn’t get through this on my own. When I started reaching out to people, it just started coming from everywhere. My mentors, my coaches, my HEC colleagues, my husband, my family, everyone was there to help me get through this. It was great to see that I had all these people to help me along. Joseph: Can you tell me a little bit more about what’s next for you? What are your hopes as you look ahead in your career, Bommy? Bommy: [32:10] The way I’ve been thinking about my next steps are in the context of how I would like my life to fall from this point. I’ve been thinking a lot about the past. In the first part of our lives, we receive and take from our parents, our teachers, our communities. We choose a lifestyle and career. We feed ourselves of knowledge and experience. What I’d like to do now is to shift into what I think should be the logical next step, which when we have received so much in life, then we should give using the knowledge and experience that we’ve gained to empower and help others, which you are an expert at, in helping people to do this transition. I would love to go more in that direction. I’m really grateful for this opportunity to share my experience with you. I hope it will help others who might be going through similar struggles. Joseph: Thank you so much, Bommy, for telling me more about your shift from journalism to the world of communications, and then also spending your time in the healthcare sector. How you manage to connect with people during those important transitions in your career, and also the importance of ensuring that your career aligns with the kind of life you want, not only for yourself but also for the people around you. So, best of luck with your current role and all your future endeavors. Bommy: [33:38] Thank you, Joseph. It’s been a pleasure. Joseph: I hope you heard some useful insights from Bommy about re-evaluating your career direction, the trade-offs of staying put versus trying something new and why your professional network can play a key role in your career pivot. [33:51]

Teacher turned marketer Alex Spencer of Prezzybox shares her perspectives on the importance of climbing the right career ladder in episode 78 of the Career Relaunch® podcast. She explains how taking a temporary hit to her salary was worth it to her in the long run because it ultimately gave her the chance to do work she found more meaningful. We also discuss the true measures of your professional success and satisfaction (hint–it’s not just salary!) and the importance of being selective and specific about your next target role. Key Career Insights Being specific about what you’re offering and what you’re looking for is critical when making a career change to have a chance to standing out amongst the sea of traditional candidates out there. Taking a pay cut can feel like a big blow to your career, but if you can weather it for a while and it means being able to move toward doing something that would make you happier, in the long run, you will then be climbing the right ladder to hopefully reach your previous salary again. A nice job title and salary isn’t everything. You have to do work that gives you joy and energy, and no amount of salary can buy you these things. Tweetables to Share You spend more time at work than you do with your family and friends. Life's way too short to be going to a job every day that you don't enjoy. Alex Spencer Tweet This Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel segment, I talked about how money can understandably stop people from making the changes they want in their careers. If you’re thinking about making a career change, but a potential salary drop is standing in your way, try to get crystal clear on what exact, temporary salary decrease you could stomach, both practically and psychologically. What salary decrease wouldn’t have a significant impact on your ability to do the important things you want to do in your life and career? What is that exact figure? Do the math, and write it down. Maybe seeing that number can help you clarify exactly what is and is not possible when considering your next move. About Alex Spencer, PR & Marketing Executive Alex Spencer started her career as an English lecturer teaching 16-18 year olds at a further education college in England, but eventually changed career paths to become a PR and Marketing Executive at the online gift retailer Prezzybox. On the side, she also freelances as a content writer and volunteers for NOW-U, a non-profit organization helping to tackle some of the world’s most pressing environmental and social problems. And she’s also the mum to one. Follow Alex on LinkedIn and Twitter. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare, Tweet to let me and Alex know! Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Subscribe: Be sure to subscribe to Career Relaunch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow Career Relaunch on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Music Credits Tales of the deep by Lama House Ambient/Electronic song by Mattia Cupelli Giza by Ebb & Flod Against A Paler Sun by Hushed Uplifting corporate and inspiring by Lesfm Music provided by Epidemic Sound Pixabay Youtube Thanks to Grammarly for ing Career Relaunch Built by linguists and language lovers, Grammarly’s writing app finds and corrects hundreds of complex writing errors — so you don’t have to. Career Relaunch listeners can Grammarly for free by going to GetGrammarly.com/relaunch. INTERVIEW SEGMENT MUSIC CREDITS Tales of the deep by Lama House Ambient/Electronic song by Mattia Cupelli Giza by Ebb & Flod Against A Paler Sun by Hushed Uplifting corporate and inspiring by Lesfm Music provided by Epidemic Sound Pixabay Youtube Episode Interview Transcript Teaser (first ~15s): A nice job title and a high salary isn’t all that you need to make you happy. You need to do something that gives you energy and gives you joy and brings you happiness. You’re not going to get that no matter how high your salary is if you’re not happy in what you’re doing. Joseph: Okay. Good morning, Alex, and welcome to Career Relaunch. It is great to have you on the show. Alex: [02:35] Thank you so much for having me. It’s great to be here. Thank you. Joseph: We got a lot to cover today. I want to talk about your time as a teacher and how you made the shift into marketing. But, I would love to start by getting a glimpse into what is keeping you busy right now in your career and your life. Alex: [02:53] At home, I have a husband and daughter who is only 16 months. She’s just started walking, so she takes up an awful lot of time and energy. She is the most wonderful thing but she is always on the go. I’m surprised that I do have the energy to work alongside it. Somehow, I managed to go to work for Prezzybox. We’re one of the leading online gift retailers in the UK. I work as a marketing and PR executive at Prezzybox. They are just a wonderful company to work for. I can’t praise them highly enough. I’m, at the moment, trying to focus on learning as much as I can about marketing, the broad sort of spectrum really of SEO, PR, social content marketing. That’s what I’m focused on at the moment, learning as much as I can. Joseph: For those people who are not super familiar with the geography of the UK, can you give a glimpse into where you’re based and what you’re setup is there? Alex: [03:50] I live in the Midlands. I can’t say where it is but nobody would ever heard of where I live because it’s a very small town in the Midlands. Essentially, I live near to Derby, quite near to Birmingham, and about two hours from London, just to give it some context. It’s quite nice and quiet where we live in the Midlands. And then, I work in Warwickshire, again in the Midlands, in a converted farmhouse. We have office dogs and goats, which is interesting, to say the least. Joseph: Oh, wow! You’ve got quite the scenic setup over there then? Alex: [04:20] It’s certainly nowhere near a city. Not the sort of typical office block that you would imagine. It’s basically a farmhouse, sort of down a country lane. We have a big field outside, and that’s where the office goats and dogs currently reside. Although, we’re not in the office at the moment. We’re going in a little bit. Obviously, with the pandemic, we were remote working. We started to go back in a little bit, but not fully so we are all missing the animals quite a lot. Although, they are being taken care of, just in case anyone was panicking about that. Joseph: I’ve heard of office dogs. I have to say, Alex, this is the first time I’ve ever heard of an office goat. Alex: [05:00] Yeah. Joseph: Check that out, at some point. Alex: [05:04] We like to do things differently. Joseph: You mentioned you’re working in marketing and PR right now. I know you haven’t always worked in that sector. Can we go back in time a little bit and start from the beginning? Can you tell us about your time as a teacher and what you were focused on? The types of students you were teaching at the time, and then we’ll kind of go forward from there. Alex: [05:22] I suppose my first, sort of what people might say, real job after university was a teacher. I was teaching in a further education college in the UK. Sixteen to 18-year-olds who’d just left compulsory education and are going on to study whatever they would like to study: engineering, travel and tourism, more vocational subjects. It was my job to teach them English. It’s a strange one. I wasn’t a teacher in the conventional sense. The students hadn’t quite managed to get the grades that the government likes them to get. The equivalent of a C grade. It was my job to teach them their English again. It was very interesting, because understandably, as a 16-year-old going into education, finally being able to choose what you want to do, and then to be told, “Oh, hang on a second. You’ve got to do your English again.” To many of those 16-year-olds, that’s quite frustrating understandably. Joseph: Had you always wanted to become a teacher? How did you get into the field of teaching? Alex: [06:35] No. My life is just a series of falling into things. Thankfully, now that I’ve fallen into marketing, I’ve kind of realized that this is what I want to do forever, and it’s the best thing that ever happened. But, in of teaching, in my interview — I was being interviewed for another position in the college, I mentioned that I might like to look into English teaching in the future. Fast forward, not even 24 hours, I’ve been offered a position as an English teacher. It was something that was on my mind, but not something that I just thought it’s my life ambition. Joseph: You mentioned this is a further education college, and that these are 16- to 18-year-olds who were there learning English but didn’t necessarily want to be there learning English. Can you describe the student profile and the learning environment there? Alex: [07:22] They were absolutely amazing young people. I learned so much from them. Their resilience, their thirst for learning was amazing. It’s just that, again, understandably, they wanted to be there to learn their chosen vocation. They wanted to be there to learn engineering or their desired electrical apprenticeships, employment apprenticeships, and all sorts of different vocational subjects that they were super interested in and they loved their subjects. But again, a requirement of doing those subjects was that they had to also, if they hadn’t got their C grade in English or Maths actually, they had to do English and Maths again. They would go to their classes, as usual, as normal. Go to their engineering classes, or travel and tourism classes, and then they would have a couple of hours with me per week. I don’t think it’s a couple of hours that they necessarily look forward to, but I did try my best to sort of make it as engaging as possible or as much as you possibly can do. Obviously, you have to follow the curriculum and you have to teach them to the exam, ultimately. There’s only so much you can do and so much flexibility there. I did try as much as I can because I feel like with my personality, I tried to sort of form a bond with them as much as I possibly could. I did sort of completely sympathize with that position. I explain to them that I understand how frustrating that it must be to be told, “Okay. Go in that room now after two hours and do something you don’t want to do.” Especially, at that age, when you’re a teenager and you’re going into adulthood, it’s like you want that freedom and that autonomy. It felt like I was kind of taking that away from them, so I almost felt guilty about doing it. But, I was trying to help them in their future careers at the same time. Joseph: At what point did it occur to you that teaching may not be what you wanted to do the rest of your life? Alex: [09:11] To be honest, it was quite soon into me working as a teacher, which sounds crazy. Because many people say, “Well, why didn’t you just leave?” And, I understand that. But, I think the idea of being labeled as what is often seen as a negative thing, a job hopper or career hopper, I think that was what I was afraid of because I only just started it and thought, “Well actually, I’m quite good at it.” I’ve got loads of from my colleagues. I thought, “I’ve got to make this work.” It’s a respected profession. I know I’d have job security. It was really difficult to know when the right time was. I think, in hindsight, probably should have done it, left sooner rather than later. I was so obsessed with not being labeled a “career hopper,” which I now realize is silly because you spend more time at work than you do with your family in your life, and you have to be happy with your job. Quite soon but it did take me a couple of years to make the leap. Joseph: What was it like for you during those couple of years when you knew you weren’t in the right location but you couldn’t quite bring yourself to move on to something else? Alex: [10:20] It’s really hard. Anyone who’s in the same position will know how hard it is because it’s a constant battle of wills of what is the right thing to do. Do you stay? Especially, if you’ve got what is seen by society as a respected career, and a safe career, and a secure career. Do you stay? Again, with the salary, decent salary. It wasn’t just the job title that I would be giving up, it was the salary as well. It was just a constant battle of, “What do I do? Do I try and stick it out? Is it going to get easier for me?” I knew it wasn’t right. It didn’t feel right. Even though I feel I worked so hard to be a good teacher. It just never felt right. I knew pretty much, straight away, that it wasn’t what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. Other sort of factors, I guess pressure. The pressure that I thought I might face from other people sort of stopped me from doing that, until I started to do freelance copywriting work on the side, and that’s when everything changed. Joseph: Yeah, let’s shift gears. Let’s talk a little bit about that. You started doing copywriting on the side. How did you get into that and how did you find your clients? Alex: [11:32] The link between English teaching and marketing is quite strong because what you’re doing is creating content all the time for your students. You have to show them not only how to write fiction, but how to write nonfiction. We did a lot of creative marketing. Sort of leaflets and bits and bobs like that, and adverts. I loved that! I thought, “Hang on a second, I love doing this!” As much as I love the students as well, I thought, “This creating content and writing, surely, there’s got to be something in this. Maybe this is something that I need to focus on.” So, I started to freelance as a copywriter thinking, “Well, if nobody hires me, that’s fine. It’s not a full-time job.” I went on Upwork and started speaking to a lovely lady who I thought, “Oh, my gosh! She’s willing to pay me to write. This is crazy!” I did some content for her blog. That’s how it started. I got a couple more clients and thought people are paying me to do this. Maybe it’s something that I can do full-time because that was the job that was giving me energy rather than taking it from me. I think if you’re coming home from work every day, feeling burnt out and feeling lethargic, and so tired, it’s a sign that things are not quite right. Joseph: You mentioned Upwork. I’d like to talk about that for just a second for people who are not familiar with Upwork. Upwork is one of the many online freelancer marketplace platforms out there. There are, I guess, wow, tens of thousands of freelancers on these sites. How did you get started on Upwork? How did you build up your profile? Did you just literally put up a headshot, and then put up a quick description of yourself? Could you just give a glimpse into how you got started on that sort of a platform? Alex: [13:15] It is daunting. Certainly because when you go on it, you realize how many thousands of freelancers you’re kind of competing with. I’d never been paid to write before. What I did was, I built up quite a sort of portfolio by creating content for my students. I kind of used that basically as a portfolio and put some work up. I think finding your niche is a really good way of going about it. I was interested in healthy eating and healthy living, and so that’s the angle that I went down. I searched for jobs that would involve creating content around that topic because it was something that I was genuinely interested in. That’s how I found my first client. I think the fact that in my proposal to her I explained that enthusiasm. She said that that’s why I stood out because I didn’t just say, “Oh, well. I really like writing. Can I write for you?” I said, “I really like writing. Can I write for you? I really like the subject that your blog is about, and I think I can add a lot of value to it.” Joseph: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I guess the temptation when you’re just getting started on these platforms, Alex, is to try to be everything to everyone. But, actually, by being more specific, it’s easier for people to understand what to do with you, and it’s easier to stand out. I guess as somebody myself who’s hired people on Upwork, I’m definitely looking for specialists who focus on a particular area. That’s a good point about that. I also want to talk a little bit about how you went from this freelance work into the work you’re doing right now. I know you kind of walked me through this process but can you just tell me how you uncovered this opportunity to work more full-time in marketing? Alex: [14:55] After a sort of maybe a couple of months of freelancing, it wasn’t very long at all. I started to look into full-time jobs, thinking “Okay. Well, I might have to take a pay cut, but I love doing it.” Like I said before, it’s something that gives me energy and makes me happy and makes me smile, rather than taking my energy from me. I thought there’s got to be something. Someone’s got to give me a shot, even though I’ve got no experience. Yes, I might be starting at the bottom of the ladder again. But, for me, it was completely worth it. So, I started to look into jobs, and I saw this position as a copywriter at Prezzybox. Joseph: Where did you find the ad? Was it just on their website? Alex: [15:33] It was on Indeed. Joseph: So job recruitment platform. Alex: [15:37] Yeah. I’ve not looked at many, but indeed was just one of the first ones that I looked at and looked for. A lot of copywriter positions were in London. And, because I live 2 1/2 hours away from London, that is just not something that I could do. There’s no way I could commute to London, even though that’s where all the jobs were and there was no way of me moving there. I was a bit hesitant about changing careers because I thought, “Well, there can’t be that many marketing positions in the Midlands.” But, little did I know, there’s plenty. I saw this copywriter position, and instead of just sending over a CV, which is what it asked for, I wrote. Prezzybox is an online gift retailer so we sell lots of awesome gifts. I went on the site and I did some product descriptions for some of the products that were on the site, sent them over to the managing director. He gave me an interview because I was the only one that had done that. I’ve gone above and beyond, and it’s not something that everyone has time for. But, if you can go above and beyond, obviously, of course, that’s going to make you stand out. That’s how I got the interview. Joseph: That’s really interesting because I think it can be very daunting to try to approach a job application process as somebody who doesn’t necessarily come from that more traditional linear background. And then, you’re going into the interview itself, trying to sell yourself as somebody who can take on this role. Can you tell us a little bit about the interview and how that went for you? Alex: [17:03] It’s very daunting, isn’t it? Very daunting, unless you’ve got lots of years of experience. Like you’re going into a room and saying, “Hi there. I haven’t done this before but I promise I could do it.” It’s a very bizarre situation. Especially for graduates, that’s just normal because I’d been out of uni for a few years. It was a difficult thing to do, to be honest, to start again. But, the interview was amazing, and Prezzybox is a very informal, sort of family-friendly environment. It wasn’t what I was expecting at all. I arrived dressed very formally with my portfolio in hand, my degree certificate, and all my qualifications. Thinking, “Okay. Well, I don’t know what this is going to be, but I’ll be prepared.” It was just more like a chat. The managing director was just amazing! He was so funny. He made me feel so at ease. It was the most fun I’ve ever had in an interview. I got my degree certificate and said, “Oh, you know, don’t you see it?” He just wasn’t interested, not in a negative way. It’s just that he valued enthusiasm more than pieces of paper. In fact, our Chief Operations Officer at the moment, he didn’t have any qualifications in marketing. He sort of started at the bottom at Prezzybox and worked his way right to the top. There, at Prezzybox, is more about you as a person and what you can bring to the company. They’re not so bothered about your qualifications. Joseph: What happened after the interview? Alex: [18:33] They were really interested in taking me on, but that was for a temporary position. I forgot to mention that. That would have been a temporary role for three months. I was having to make this really big decision. “Okay. Do I leave this secure permanent job that I’m quite good at?” And, I think I would have had job security there. Do I leave that and do I leave this respected profession to do something that my family didn’t even know? My family didn’t understand what copywriting was, which is fair. Because I don’t think I understood when I was at university or when I was younger what copyrighting in marketing was either. But, do I leave that secure job to do a temporary role and take a big pay cut as well? About £10,000 less at this job. It was a difficult one. Me and my husband had lots of long chats about it. Thinking, “Can we make this work? Is it the right decision? Is it sensible?” To be honest, it wasn’t sensible, but we made it work and I did it anyway. The rest is history. And now, I’m still there. Joseph: I can see. You’re talking about some pretty major tradeoffs to consider there, which is permanent to temporary, you mentioned a major pay cut. What ultimately tipped the scales for you to decide that, “Yeah, I want to do this.” Alex: [19:51] It’s a really tricky one because not everybody is in the position to take massive pay cut. It’s not something that everyone can do. But, if you are in a position to take a pay cut for something that you genuinely enjoy, it’s the best thing that I’ve ever done. Of course, you have to adapt in of your lifestyle if you’re taking a big pay cut. But, if you are happy when you get home from work and if you are doing a job that brings you joy, the two don’t compare. And also, you are going to progress, salary-wise, and in of your position much quicker in a career that you enjoy than a career that you’re just forcing to make work. That’s what I was doing with teaching. I was forcing it to work. Whereas, with this job, I just want to learn everything and I want to progress and I want to do this for the rest of my life. I’ve now worked my way up, back up to my previous salary. I think you could do that much easier if you are doing something that you really enjoy. Joseph: I know that a lot of people, Alex, when they’re thinking about making a move a few years after already investing some time into one career, are very fearful of this idea. I think you prefer to of starting again or starting over. Can you just explain what that like was for you to start again in a career? Knowing that this is the career that you wanted to do but I’m just curious what that experience was like for you to “start over again.” Alex: [21:15] It is very difficult because the question you asked about starting again, it was different for me because I haven’t been teaching for a couple of years. But, I imagine it’s even harder if you’ve got an established career and you’ve been there for however many years, it is never, ever too late to change. It is never too late to do something that you want to do. It’s never too late to try something new. I find it difficult because when this age of social media where everybody shares everything, it was quite tough sort of seeing my peers move up the ladder quicker than I was because, of course, I’d started again. That was quite tough. But, at the end of the day, it all comes back to I was going home happy. I was going home, not burnt out. I was going home thinking, “Okay. I didn’t have the Sunday night dread anymore,” which is what a lot of people experience. I enjoyed being at work. I enjoyed spending time with colleagues. It’s just a completely different experience. I’ve said this before, and I say it so much because it’s so true, you do spend more time at work than you do, in many instances, with your family and your friends. Life is way too short to be going to a job every day that you don’t enjoy, or that burns you out, or that makes you stressed. It’s just not worth it. This is a strange quote to pull out, but I was watching the UK version of “The Office” recently. Tim was speaking about his career change and he said, “It’s better to be at the bottom of a ladder you want to climb than halfway up one that you don’t.” And, I feel like that’s a perfect sort of analysis of what any career change, really. It’s better to be at the bottom of the ladder that you want to move up, of course, it is. Joseph: That’s a good segue, Alex, into the last topic I was hoping to cover with you before we wrap up with what you’re focused on right now at Prezzybox. But, just some of the lessons that you’ve learned along the way and just your experience of relaunching your career. You had mentioned something about a topic that I think relates to what you just mentioned, which is that your job doesn’t feel like work anymore to you. What does it feel like to you? Alex: [23:24] That’s an amazing question. It definitely doesn’t. I mean Prezzybox is wonderful. We have a fantastic work-life balance. We have very achievable targets. We’re all working as a team. If we have a struggle, we can just ask our manager and we’ll have that straight away. I’m not just saying that, it is genuinely true. If I want to do a bit outside of work, then I will. I don’t have to, but if I want to, then I will because it does make me happy. Like this morning, I was writing a blog about our Prezzybox staff’s favorite, funny films, and it’s just things like that. It just doesn’t feel like work. It just feels like I’m back at teaching and creating content again but that was the bit of that job that I enjoyed. It has changed my life completely. My husband was experiencing a similar thing in his job. And, because of my career change, he did something similar within his work. And so, his work-life balance is completely changed. It has a knock-on effect with your home life, definitely. We’re both just so much happier now. So much less stressed. I can’t stress enough how important it is to change. If you need to change, and if you’re in a position to change your career, whether that’s because you’re stressed or burnt out or whatever it is, it doesn’t matter the reason. But, if you’re in a position to do so, you have to do it. You just have to do it because it can change your life completely, and it can change your home life as well. Joseph: What was something that you were stuck on when you were pondering the career change that you felt you ultimately had to overcome to move forward? Alex: [25:03] One of the biggest things that was stopping me was because I am terrible at comparing myself with other people. Again, I think because social media bombards you with people — which is wonderful. People being so successful, and maybe up the ladder, and all this success which is fantastic. But, it can make you feel inferior and it can make you feel a bit vulnerable in of your position. I certainly had to ignore the fact that I would be behind if I compared myself to some of my peers of the same age. And then, once I did that and I thought, “Well, you have 40 years or more of working. I’ve got plenty of time to move up because I am ambitious and I do want to progress.” But, what’s the point of doing that in something that you’re not happy with, and in a career that you’re not happy with? Once I’ve sort of silenced the little voices in my head that were saying, “Oh, you can’t do that because then you’ll be behind.” What does that mean? Everyone’s on a different journey, and everyone takes different paths. You should never compare yourself to other people because that, ultimately, will hold you back. Joseph: I catch myself doing that and have done that throughout my career. Especially, during times when I’m thinking about changing careers is to just go on LinkedIn, and just scroll through, and you see who’s getting promoted, and which new job they’ve landed at, which amazing company. For those people out there, and I’m one of those people, who are stuck on this very common barrier of comparing yourself to others and wanting to keep up with their peers, any advice that you have for people on how to let that go and how to silence that comparison voice inside your head? Alex: [26:50] From a practical perspective, I think taking a break from social media is the first thing to do if you’re considering a career change. Because if you’re on LinkedIn every day like you say, it’s fantastic and it’s lovely to celebrate people’s success. But again, it can make you feel insecure. I think if you’re considering that change, come off of LinkedIn for a while, don’t go on it. Try to stay away from social media in general. Obviously, unless your job depends on it, try to stay away from it. To sort of clear your head and say, “Well, it doesn’t matter what they’re doing. It only matters what I’m doing.” And also, I have known in the past some people who have fantastic job titles and great salaries, but ultimately are not happy with their job and what they’re doing. And so, that high salary and job title doesn’t make up for that. It’s not a good trade-off. I think most of us would much rather be, stable financially, of course. You have to be able to afford what you need to afford. But, you’d much rather have a lower salary, a better work-life balance, and be happier at work when you spend eight hours plus there a day, than having a fancy job title just so that others look at you and say, “Oh, that’s a fancy job title.” You can’t compare the two. I think practically coming off of LinkedIn and coming off of anything that makes you compare yourself to other people is my first piece of advice. Secondly, that a nice job title and a high salary aren’t all that you need to make you happy. You need to do something that, like I said before, gives you energy and gives you joy and brings you happiness. You’re not going to get that no matter how high your salary is if you’re not happy in what you’re doing. Joseph: Alright. Well, that is great advice. I would love to wrap up, Alex, with what you’re doing right now and would just enjoy hearing a little bit more about what you’re up to, both in your role at Prezzybox, and also, can you just give us a sampling of the types of things that you guys sell over there? I’ve been on your website myself, and there’s a very interesting array of products you have on there. Alex: [28:49] Absolutely. At the moment, as you might expect, because we’re a gift company, we are gearing up to the busiest time of year. It’s already getting busy in of Christmas gifts. We do about 50% of our sales during Christmas. Sort of on the run-up to Christmas. Things are super busy right now. We’ve just come back from an event in London, from a press event, where we’ve met with lots of journalists and wonderful influencers. We are just gearing up with our Christmas strategy. We’re trying to gear up for this really, really busy time of year right now. In of what I’m doing specifically, we’re looking at PR campaigns that we can push out for Christmas. And also, we’re doing a lot of copywriting because we’re adding a lot of Christmas products to the site. But, like you say, we do have some pretty awesome stuff. We do like putting names and faces on things. We have like a personalized Toblerone. We have a personalized jar of Marmite. For anyone outside of the UK, it’s a very divisive food, Marmite is. I would urge you to try it. If you can’t, you either love it or you hate it. That’s what we’re doing at the moment. Things are getting very busy. Joseph: Alright. Very cool. I would encourage people to check out some of the products you have. I browsed around on your joke and novelty gifts. That probably took more time than I would have thought. I was just browsing through that page. You got a lot of really interesting products on there. I definitely recommend people check out Prezzybox. Alex: [30:18] Thank you. Alright. Well, thank you so much, Alex, for telling me about your life as a teacher and your shift into the freelance, and then the full-time marketing world. And also, just the importance of doing work that brings you joy, energy, and happiness. Best of luck with your marketing and PR role there at Prezzybox. I hope the holiday season goes well for you guys. Alex: [30:39] Me, too. Thank you so much, Joseph. It’s wonderful to speak to you. Thank you. Joseph: As I hope you heard some useful insights from Alex about being specific about what you’re looking to do next, the importance of climbing the right ladder, and the fact that job titles and salary aren’t everything. [30:52]

As if making a good impression at work and figuring out where you want your career to head wasn’t wasn’t hard enough, managing a medical condition on top of all is even more challenging. In this episode of the Career Relaunch™ podcast, Erika Russi, a former tax consultant turned data scientist shares her story of interrupting her own career to address her medical condition. We discuss how your health can affect your career choices. During the Mental Fuel® segment, I also describe my own tendencies to overwork and why hustling all the time isn’t necessarily the healthiest habit in the long run. If you’re someone who’s been working nonstop lately or if you’ve had to deal with emotional or physical challenges yourself, Erika’s story is a good reminder to us all about ensuring we’re always mindful of our health and wellbeing no matter how busy work gets. or if you’ve had to interrupt your career to take care of a health concerns I first heard about Erika’s career change story in this Muse article, where she discussed how she managed to make this big career change from ancy to data science through a combination of upskilling, coaching, networking, and finding her inner confidence to overcome imposter syndrome. So we’ll also discuss why having a nontraditional background can be an asset rather than liability, even when entering a field where most people have more linear careers. Key Career Insights If you’re someone going into a new role from a nontraditional background, your best strategy for demonstrating your value may be to lean in rather than explain away your past experiences. Attempting to compete with traditional candidates on more traditional metrics will just be an uphill battle. Your health should always come before your work. You only have one body and one life on this earth, and if you don’t take care of yourself, your body may force you to do so when you least expect it. Believing in yourself is half the battle when trying to execute a major career transition. Comparing yourself to others is certainly natural, but not necessarily great for your own psychology. Tweetables to Share Prioritize your health. You only have one body. You only have one life. Erika Russi Tweet This Pushing yourself to continue working under exhausting circumstances isn't healthy. Your body will find the most inopportune time to make sure you get the rest it needs. Erika Russi Tweet This Erika’s message to you Given the nature of what we discussed about how much your health can affect your work and life, Erika wants to encourage people to get vaccinated against Covid-19. As she mentioned during the interview, the long term effects of having Covid (“long Covid”) are very similar to her auto-immune disease, fibromyalgia. Even if you survive Covid, there are long lasting effects after having a strong virus like Covid-19. She also wants to highlight that immunocompromised individuals rely on others being vaccinated. So she hopes her story brings greater awareness about the 7% of the population with an autoimmune disease that may be quietly struggling. Although I’m aware we have listeners everywhere, you can refer to your local health authorities’ websites to find out how you can get your vaccine if you haven’t done so already. It’s something we all must do in order to protect ourselves and others. Here are a few helpful sites for our top five countries by listenership: 🇺🇸US- NBC’s Plan Your Vaccine site 🇬🇧UK- NHS’s Book Your Vaccine site 🇦🇺Australia- AGDH’s Vaccine Clinic finder 🇨🇦Canada- Government’s Covid-19 appointment finder 🇸🇬Singapore- MOH’s Covid-19 Covid-19 vaccine registration site Listener Challenge My challenge to you this week is simple, but not easy. I know this because I struggle with it myself. In spite of how busy you are or how busy you think you are, to try and find a way to just go to bed a little bit earlier tonight. Then, stick with that schedule this week. See how you feel. See what impact it has on your work. At the very least, do this to ensure toxins aren’t building up in your brain! About Erika Russi Erika Russi is currently a Data Scientist at IBM after completing a 4-month data science bootcamp at the Flatiron School. Previously, she worked as a tax associate for PriceWaterhouseCoopers with responsibilities that included mergers and acquisitions transaction cost analysis, and as a fund ant for Credit Suisse where amongst other things she developed ing enhancements for IT teams. Her family’s originally from Colombia, and these days, in her spare time, she loves going on walks with her recently adopted senior dog, Marmee. You can follow Erika on Twitter. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare, Tweet to let me and Erika know! Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Subscribe: Be sure to subscribe to Career Relaunch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow Career Relaunch on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Interview Segment Music Credits Hushed by Sibyl Myth by Alan Ellis Canon in Db by Cora Zea Lupina’s Dream by Lama House Paramount Crowning by Rand Aldo Music provided by Epidemic Sound Thanks to Audible for ing the Career Relaunch® podcast Thanks to Audible for ing this episode of Career Relaunch. Audible is the premier provider of digital audiobooks, offering over 180,000 audiobook titles for listening anytime and anywhere on your favorite device. Career Relaunch listeners can a free audiobook and get 30-day trial at audibletrial.com/careerrelaunch. INTERVIEW SEGMENT MUSIC CREDITS Hushed by Sibyl. Myth by Alan Ellis Canon in Db by Cora Zea Lupina’s Dream by Lama House Paramount Crowning by Rand Aldo Music provided by Epidemic Sound Episode Interview Transcript Teaser (first ~15s): If you’re not already burnt out, you will be burnt out. Your body will find the most inopportune time to make sure that you get the rest that it needs. We only have one body. We only have one life, prioritize that before work. Joseph: You can get all the show notes from today’s episode at careerrelaunch.net/77. Erika spoke with me from Brooklyn, New York. Good morning, Erika. Welcome to Career Relaunch. It is great to have you on the show. Erika: [02:55] Thanks for having me. Joseph: I was hoping we could just start off by having you give me a snapshot of what has been occupying you recently, both in your personal and professional life. Erika: [03:07] I’ll start off with my professional life. I’m a data scientist at IBM. I work with trying to get more data awareness, make more data-driven decisions for an internal team. I’m also working on natural language processing. I’m working on a chatbot for internal teams at IBM. Joseph: What exactly does a data scientist do? Erika: [03:33] That’s a great question because not a lot of people have a definitive answer. It’s one of those very hype right now, so I think it means something different to different people. In a general sense, it usually means someone that codes in Python OR, and they do some machine learning. They also could be doing some dashboards, be putting dashboards together, be involved in data pipelines. We talk a lot about big data, and that just means someone that’s able to get a handle on these giant streams of data to really understand what’s going on, to be able to detect patterns to help people make decisions. Joseph: Very interesting. Well, I do want to get into how you ended up getting into this path. But, I think I would be very interested in also just hearing what’s been occupying you, just on the personal side of things outside of work. Erika: [03:07] It’s a little tough to share just because I’m such a private person but I do think it is my responsibility to share. I have an autoimmune disease called “fibromyalgia.” It means I tend to have a lot of widespread pain all around my body. It mostly focuses on my upper body. You’ll also hear maybe people have brain fog. It just it makes me a little tired, makes it harder for me to understand things, or to just really focus on things. It’s really similar to long COVID. When I spoke to my rheumatologist, he pretty much said that fibromyalgia is long COVID. It is very similar to what hundreds of thousands of people are currently experiencing with COVID, and it happened in a similar way for me that I had a virus and my body overreacted with an immune response. This past year was really tough for me. The summer was really rough because heat is one of my triggers. I just had a really awful summer, pain-wise, and lack of focus. That’s really what I’ve been dealing with this summer. I’m happy to share all this, especially because I’m sure so many people are going through it and it may not be obvious when someone’s going through it. I want to share that to spread awareness. Joseph: Thank you very much for sharing that, Erika. I know that we actually tried to record this earlier, but I know you had a surgery recently. Is that right? Erika: [06:13] Yeah. Joseph: What did that involve? Was that related to the fibromyalgia? Erika: [06:14] It’s hard to tell if it was related. Part of fibromyalgia is also the inability to sleep, have restful sleep. I was having a hard time getting restful sleep as well. I think part of it was related to my nose, for lack of a better word. I did get a septoplasty and a turbinate reduction. That means my deviated septum was corrected and turbinates, which are the filters at the back of the nose, they were reduced. The idea is that this will help me breathe better and it will help me sleep better. It’s tough with an autoimmune disease because there’s so many moving parts. You don’t really know if it’s a mechanical issue or if it’s your body, your predisposition to something. Hopefully, this will just help me, on a more general level, get better rest and reduce the amount of issues associated with fibro. Joseph: Hopefully, the surgery helps and I hope that helps you get back on your feet. I know that in our exchanges over our email, I know you have had a tough few months here. Again, I appreciate your willingness to come on to the show, and also just your willingness to share a little bit about your personal story. Before we dive into your full career story, I do want to talk about how this has affected you in your career. Can you also just give a little glimpse about your family and where you grew up? Because when we spoke before, I understand your parents are Colombian, and they moved to the United States when you were pretty young. Is that right? Erika: [07:50] Yeah. I was born in Colombia, and we came to the states when I was 6, in 1992. It was a violent time in Colombia, and my dad had lost his job. We were definitely looking for a place with more opportunity. As cliché as that sounds, it really was the best decision for us. Joseph: Let’s kind of take this one piece at a time here. I’d like to go back in time a little bit more before you were working as a data scientist of behavior at IBM. I know you have always done that. Way back in the day, you were actually working in tax and tax consulting. Could you just take me back to the time that you were working at PricewaterhouseCoopers? And then, we can move forward from there. Erika: [08:35] I was an ing undergrad, and I did my master’s in tax. And then, I got a position at PwC in tax consulting. It was a pretty stressful job as PwC, one of the big four ing firms. You go in and you’re hired because you’re young, and you can work long hours, and that was definitely part of the job. It was also really stressful. It ultimately wasn’t the industry for me, but I’m still very grateful for the time that I have there. I did learn so much about project management, very basic, soft skills, like writing emails and just dealing with teams. That was really invaluable at that time I had at PwC. Joseph: What triggered you to move on from doing that kind of work? Erika: [09:26] I was so desperate to get out when I was at PwC. At that point, I had been diagnosed with the fibromyalgia. I was in my mid-20s, and I had gone on medical leave for two years. When I had returned, I returned to the same role. It was just really hard to manage that kind of job with what was going on with me, personally, with my health situation. And also, ultimately, I was really unhappy in that role. I was looking for a job in ing. It didn’t really matter if it was in tax or otherwise. I got a job at Credit Suisse as an ant, non-tax ant. That’s how I transitioned there. Joseph: Now, you mentioned the medical leave. This was the time when you heard the diagnosis of fibromyalgia. Is that right? Erika: [10:21] Yep. It was 2013. Joseph: I see. Can you just take me back to the moment when you heard that news? What ran through your head after you heard that? Erika: [10:29] To a certain extent, relief, because they definitely felt like it was a little crazy. I was so young to be so sick and bedridden, really, at that point. Like I said, I was working really long hours. It was really stressful. And then, on the weekends, I would just sleep the entire time and I couldn’t really figure out what was wrong with me. I was in a lot of pain. Work was really, really hard for me. I assumed it was related to work. I assumed I was really burned out. But, I went to the doctor just to make sure that maybe it was something else, maybe I had Lyme disease. There were so many different things that could be. We ran through a bunch of tests. Pretty much just trying to exclude everything else like celiac disease, or diabetes, or arthritis. When I got that diagnosis, it was a relief in the sense that I knew it wasn’t in my head. There were a few things I could do. It’s not a curable thing, but at least now I had something that I could google, or I could figure out what the next steps were. Joseph: I’m just trying to imagine because you were on medical leave for a couple years. Is that right? Erika: [11:47] Yeah. For two years. Joseph: For two years. During those two years, you go from working in quite, I’m going to imagine, quite an intense nonstop role at PwC. You’re working professional, white-collar, going to the office every day. And then, you’re on medical leave for two years. What was that like? How did your perspectives evolve during this time about life and also work? Erika: [12:13] Yeah. On the one hand, it was something I needed just to take a step back because I didn’t know what was going on with my body. I knew I had fibromyalgia, but at the same time, I felt like I had no control of what was going on. I couldn’t really manage it. Like I said, work was always really tough. Even, there was a point where I tried to cut down my hours, but it still felt like the pressure to work longer hours that even if I was signed up for six, I would still work eight hours. I had simultaneous carpal tunnel syndrome at this time, too. I was wearing these ergonomic gloves, and I had golfer’s elbow, too. I would wear straps on my elbows. It felt so much more extreme for such a, potentially, simple disease. It felt really straightforward that I had fibromyalgia, but it just felt like the symptoms kept getting worse. Of course, they did. I was not taking rest. I was really stressed out. I wasn’t really addressing the issues. Medically, they gave me the time to address everything I needed to address. The issues with my elbow, my diet, the lack of stress. It just gave me the time to really figure out what I needed. Physical therapy, too. I would go to physical therapy a lot. It really was the moment to try to figure out a strategy for what I was going to do when I needed to inevitably return to work. Joseph: The other thing that I’m wondering about here is because I know there was a period of time before you went out on medical leave. Sounds like you got a little bit of space to reflect and recover from what was going on. Erika: [14:04] Yeah. Absolutely. Joseph: But before you went on medical leave, you were also experiencing a lot of these things in the workplace. What was that like? Did people notice? Erika: [14:13] Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. It was really tough. Especially, in that environment, you’re expected to be at 100% at all times. “If you’re not at 100%, then you shouldn’t be there,” was I think the unspoken rule. There were some people, my colleagues that were really honest with me. In hindsight, I do appreciate it. They said that, “You’ve got diagnosed with this. That sucks. But, it’s just going to get worse as you get older. If you’re going to make it, you really need to push through now because you’re young. You have the ability to do that now. You won’t have the ability to do that later. You got to put your head down and just go through it.” Which at the time was really hard to hear. Especially if it felt like I had no mentorship to help me through that. I had no guidance. It was tough. I think people expected kind of the push-through mentality, and that ultimately wasn’t something I could do. I did have to go on medical leave. Joseph: I want to shift gears here a little bit. Because I know that you went on medical leave. It sounds like that’s what you very much needed at that moment in your life. What happened next for you? I know you mentioned you went over to Credit Suisse. What was the experience of going back into a role in ancy, post-medical leave, and post-finding out that you have this autoimmune disease? Erika: [15:43] After medical leave, I did return to my role at PwC for another two years. I was able to better manage, I’d say, at that point, what was going on. But like I said, that role was not for me and I was really desperate to get out. I think the first job offer I got, I left and I went to Credit Suisse, which was a lot less stressful in experience. It was a more straightforward ing role. I wasn’t doing tax consulting or dealing with clients or consulting projects. It was just a fund ing. We were looking at funds managed by Credit Suisse, and we would do the ing for that. Joseph: I’m just trying to imagine, Erika, what it must have been like to get this diagnosis, to have to take a significant chunk of time off from work to basically take care of yourself and to recover, your rollback into the office, and you’re back at your laptop, and you’re back doing ancy work. Was that surreal at all for you to go from the medical leave back into your day job, and being back in the office, and back into the routine? What was that like for you? Did that feel weird at all in any way to you? Erika: [17:02] Yeah. I know what you mean. I think the surrealism of it was kind of overshadowed by the need for a routine and the need to feel like I was contributing something. The good thing about my fibromyalgia, and especially having it so young, is it made me so appreciative of so many things like basic health care, the importance of rest and sleeping, and good diet. It kept things in perspective for me. I knew I wasn’t having a life-or-death job, like people in the medical industry for example. If anyone ever stressed out, or if anyone ever yelled or maybe crossed the line over something really done at work, it always felt really unnecessary. Joseph: Yeah. Erika: [17:59] That was always really helpful to know that at the end of the day, none of this really matters. This is all just numbers. No one’s going to die. We’re not performing life-saving surgery, so it was great. But I think I needed work again, especially after my medical leave just to feel like I was doing something, I was contributing to a larger need or a larger project. That was really lacking when I was on medical leave. Just constantly focused on what was wrong with me instead of distracting myself with work, which was so important as well. Joseph: Yeah. I mean, just going back to the keeping things in perspective. It just made me think of one of my first corporate jobs where I was working at The Clorox Company, and I was working on the Glad business. I was working on the marketing team. My job was basically to drive demand for Glad trash bags in the market. I one of my first managers, her name was Linda Lori. When I first started there she said, “Just , there are no trash bag emergencies here. Nothing really bad is going to happen to you or anybody else in the world. So, go home at a decent time and don’t work yourself to death here. Yes, it’s competitive environment, but there are no trash bag emergencies.” I think that’s sort of what you’re getting at here. Erika: [19:15] That’s right. Joseph: You’ve moved on to Credit Suisse now, and it’s providing you with some routine. Around 2018, I understand you went through another transition. Can you just describe what happened to you in 2018? Erika: [19:27] Yeah, I laugh about it now because it’s funny, in hindsight. This was right after my birthday. Had gone away for the weekend, and something that the team at Credit Suisse did is whenever it was someone’s birthday, they would either surprised them with a cake, or buy them cupcakes, or donuts. And then, sometimes, have a little “Happy Birthday” singing. I going in to work that morning and getting a call from my boss to come over to a room in a separate building. I just weirdly assumed, “Oh! It’s a birthday thing.” It’s a little early for a birthday thing, but yeah. It’s a birthday thing. I start walking over. And then, I’m like, “No. It’s too early for a birthday thing.” But, I had talked to him about potentially getting promoted this year. Maybe that’s what it’s about. I walk over, and then I go in and I see it’s my boss and some other woman. I’m like, “No. I’m about to get laid off.” Joseph: You knew when you walked in? Erika: [20:31] Yeah. I knew right when I walked in. I saw how nervous my boss was. I got laid off. It was very surreal at the moment. I thought they were kidding at first because I had just thought, “Oh! You’re going to celebrate my birthday.” I didn’t think that was going to happen and it happened, and never expected it. Joseph: That’s around September 2018. Erika: [20:56] Yep. Joseph: What did you do next? You find out this news, go home that day. Like, what’s running through your head, and what did you do next? Erika: [21:03] Yeah. The emotions came quickly. At first, I thought I was the only one getting laid off. I thought it was more of like a firing situation. Maybe I did something wrong because I had to leave the building right away. But, I found out it was a bunch of us getting laid off. The first week, I went through it, let myself experience these emotions. I really was expecting my boss, at the time who I was really close with, I was expecting him to reach out and say something like, “It was great working with you,” or “I’m sorry that’s happened.” He never did, actually. But, I dealt with that first. And then, after that, luckily, I have a very ive husband who just said, “Do what you got to do. Either look for another job, take the time you need.” Ultimately, what I decided, my plan the whole time, was to continue taking Python courses. I had started taking a Python course online on Coursera. Joseph: It’s a programming language. Erika: [22:00] Yeah. Programming language, yeah. I really loved it. And so, I wanted to continue doing that. I said, “Okay. Well, I got a little severance. Maybe I can do this full time with a lot more ability,” I need to complete classes, and I’m paying for classes so it would be good to just take a boot camp style. That was in September, and by October, I was starting a data science boot camp with a focus, not only on Python, but on overall data science. That’s how I started a boot camp. Joseph: Okay. This was at the Flatiron School. Is that right? Okay. At this point, are you thinking about trying to land a job that requires Python programming skills? Erika: [22:43] The amount of time was so short. I didn’t even know what I was expecting. I just knew that I wanted to do some Python programming, and I was just going to do this boot camp. Maybe I’d go back into ing and just have a new set of skills under my belt, and that would be that. I would just continue in ing. I did not think that I was actually going to become a data scientist. I figured I would just learn data science but probably wasn’t for me. Because to be a data scientist, you need to be a genius. You need to know so much math. Joseph: Right. Erika: [23:18] It didn’t cross my mind until the very end of the program that, “Oh! I’m actually going to be the data scientist now.” Joseph: When we spoke before, you mentioned to me just how you found your job. Could you just take me through how in the world do you go from being an ant, then going on medical leave, coming back, going to another . I’m imagining that you’re quite seemingly potentially siloed in this ancy world. How do you then make the transition from that, into finding a job as a data scientist? Erika: [23:45] It really felt unreal. But, looking back on it, it does make sense. How I found the IBM role is one of my classmates in the boot camp, she got a role at IBM working for their internal search team. Part of her larger department, they were also looking for data scientists, and she referred me. It was one of a couple of classmates that she referred. I landed the job. I was more amazed than anyone. I really didn’t think that that was going to happen. I mentioned that in hindsight, it makes a lot of sense. I do think that the skills that I developed everywhere else, whether it’s just basic Excel, basic presentation, basic working with the team, these are skills that some of my classmates straight out of college really didn’t have. I was able to use those skills as an asset, really. When I was interviewing, and to this day, I think it’s amazing to me how much more I use my soft skills than the technical skills that I’m constantly developing and leverage soft skills all the time. It makes sense looking back on it that I was able to do that. Joseph: Was there anything in particular that you learned about the job market? Since you were able to successfully, and very almost suddenly, land this job in such a distant different area from what you were doing before. What did you learn about the job market and how it works? Erika: [25:19] Not to sound repetitive, but I think that that was really the biggest takeaway. That I’m competing with data science PhDs, and people that are recent graduates and master’s in Applied Math, et cetera. These are highly technical people. I can’t compete with them on a technical level. It’s just four months out of boot camp is not going to cut it compared to the potential decade of work that they’ve done in this field. They don’t compete in that sense. I compete by using everything else I learned at my other jobs. It really is harder to teach soft skills to someone than it is to teach technical skills. I use that to my advantage. I knew that it’s if you’re a manager, data science machine learning engineering manager, you don’t want to have to teach someone how to write an email or how to make a presentation, or how to filter down relevant information when you’re making a presentation to a higher up. I knew that I had those skills, and that’s really what I showcased when I was interviewed. Joseph: The last thing I was hoping to talk with you about before we wrap up with some of your learnings is just what you’re focused on right now at IBM. What exactly is it that you do at IBM as a data scientist? I know you mentioned the chatbots before, most machine learning. Can you just tell me a little bit more about your day-to-day job these days? Erika: [26:42] Sure. I can’t mention too much of the technical stuff because we are an internal-facing team. One of my favorite parts of the job is really trying to distill machine learning or data science and to really just straightforward concepts. It’s an industry that tends to be a little gatekeeper-y, and use a lot of really fancy language, like machine learning and deep learning, and there’s no need for that. I mean data science and algorithms surround us in so many things that we do. I think it’s so important that people understand how that process works, and how it is that a machine does the machine learning, how those patterns get identified. They’re just looping people in whether it’s content writer, designer, or higher up that isn’t really familiar with the specifics of the technology. It’s just really boiling that down for them, and just really explaining it in straightforward language so that it’s less of a black box. I think it’s really satisfying and I love that part of my job. That I can make it less gatekeeper-y and make sure that people have a say and understand what’s going on because it really is all around us. Everything that we’re doing with algorithms and data science. Joseph: Very interesting, yeah. That is a world that I know virtually nothing about. You’re absolutely right about the need for there to be people out there who can explain it in plain simple English to those of us who are not involved in that sector. That’s very interesting. Erika: [28:17] As someone who really literally just learned it, it is so important for me, too. Because it felt like it was so unattainable to learn all of these things, and it wasn’t! I’m here as the data scientist. I may not be as nearly as technically advanced as other people, but I’m still able to code and contribute. It’s important to make sure that other people have a say in the things that we’re doing. Joseph: I think that goes back to one of your earlier points about the fact that you didn’t have the traditional background that maybe other data scientists have. But because of that, not in spite of that, but because of that, you’re actually very well positioned to explain this to people outside of your function. Whereas, somebody who’s maybe lived and breathed data science their whole life, they may not be able to extract themselves from it and explain it in a way that’s digestible to the average layperson out there. Erika: [29:13] Exactly. Yeah, very well said. Joseph: Well, the last thing I was hoping to wrap up with, Erika, was just some of the lessons that you’ve learned along the way of your very interesting and winding career journey. I know you mentioned the medical condition that you had to manage, and that you continue to have to manage in your career, and also your life. I know that there are people out there who are also dealing with either a physical disability, or they’re having to take a leave of absence, or even these days, quite commonly, emotional challenges that are really taking over their day-to-day life and professional life. But, what would you say to other people out there who might be struggling with an emotional or physical condition, but have maybe just had to either shove it to the side or to just self-manage it? What would you say to people out there who might be struggling with something challenging in their careers? Erika: [30:02] First, I’d say, “I’m so sorry.” That’s really tough. It really is such a challenge. I don’t want to pretend that everyone has the luxury of taking two years of absence. That’s definitely not the case for everyone who’s incredibly lucky to do that. But, I’d say right now, especially in the context of a pandemic, to prioritize your health in whatever way you can. Whether that’s if you have the ability to take some time off, to really be able to take a step back and listen to your body. Figure out what’s going on. I don’t think pushing through to continue working under the circumstances that you’re going through is healthy. I think if you’re not already burnt out, you will be burnt out. Your body will find the most inopportune time to make sure that you get the rest that it needs. Regardless of whether you need to have a super important presentation or need to finish up a project, your body will decide for you. To whatever extent you can, please prioritize your health. It’s so important. We only have one body. We only have one life. And if nothing else COVID has taught us that it is so important to prioritize that before work. Health is always before work. Joseph: Yeah. That is a very good reminder I think to all of us because I think we can all get in this. I guess, they actually kind of like in popular media and in movies, they almost glamorize this hustle culture, and that you got to work hard to go to achieve all your goals. You have to finish what you started, and yet, there’s a cost to all of that. You’re right! If you don’t pay attention to your body, at some point, your body will force you to pay attention. Thanks for that advice. When you look back on your career change, is there anything that you wish that you had known about making a major career pivot that you now know? Erika: [32:08] I really wish I would have believed in myself more. I think this has been a humbling career transition for sure. Every day at work, I definitely feel like I don’t know anything. It’s constant imposter syndrome, but I’m learning. I’m still going through it, and I’m still figuring things out. I doubted myself so much at the beginning because like I said, I was comparing myself to people that had years and years of technical experience and that really wasn’t the correct route, I think. It is the most rewarding thing to be able to go from, “Oh, wow! I don’t know anything. This is an entirely new topic and subject,” to being able to code just a little bit in it, and then finally really understanding the concept. It’s the most rewarding experience to go from novice to — not expert, but less of a novice. It has been the best part. Joseph: Having been through this career change, what’s one thing that you’ve learned about yourself? Erika: [33:13] That I could be happy at work. Obviously biased by my own very specific experiences, but I just always assumed that work was just work, and misery was always attached to it. But, you weren’t really ever going to enjoy work because work was really just for a paycheck. But, the fact that I really love what I do, that I’m constantly learning, is such a blessing and I really never thought that that would be the case. Joseph: Well, thank you very much, Erika, for taking us through your journey and all the ups and downs. I appreciate you getting into some of those details related to your medical condition. I just wanted to thank you for telling us more about how you actually can stand out and be effective in a role, even if you feel like you don’t have the traditional background of a typical person in that role. The impact your medical condition has had on your career. Ultimately, how you managed to pull off a major career pivot in spite of your condition, and all the challenges you faced along the way. I hope you bounce back from your surgery and continue to make a full recovery. Also, continue to manage your condition the best you can. Thanks, again, for coming on to the show. Erika: [34:27] Thank you so much. Yeah, it was my absolute pleasure. Thank you, Joseph.

Have you ever had an idea for product you feel should exist but does not exist? For some, they would just leave it at that, but in Tommy Kelly’s case, when he struggled to find a natural, sparkling caffeinated beverage in the supermarkets, he decided to create one himself. In episode 76 of the Career Relaunch® podcast, Tommy Kelly, a former nuclear plant engineer turned cofounder of the organic sparkling drinks company Sound, shares his thoughts on figuring out the ideal time to make your carer pivot, building your ideas patiently and persistently, and finding a great cofounder. I thought Tommy would be a great guest for the show because he made quite a radical career change, which I hope can inspire you to also make a change. Also, he has a firm belief that career changes, while incredibly daunting, can also be life-changing in a good way. He wanted to share his story as a way of inspiring others to turn their side hobbies into something more. I hope you enjoy hearing his journey as much as I did. Key Career Insights If your idea doesn’t sell right away, it doesn’t mean you should give up, especially if you know some people have reacted positively to it. You can continue to iterate and improve, until you have your breakthrough. Learning, improving, and iterating are a necessary part of any career change journey. Our careers are in many ways security blankets in our lives that provide stability and predictability. Moving on from a job, even one you don’t like, can be incredibly daunting. Tweetables to Share When embraced and accepted, negative emotions can be a powerful catalyst to positive change in one’s life and can lead to a deeper feeling of meaning and authenticity. Dr. Paul TP Wong Tweet This More Resources How to Handle Toxic Emotions That Hold You Back From Changing Careers, my article in Fast Company- August 2021 Listener Challenge My challenge to you is to fully acknowledge and attempt to overcome one of the daunting, negative emotions you may be feeling as you navigate your own career transition. Whether related to sadness, fear, pride, embarrassment, shame, or disappointment, try to give it a label so you can begin to process it. While no magic bullet exists to tackle any challenging emotion in the midst of a big transition, half the battle is being able to identify it whenever it inevitably shows up during your journey. About Tommy Kelly, cofounder of Sound Tommy Kelly is the cofounder of Sound known known for its unsweetened sparkling drinks that create unique flavors through a combination of Certified Organic teas, botanicals and fruit extracts. A former engineer at the Indian Point Nuclear Energy Center, Tommy came up with the idea for Sound inside the plant to satisfy his own desire for a crisp, carbonated, and caffeinated beverage that wasn’t filled with all of the sugar and artificial ingredients in soda. So he started carbonating tea. And that idea went from hobby to business in 2015, after teaming up with his former colleague, Salim Najjar. After gaining distribution in Whole Foods, they made the official jump to launch Sound in 2016. Follow Sound on Facebook and Instagram. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare, Tweet to let me and Tommy know! Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Subscribe: Be sure to subscribe to Career Relaunch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow Career Relaunch on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Interview segment music credits Night by ikson. Music provided by Plugnplay Music  “Nettson – Last Promise,” “Hayden Folker – Adrift,” and “Keys Of Moon – Warm Memories” are under a Creative Commons (CC-BY 3.0) license. Music promoted by BreakingCopyright.  “Deep” by SergePavkinMusic Nature byInfraction Thanks to BrandYourself for ing Career Relaunch A2 Hosting allows you to offers simple tools and services to help control what people find when they Google you. To clean up, protect, and improve how you look online, visit BrandYourself.com and use promo code ‘RELAUNCH’ to get 50% off a hip. Episode Interview Transcript Teaser (first ~15s): Your career, in a lot of ways, is a security blanket. It’s what provides income and stability. Saying that you’re moving on from that, whether you paved that career or not, is incredibly daunting. That was definitely the scariest thing for me. Joseph: Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. I would love to talk about your entire career going back to your time working in nuclear power and then we’ll talk about your time as a founder. Could you first of all, just kick it off, by giving us a sense of what you have been focused on. What’s been keeping you busy in your career and your life? Tommy: In life, definitely family. I have two young boys, a 2 ½ and 5-month-old. That’s been a lot and I have my wife, Lauren as well. I’m definitely prioritizing time with them. Career-wise, I founded a beverage company about six years ago which I sure we’ll dive into more detail. That’s been pretty much it. Life has been family, Sound and sleeping soundly while I can. Joseph: How has your life been affected by COVID-19 and you can take that in any direction whether it relates to your work at Sound or even just balancing work with family life and your two sons. Tommy: I think for myself, it’s been less of an interruption than maybe for most people. The reason being that I was working from home prior to COVID and our own team is very much remote. That didn’t really change. I was already set up for that. It’s been great in a sense where there is that lack of commute and I was able to spend time with kids and balance that life and career. Outside of that, it really just forced us to kind of all make our circles smaller and spend more time together. I would say that that’s really been the positive of it but from a career perspective going to the office hasn’t really changed. Joseph: I want to go back and talk a little bit more about your transition into working in the space of entrepreneurship and more about Sound. I’d like to first go back in time. I know you haven’t always been the co-founder of an organic sparkling teas company. Way back in the day, you were actually working as an engineer at a nuclear powerplant. Could you tell me a little bit about that chapter of your career? And then, we’ll move forward from there. Tommy: Yes, the unlikely transition. I was working as an engineer at a nuclear powerplant which is north of New York City and Westchester County. It was one of those things where in college, I was studying mechanical engineering and graduate with a degree there. I graduated in 2009 just as the bottom was falling out of the financial markets. There were a few different opportunities career wise that were presented, and this was one. I actually interned there previously. It was the best opportunity so I took the job. It was definitely a unique career to get into at the time. Joseph: I’d say, I’m guessing that most people listening to this, including me, have not stepped foot into a nuclear powerplant. Could you give us a glimpse into what its like to work in one? Tommy: I actually worked in an office building. I was an engineer but I was not in the plant at all times. I was often asked to go into the plant to inspect heat exchangers, valves—whatever it might be. I would spend 80% of my time in a cubicle. If you didn’t look out the window and see a nuclear powerplant right in front of you, it could have been anywhere but when you’re in the plant, it feels like it’s a very—it’s almost like a clean basement. You have boilers, piping, valves. We didn’t get too deep in on the nuclear side. Generally just one month a year during reviewing outages. It’s not a Homer Simpson situation. I think many people envision it like that. Joseph: Right. What exactly was your role there? You mentioned you focused on mechanical engineering in your undergraduate studies. What exactly were you responsible for at Indian Point? Tommy: I had primarily two roles there. The first was on the preventive maintenance side. I was responsible for managing and optimizing a lot of the testing of equipment. It’s like if you get your oil changed or get your car inspected. It’s the same idea. It’s how can we test and inspect the pumps and valves and the equipment to ensure that they’re not failing because it’s always more expensive to replace something that just maintain it. I shouldn’t say always but often times that’s the case. So, that was the first, the preventive maintenance side. Most recently, the career that I actually transitioned from, I was working as an engineer in the service water system which essentially took water from the Hudson River. We pull it into the plant, into the piping system to remove heat. It was just a lot of inspecting heat exchangers, maintaining the pipes and the systems related there. Joseph: Okay, so, you are spending your time focused on maintenance. Sounds like you are working on things that I know very little about like heat exchangers. How did you then go from focusing on that sort of work to starting to think about this drinks company that you eventually went on to found? Tommy: It was one of those things where I knew I didn’t want to be doing what I was doing. I just didn’t know what I did want to do. At the time, I was applying for MBA programs. I was also applying for jobs in the financial markets and something that I felt like had some relevance to engineering. I was applying also for engineering jobs, studying. I was kind of placing these little bets on every direction to see what felt interesting. One of those, at the time, I was carbonating tea just as a bored engineer at a nuclear powerplant. I said, you know, I was surrounded by soda drinkers and I was drinking tea and sparkling water one day and I was like, I wish I could combine these two things as a soda alternative. It would be cold, carbonated, and caffeinated like a soda but organic, unsweetened. It would be lacking all those chemical ingredients that are often found in most big soda brands. That was something that was just a hobby. I knew nothing about the industry. It just really evolved into something over time. Joseph: It sounds interesting because it sounds like it just sort of started off as you trying to create something that you couldn’t find in the marketplace. How did you start to think that maybe you could be on to something and that this could go beyond something for yourself and maybe other people might enjoy it too? Tommy: I can vividly sitting at the dinner table with my wife, Lauren, who was a ed dietician—she still is but she worked at a hospital setting at the time. In parallel with me doing sparkling tea, she would talk about patients who were just so uneducated. There was this predatory marketing where they would say, “Oh, I don’t drink soda, I just drink ginger ale,” or “No, I don’t drink soda. I drink apple juice.” There was just this kind of fire starting to build where it was like, this company needs to exist. There should be beverage companies and consumer companies out there that are advocating for human health and not just making money off of really clever marketing. That was kind of the convergence of where it was like, “okay, this makes sense.” It’s an idea and people seemed to like it and I think it was in those conversations where the ion for it started to build. I was never ionate about tea per se but the other thing in of positively impacting lives was something I felt very much ionate about. That was really the catalyst that took it from idea into more of, “How do we make this into a business?” Joseph: I see. You mentioned earlier that you didn’t really know anything about the market, or how to launch a brand. I know that there are people out there who are listening to the show sometimes and they think, “Oh, I’ve got an idea except that I have no idea how to move forward with it.” How did you take this idea of something you were brewing up in your kitchen and turn it into a commercialized product? Tommy: It took a lot of time. It’s definitely worth mentioning that my co-founder and business partner at Sound, Salim, who was also an engineer at Indian Point. We worked within the same small 8-person group. Between the two of us, I started it and was creating the recipes and brought it to him. He tried it. I started doing that in 2012 and we didn’t launch the product until 2015. It was a very long time where, between the two of us, we were just digging deeper into the market. We were talking to suppliers. We were figuring out how to produce this thing. It didn’t really exist in the market anywhere. No one was producing our product—an unsweetened sparkling tea. It took a very long time. We just let it grow organically. We did a little bit of a market study. We put it out there and see if people like it or not. We put it out in a couple of stores and see how it sells. It just slowly, slowly built. Joseph: One of the things you mentioned was going to suppliers. Were you literally just looking them up and just making appointments with these people and pitch your idea to them? Tommy: More or less. That was actually something early on, that definitely inspired us to really name the brand “Sound.” Actually, early on, our brand was called, “Sodterra.” That was what we launched it as. It was intended to mean “soda of the earth.” 90% of people couldn’t pronounce it but at the time we would be getting these ingredients and spreadsheets from certain suppliers, and it might be a peach flavor and it wouldn’t say peach anywhere on it. So that was a wakeup call to us about the industry in general which drove us towards “Sound” and “Sound” ingredients, organic extracts and other clean ingredients. Going back to the question, we were just asking around, reaching out on the internet, trying to find people who would sold [ingredients]. I just buying loose tea off the internet thinking that’s how you do it. One conversation led to another and the dominos ultimate start falling and you eventually get to the supplier who you should really be talking to. Unless you know someone in the space who can really make those connections for you, it’s a lot of just detective work, really. Joseph: I want to shift gears a little bit. We’ll continue to talk about this topic of Sound. By the way, I love the name. I used to work in branding myself and there’s a lot of names I don’t like. The name “sound” works really well. Tommy: Sodterra might have been one you don’t like. Joseph: I don’t mind it! I like clever fanciful names out there. I want to talk a little bit about your transition. You said in 2012 to 2015, you were spending a few years trying to figure out if this thing has legs. Were you still working in the powerplant at this point in time? And if so, how did you balance those two endeavors? Tommy: I was working there until January 2015. It ended up being about 2 and a half years from the time the concept started to the time I actually moved full time into running Sound with Salim. I one time specifically, I was doing a demo at my lunch break, doing a sampling at a restaurant nearby. I drove there during my lunch break and Salim called me. The plant had shut down and they needed all hands on deck. He left the hard hat for me on the stairwell and I ran straight to the plant but we were really using every spare minute to try to row this business. It was very much a great thing about the job itself too. It wasn’t demanding in a sense where we could be out the door at 3 or 4 o’clock and spend 4 or 5 hours a day or more later that day working on the business. Joseph: How does one decide to move from working on an idea with, in this case, a colleague, Salim, to formalizing that relationship and actually becoming co-founders. I know that finding a co-founder is something that is not easy to do. A lot of people will have a falling out with a co-founder. How did you guys decide, “Hey, this is something I want to work on together, formally, long term.” Tommy: That’s a great question. Salim and I—I think it was the perfect situation where…I think it’s really hard to start a business wit your best friend. There’s always going to be tension. There’s always going to be disagreements that are hard. The closer you are to someone, maybe, at least, the more that egos can play in. Salim and I were very close at work but we also had very complementary personalities. I think we truly saw the value in each other’s skill sets. I started, obviously, the concept and I was protective over it in of letting people in. So, it took a little while but Salim, if you knew him, is just an amazing guy and it really just positively impacts the business and me personally. He really did complement a lot of the skills that I knew. I think for starters, the single think to look at is where…if you’re a single person starting a business you need to look inward and ask “where are my weaknesses? Where do I need help? Where am I not good at? Am I good or bad at sales, marketing or whatever it might be?” If the person you trust is complementary to you and you can really appreciate each other and add value, to me, that’s the perfect scenario. Joseph: Can you take me back to the moment when you decided that you were going to leave your job and work full time on Sound? Tommy: It was late 2014. We got the product into Whole Foods and we picked up distribution. The time was right where we were like, “Okay, we need to stay through to the end of 2014 to get our bonuses and all that good stuff.” At that point, we had determined that the business has legs. There’s something here. We need to really invest into this to give it a chance and invest out time. There’s only so far that we’re going to take if we were working for 5 hours a day part time and being distracted. We made that decision, I think around the latter half of 2014. From the timing perspective, we were like, “Let’s finish the year. Let’s maximize what we can take from the bonus perspective and all that good stuff.” We were milking as much as we could there. So, there were actually 2,000 people on the site and there was only 8 of us working as a group where Salim and I worked together. We both had to break the news to the same boss. He actually was going to Lebanon. He’s Lebanese. We decided he would quit a couple of weeks before me. So, it kind of put me in an awkward spot. Back-to-back, two weeks in a row, we went to the same guy saying that we were quitting to start a beverage company. So that was a bit awkward. That was the scariest part of the whole thing, just breaking the news. Joseph: It’s never an easy thing to resign but to know that you’re doing it right after somebody else in you team has done it is even tougher. Just to talk a little bit now about your journey at Sound. When you look back on, let’s say the first week after you reigned from the powerplant, and you and Salim were thinking about this thing, what was that like? What concerned you the most? What excited you the most? Tommy: I think at that point, it was very much, “you don’t know what you don’t know” mode. In of what excited us, that was the easy thing. There’s an infinite runway. We were going to sell the business for billions of dollars in 3 years. That’s what was happening. So, that was what was exciting. The scary thing was just along the way and you figure out, “okay, this is actually incredibly hard.” This is something where it’s a unique product. It’s in line with trends. People are going to buy it. The scary thing was when people didn’t buy it. And you’re like, “Okay, what did I just do?” But that said, we continued to reiterate and there were enough people that loved it. We knew something was there. There was just improvements needed to be made from a packaging perspective, formulation, or whatever it might be. But I think that was the only scary thing about it in the early days. Joseph: Can you just take me through how you then got this product onto shelves? A really big barrier for a lot of smaller brands is distribution and major retailers. How did you go about doing that? Tommy: I think we initially grew up, most of us, in Duchess County in New York. So, about an hour and a half in New York City. There was a local distributor there that sold healthy dairy products. They did egg, milk, a lot of refrigerated food and beverage items too. They worked with Whole Foods. It was one of those, chicken or the egg things where you have to go back and forth. We were able to find those Whole Foods buyer and say, “Hey, if this distributor would start distributing our produce would you pick it up?” And we need to go to the distributor and say, “Hey if Whole Foods picks it up, will you distribute it?” It’s kind of just inching along those conversations to a point where ultimately they said, “Sure, we’ll give it a chance.” And a Whole Foods distributor picked it up. Prior to that, were able to sell it to a friend who had a deli but that’s not really moving the needle. The sort of getting it on the shelf was the big win for us was getting it on the Whole Foods shelf in the north east. Joseph: Before we talk about some of the lessons you learned along the way, I just have to ask you about the product itself. I was just looking at your flavors out there which are very unique. You got things like rose tea with lime and cardamom, green tea with grapefruit and mint. How did you guys decide on the flavor combinations? Tommy: Going back to the early days, the products were very much framed around function. Our first three flavors were chamomile, Yerba Mate. We had a flavor called, white tea that doesn’t exist anymore. But the idea was first around kind of how you used it within your day. The chamomile was the calm, and the white tea was refresh, and the Yerba Mate was called alive. It was highly caffeinated. So it was different flavors that you would drink through out your day. We started first with the base ingredient hence, the chamomile, rose tea, green tea or Yerba Mate. We were really looking at first, from a caffeinated versus a non-caffeinated perspective. And then also looking at trends. Rose tea was very on trend. It was unique and something that you don’t really see on the market. And then, we have an advisor that we brought in, probably about a year into the business, who still works with us now. We bring him general ideas and he’s the one who is a little bit more in the weaves (?) on flavor and understanding…he came up with the idea that well, cardamom and lime would pair really well with rose tea. It would kind of have a middle eastern concept. We would try a ton of different flavor variations but generally speaking, we start with one base ingredient and a complementary botanical ingredient like lavender or cardamom. There’s the fruit extract too. The fruit component is what we felt like pulled it a little bit more mainstream. Someone would be able to see vanilla, lime or grapefruit. We wanted it to feel approachable but also unique enough that it wouldn’t be just like lemon sparkling water or lime that you’d find anywhere. Joseph: As I’m listening to this, Tommy, you sound very much in your element. If I hadn’t know that you worked in a completely different industry before, I would just assume that you’ve been working in the food and beverage industry for a really long time. How much of your past experiences in the nuclear powerplant end up playing a part, if at all, in your work at Sound now? Tommy: I think at the nuclear powerplant, I have to say, very little. That said, I think it’s just the ions and the way my mind works and Salim as well, that both drove us to pursue careers in engineering. It’s very much about resourcefulness and the mindset that there’s a solution to every problem. It’s always having that mindset and continuing to learn. We both love to learn, improve, and iterate. I think all of those things from a bigger engineering perspective are all incredibly relevant. But if I was in a nuclear powerplant, for better or for worse, I think I didn’t retain a whole lot. Joseph: The last thing I wanted to talk with you about, Tommy, is just some of the lessons that you’ve learned along the way of your quite radical career change. One of the things you mentioned to me before we started recording today is that making career changes can feel incredibly daunting but also life changing. I’d like to ask you about both parts of that statement one at a time. First, what did you find mot daunting about making the career change? Tommy: The most daunting for me at the time, was really just… Your career, in a lot of ways, is a security blanket. It’s what provides income and stability. Saying that you’re moving on from that, whether you paved that career or not, is incredibly daunting. Just losing that, making that major life change is daunting. That was definitely the scariest thing for me. Moving beyond that, I mentioned we had this stage of bliss where you’re like “Okay, we’re free! We’re off the leash!” And then I would say years after that is when it really started to become a bit scarier on the financial side. In a prior career, when we you need a day-off, you can get a paid day-off. But when you run your own business, generally, the only thing moving the needle forward is you or your business partner. If you’re not working, that’s it. The clock stops. So, that’s the scary thing there from a financial perspective is you have to be working every single day, generally, to be able t continue pushing that forward—to be able to get back into that level of security where you know there’s enough of the business around you to keep paying the bills. I think that’s how things evolved from scary to exciting and then a blend of both. But mostly driven by the security that your career provides for you. Joseph: How has your life changed since moving from working in a secure job at a powerplant to launching and now running your own drinks company? Tommy: It’s definitely been an incredibly positive change. I’d be lying if I said there weren’t moments where there was “Okay, what are we going to do if we don’t close on this financing?” Or when we can’t pay for this or that. That’s always present and it’s kind of looming. Anyone who owns a business has that in the back of their mind. But beyond that, it’s been an incredibly positive change where I used to wake up and dread going to work. I would sit there and just scroll through the internet or whatever that might be. At this point, I wake up and I’m excited. I wish I had more time to work. That’s what we all dream about in a sense. Not just to want to work every single minute of every day but to love what you’re doing that much that you would actually even consider that. It’s been incredibly positive and my wife actually works with us here. To be able to work with her and be able to have that balance with the family as well has been incredibly positive. Joseph: I did want to ask about that, Tommy. You mentioned that you’ve got a couple of very young boys. I think one is 6 months old. The other one is not even 3 yet. How do you balance the work with fatherhood and parenthood. I’ve got one young daughter and she’s coming up to four and I can barely balance anything going on around the house versus spending time with her and also running my own business. What have you learned about managing that balance yourself. Tommy: It’s a lot. My wife and I joke about that it feels like every minute is scheduled to an extent but the first things to go are things that are for yourself like leisure. I have friends who are golfing and going on trips and outings and this and that. The first things to go for me are golf, watching sports, or whatever it might be, right? That’s something that I’m very much comfortable with. Loving what I do, building that and then spending time with my family. I love being a parent. I think as long as you kind of love what you do and love being a parent and you’re willing to invest into both, it’s great. It’s definitely tricky especially in the past year or two with COVID and all the challenges that it brought especially not being able to leave. There’s definitely those challenges but I think it comes down to being focused and being scheduled. Getting up early to get your work in or to get your half hour of just to sit and do whatever it is you might want to do like read a book. And just not having wasted time is really the biggest thing. Joseph: I want to wrap up, Tommy, with what you’re doing right now there at Sound. Can you just tell me a little bit more about what’s next for you and what’s coming up on the horizon for you and Sound? Tommy: For us, a lot of it now is just continuing to grow distribution. We spent a long time just iterating and evolving within the market. A few months ago, we launched a completely revamped brand and packaging and all that which has been huge for the brand and our sales velocity. So now, we’re starting to expand geographically, growing our team. We just hired a couple more people over the past month. The team is growing, the business is growing. We’re really just focused on expanding now that we feel like we have the positioning, the product and the right spot. Joseph: That’s very exciting. If people want to learn more about you or Sound, where can they go? Tommy: For Sound, it’s drinksound.com. You can find us on Instagram too @drink.sound. I’m personally on Instagaram, @tommy.kelly. You could also email me, anytime at [email protected]. I think those are probably the best two spots. Joseph: Thank you so much, Tommy, for telling us about your unique journey towards founding your own company, the upside of making a bold career change, and also your life as an entrepreneur and father. Best of luck with that new distribution push and with growing the business. Thanks again for your time. Tommy: Of course. Thank you so much for having me on to tell the story, Joseph.

Is it ever too late to explore your other career interests? Marketer turned voiceover artist, actor, model, and writer My Ly doesn’t think so. Her firm belief is that it never hurts to give something a shot, even if your background experience is unrelated or when you think your chances of “success” are slim. In this episode of the Career Relaunch podcast, My shares her story of pursuing a few different side hustles during the height of the Covid-19 pandemic and discusses what opportunities have emerged from these explorations. We talk about the trade-offs of full-time employment versus self-employment versus contract work along with the importance of maintaining a positive mindset when exploring new career possibilities. Key Career Insights Dabbling in different areas without layering on too much expectation can be a really effective way of opening up new doors in your life and career. Things may not work out exactly the way you think they will, but at the very least, you’ll learn something along the way. Timing plays a huge role in the career pivots. Even if you feel like this moment isn’t the right one to make a leap, reframing your attitude to focus on just giving things a try rather than trying to succeed can enable you to take action. Anything is possible at any age. Just because you haven’t dabbled in something before doesn’t mean you can’t get into at a later age. Tweetables to Share If it's possible for someone to achieve something, why can't that person be you? My Ly Tweet This Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel segment, my challenge to you was to give something a shot. To give something a go that you’ve been thinking about trying out for so long. To focus less on whether you’ll be good at it or as good as others at it, or whether you’re going to be “successful,” but rather to focus on attempting it for the sake of exploration, learning, and most importantly to finally just seeing where it takes you. Maybe it goes nowhere. And that’s okay. But maybe it can be the start of something you never imagined would be possible for your career and life. About My Ly- Marketer, Actress, Voiceover Artist, Model, and Writer My Ly is a ionate, energetic, and creative individual who loves networking and helping others to inspire and grow. With over two decades of marketing experience in the beauty, construction, banking, and hospitality industries and a love for writing as she works on her debut novel, My has made the most of the lockdown period, during which she’s done work as an actor, voice over artist, model, and editor during the pandemic. She’s now doing what she can to inspire other people with creative interests to pursue their dreams. During our chat, My referred to the Cutty Sark, where she’s the featured model on their homepage, the London Transport Museum where her voice is featured in one their exhibits, and View Magazine where she’ll be doing some editorial work. To learn more about My, follow her in Instagram or Clubhouse @my_petite_my. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare, Tweet to let me and My know! Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Subscribe: Be sure to subscribe to Career Relaunch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow Career Relaunch on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to A2 Hosting for ing Career Relaunch A2 Hosting is the web host provider I use and trust for my own websites, and they even offer 100% carbon neutral green hosting. For an easy, fast, and affordable way to get your personal website online today, visit careerrelaunch.net/a2 to get 50% off your web hosting plan. Music featured in show Isobel O’Connor / Band of Cubs, Our Waters / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com From Now On / Magnified / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com Alex Ora / Daylife, Walk the World, Into the Mountains / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com From Now On / Magnified / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com View Points / Imprints of Life / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com Headlund / Doors Wide Open / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com Lindsay Abraham / Morning Hike, Sunday Bright / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com Episode Interview Transcript Teaser (first ~15s): If its possible for someone to achieve something, why can’t that person be you? Unless you give things a try, you’ll never know if something is achievable or not. Joseph: What are you up to right now? What have you been doing in the past few months? What’s been keeping you busy? My: Back in September of last year, right at the beginning of the first UK lockdown, I ventured into some side hustles. I experimented with acting, voice-over work, and that’s been quite interesting because it’s not taken me to my current situation. I’m really sort of pursuing those particular creative outlets. Joseph: You’re also working full time, right? Can you remind me of what you’re up to right now with your full time work? All these voice acting and modelling, you’re doing this on the side, right? My: I work a full time job in marketing and I’ve been working in marketing for over 21 years now. I love what I do from a day-to-day perspective and I always have loved marketing. But I’ve also been a very creative person as well all throughout my life. With these side hustle experiments—or side hustles, shall I say—they are all fitted in and slotted around my day job. That can be quite challenging because my marketing day job is very busy and hectic. I’m juggling both then demanding day job, as well as then, evening to weekends and early mornings, fitting around all the other aspects that I’ve fallen in love with as well. Joseph: We should probably go back in time a little bit. I know you’re working in marketing right now but you had a few detours along the way, from what I recall. I think the first time you and I crossed paths, in 2012 or 2013 when we served as judges in London for a marketing award event. You were working marketing sushi for Yo! Sushi and I was marketing ice cream for Häagen-Dazs. Can you tell me a little bit about your earlier career in marketing? After that we can talk about when you stepped away from it, returned to it, and how you fit in all these side gigs. My: It was really early on, taking us back to my university days. I actually did an advertising and marketing degree. I really loved it and then fell into working into my first marketing job. I worked first in a lot different marketing sectors and industries. From the hairdressing industry, construction industry, banking industry, and hospitality industry—which has been a massive love of mine for over 8 years now. For me, it was quite important to think about different industries and also experience those industries because I think you don’t necessarily know what type of industry or company you might want to work for. I’ve been working in hospitality for probably 8 years now, and it’s obviously my marketing day job. An opportunity came up for me to work in of my marketing consultancy side of things. It’s always something that I’ve wanted to do but never had an opportunity. So, when the opportunity came up, I really wanted to give that a go. I loved it. I had a couple of clients straight of the book and I really enjoyed working with those clients. Joseph: Were you doing that alongside you full-time job or did you completely stepped away to do your own independent consultancy. My: I had stepped away from my full-time job and then became self-employed and worked as a marketing consultant. I really enjoyed that. I think it’s a very different ball game when you came from working, for a long time, in permanent salaried jobs and then switch over to being self-employed, running your own business, running your own consultancy. I can definitely see different pros and cons being on both sides of the coin. I really did love going out, networking, getting my own clients and working with my clients as well. One of the reasons why I decided to come back into more of a contract role, initially, and then come back to a permanent, salaried member or staff, is because actually of my creative paths and routes. I was also wanting to work on my debut novel. I think what I quickly realized when I was working on my marketing consultancy is that working on your own business means you’re working on it pretty much 24/7. That’s really what led me to start thinking about how I’ll be able to carve out some time to do something a bit more creative and to start working on my novel again. How could I do that? What I wanted to do was to go back to a contract role, first of all, and then have the stability of getting back into a permanent job. Joseph: Let’s go back a little bit here. There’s a couple of transitions that are quite interesting. You went from working full-time to being self-employed. What surprised you about working on your own? What were your plans and how did things actually pan out? My: One of the biggest challenges about being self-employed, especially quite early on and quite new to it, I realized quite quickly that I missed the whole kind of having my own team, department, and being able to bounce off ideas with other people as well. That was quite a big shift and change. You’re obviously very reliant on yourself in either networking or pitching to get new work. A lot of the time, you’re potentially working by yourself unless you collaborate with other entrepreneurs. That was quite a big shift, having worked in a company with departments and your own teams where there was more than just one of you. Where as when you’re transitioning into becoming a marketing consultant it was a bit more challenging having other people to kind of bounce off ideas from. Joseph: I can definitely relate to that. I think when you’re working on your own, it can feel very isolating and very solitary at times. This is even way before COVID, when everybody else seems to be in the office and you’re kind of on your own doing your own thing. It can become very lonely at times. At the same time, it does offer you some freedoms and the flexibility and autonomy to do whatever you want, whenever you want, work with whichever clients you feel would be best for you. What was it like to then go from that world of working independently and then back into a more traditional contract or full-time job in marketing? It’s always been something that I felt could have ended up being the path for me. It’s not what I ended up doing but I’ve always been curious about what it’s like to go from being self-employed and back into the full-time world. My: Timing is everything, Joseph. I think sometimes things obviously happen for a specific reason within your career and lifespan. I think for me, personally, it was probably the right time to come back into, not quite a permanent job, but into a contractor role. I’m the type of person that really enjoys variety in my life so I think the contractor world suited me because it was still quite similar to running your own marketing consultancy. As a consultant, you are working with different clients. For me, it was quite a nice transition because it almost seemed like the next natural step was to get into a contractor role which meant I could work for different companies and view it almost like a marketing consultancy lens before I again transition back into a permanent job for a company. Joseph: You go back into a contractor role. Speaking of variety, let’s dive into this topic. When you an I reconnected, it was earlier this year, you mentioned that you accidentally got into creative side hustles such as modelling and acting. How in the world did that come up for you? My: The first that came to me was really the modelling side of things. During the first lockdown, as most people were, probably, slightly stirred crazy of being in lockdown, I ended up spotting a Facebook post in my local community. During the first global pandemic and the first lockdown, I ed a couple of local groups just to keep a eye on the fact of which supermarkets didn’t have any toilet roll or didn’t have any pastor or eggs. And then a lady put up a post and she ended up being the marketing manager for the Cutty Sark Museum based in Greenwich. It was a famous museum, a popular tourist attraction. They wanted to invite local people to come along and be part of their reopening marketing campaign or advertising campaign. I applied for it. I invited some of my friends to apply for it and it was just something to do. It was just something that I thought, “It would be quite nice to get selected because it means I wouldn’t have to be wearing jogging bottoms or track bottoms for one day or for a couple of hours.” It was a really exciting thing to do. So, I just went on and applied for that. I ended up getting selected for that particular modelling shoot. They ended up using me as their lead models. I was on their website. I was on their social media posts. I was on bus sides and outdoor posters as well. Joseph: How did you get your headshots done? Did you hire somebody to do that? Did you do it on your own? Did you have some that were ready to go? My: I literally applied with a couple of headshots that I had in the past and they just selected people purely off the photographs that you email to them. Joseph: Had you thought about doing modelling in the past? Had it ever cross your mind or was this just something that you did completely on a whim? My: I completely did this on a whim but I have done modelling shoots previously before. The other side of me is for over 15 years, I’ve actually been an extra, fitting it around my day job when I can. I’ve worked on films like Harry Potter, for example, or Twenty-Four, or the Kingsman. I’ve been in shoots with Samuel L. Jackson on the Kingsman. For me, it’s been a really interesting creative outlet that I could do which was completely different from my day job. I’ve been doing that for such a long time. Through my extras agency, I would also get a couple or a few modelling jobs but they’ve been quite a while in the past so I’ve never really thought about being a model at all. And, Joseph, obviously, you’ve met me, so you know how short I am. I’m only 5-foot. The stereotypical viewpoint of models, as you know, very tall, very slim. So, I’ve never taken modelling very seriously. I’ve done a few jobs in the past through my extras agency and then this job came up for the Cutty Sark Museum advertising campaign. I got selected for it and I really enjoyed it but it wasn’t really until when the photographs came back and they were part of the advertising campaign for the Cutty Sark that the modelling side of things really started. I probably owe a lot of the credit to my waxing lady, Linda. She was the person who said to me, “My, have you thought about modelling before?” And it was only at that point when she said that to me, that I thought, “You know what? I haven’t really thought about it seriously before. These photographs have come out pretty well. Why don’t I give it a go? Why don’t I create a website?” I had some different headshots. I had some photographs previously before. I built myself a really basic website and that’s how I kind of started. I started ing some casting websites and started applying for different modelling jobs. Since then, I’ve been doing various different modelling shoots. I’ve been put forward for some quite big names jobs. I was put forward for a virtual advertising campaign for Harvey Nichols. I’ve done modelling shoots—my first fitness modelling shoot for My Zone, a fitness brand. There’s been other various, both paid for and also non-paid, shoots. I really loved it. I loved being part of an industry that is known for potentially [ ] and how you look. I think it’s more about the relationships and the connections that modelling projects can actually offer you. So, I absolutely love working with photographers or make-up artists or hair stylists. It’s just a really lovely way of connecting with other creative people. Joseph: That sounds like a lot of fun and its good for you for putting yourself out there and making all that happiness. It just sounds like its kind of been rolling along for you, since that initial gig. That’s super exiting. I’ve always wondered what would it be like to be a model. I’m not model-material by any means but it’s this world that you see on TV and of course everybody’s seen models in magazines and so, are there any misconceptions that you had about the modelling industry that you feel has been debunked for you? My: I think I’ve realized now, having come into the modelling industry, is that there are all different types of models. Previously before, I probably even didn’t think about modelling at all—which I didn’t—because I thought it would potentially require a certain look or a certain type of person that could fit inside that modelling world. Since I’ve come into the modelling industry world I then realized that you can get all different types of models and there’s so many types of modelling jobs as well. So, anybody could be a model and become a model because there are jobs to suit all different people in of what height they are, how they look, what different categories or sectors or whether that’s a fitness model, commercial model, lifestyle model, or fashion model. The most important part is understanding now that most people can be a model if you wanted to. I’m also someone who is not a spring chicken. I’m in my early 40s now, so part of the modelling industry and the acting industry, what I’ve come to realize is the fact that anything is possible at any age. It doesn’t necessarily mean that just because you’re not 20 years old or 30 years old, don’t discount the fact that you could become a model or an actor even at an older age. I think that’s one of the most important things that I’ve really learned across these past seven months and also something that I’m really ionate about in of encouraging and inspiring other people if they are itnereted in becoming a model or an actor but they lack the confidence because they think they’re too old to do it in those industries. Or that they haven’t dabbled with it before. They kind of thought about it and it’s something they kind of wanted to do but they’ve not known the right course to get on to. Or they haven’t thought about it because their normal lives’ taken over and its not something that they’ve really considered. I’m actually now really championing and encouraging others that if they are interested in those industries, they should give it a go and see what happens. Joseph: That’s a great lesson My. A lot of people, including me, assume that our careers are pretty much set at that point and there’s no room either for a side hustle or a new career or there’s just no opportunity or possibility for it to be a reality. It’s a good reminder that it’s not too late. Speaking of being able to get into anything, before we talk about some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way, we’ve got to talk about acting a little bit here. How did acting start to creep in to your career on top of your contractor role and on top of the modelling you were doing on the side? My: Like the modelling side of things, the acting side of things I’ve completely fallen into by accident during the first lockdown. I had wanted to try and carve out more time to work on my debut novel. The main character in my debut model is an actress. I wanted to try and understand what actors do. What do they think? What do they feel? What is acting? What does it mean? Obviously, from my point of view, I’ve never done an acting course. I’ve never been an actor. I knew a couple of friends at that point who were actors but I didn’t really know or understand what actors do. So, I thought the best thing would be to book myself onto a 3-month beginners’ course in London. Usually, the court would be face-to-face, in person, but because of COVID-19, it had to run as an online course. It was only after doing that first acting course of 3 months that I completely fell in love with acting. And again, by complete accident, I find myself carving out another creative career and I’m excited what’s going to happen next with it. Joseph: I think you’re dabbling with these areas and just seeing where it takes you and that’s a really interesting way of having these new opportunities emerge for you. My: I don’t think I would have ever guessed that I would’ve gotten into modelling or acting. If someone would’ve asked me a year ago or seven months ago, “Would you get into acting or modelling?” At that time, I would’ve gone, “No! Of course not. I’ve never even thought about doing it.” It is really interesting of when you think about doing something but maybe not put that extra pressure on yourself in of it is the only thing that you can see yourself doing and piling on that huge amount of pressure is what sometimes actors might do. If you’re able to think about certain careers or jobs where you want to give it ago and give it your best and your all into it, but it might not necessarily be the be-all-end-all. If you’re kind of just exploring it and you’re seeing it more of an experiment to kind of see how far you can get into it, I think it just helps to alleviate that extra pressure that you can put on yourself. And also, alleviating those expectations of success. Joseph: I’m definitely guilty of this. I get really attached to the potential outcomes and achieving those outcomes and that makes the whole endeavour very daunting and I don’t even end up doing it. It’s a good reminder to detach yourself from it a little bit. This is a really good foray into the last thing I was hoping to talk to you about, My. Before we wrap up with what you’ve got going on at this moment, because I know you’ve got a couple of interesting opportunities that have popped up for you. You’ve mentioned the lockdown a few times. I’d like to talk about some of the things you’ve learned along the way of your career journey and I often hear from people who want to change careers that they want to wait for the right moment before they make their move. We’re recording this in mid-2021 and it sounds like these modelling and acting gigs came up for you during the past year in the middle of the pandemic, at the exact time when a lot of people would say it’s not a good time to do something new. What would you say to somebody who’s maybe holding off on pursuing a new path in their career because they feel like now isn’t a quite the right time to make a bold move—either because of the pandemic or because of any other reason in their life. My: Obviously, every person is different and it depends on the life stage and also the personal circumstance. I was really keen, right at the beginning of the lockdown, to not be consumed or worried unnecessarily about the whole doom and gloom of COVID-19 and making sure that I would keep myself really busy so that I didn’t really have time to be worrying about everything that is to do with COVID-19. Having a really positive frame of mind and maybe reframing things is actually a really big part of what I’ve learn so far across these past seven months when I first started pursuing both of these two creative outlets. Reframing your mind is something that can be done by anybody and can be relevant to how people might be thinking if they feel that, “this is maybe the wrong time for me to do it” or “this isn’t something that I’m going to be good enough to do at this particular age.” But if you reframe that to think about the fact that why don’t you just give it a go? See what happens. That’s the kind of attitude I’ve taken on board. I’ll give things a go. Things might not necessarily work out the way that you think it’s going to work out. It might not necessarily take you to the career path that you’re expecting but I think if you can reframe your mind to just give things a little try, even during this period of lockdown where things are very uncertain and things can be quite difficult, I don’t think that you will necessarily lose anything but you might just gain several things. That’s the kind of attitude that I’ve taken on board. I think that’s the other thing about not thinking about if this is the right time. There’s also that fear factor that can creep in and hold you back from doing something. The things that I’ve really learned to across the past seven months is that you have be brave. You have to reframe your mind. Give it a go and just see what happens. And if nothing else, you might just pick up a new skill. You might just make a and network with a new person, a new friend. You might create a new friend. I guess it’s just having that positive mindset to be willing to give things a go and be willing to be brave and see how that next step might take you to a different place or to a new opportunity. Joseph: Speaking of opportunities, what’s something that you’ve learned about yourself over the past year as it relates to opening up to new opportunities in your career. My: Anything is possible. I know that sounds really, a little bit, too positive or maybe too unrealistic but if it’s possible for someone to achieve something, why can’t that person be you. Unless you give things a try, you’ll never know if something is achievable or not. What I’ve tried to do across the past seven months is not limit my beliefs to, “I can’t do this.” But instead, reframing my mind and so I could give it a go and see what happens. I’ve never wanted or thought of becoming a model before and I’ve never thought of becoming an actor before. Seven months forward, I find myself doing exactly those two things. Joseph: The other question I have for you, My, is I’m hearing is the practicality of having so many things going on because this sounds like a lot. Modelling, acting, taking classes, your full-time job. How do you fit all that in and how do you manage that? My: I think it’s all about prioritizing certain elements. At the moment, for example, I’m having to take a little more of a back seat on the modelling side of things because the acing side of things is coming a bit more to the forefront and I’m focusing on that a little bit more. I think it’s about trying to work through in your given week, what you can realistically achieve. There are little things that I try and do. For example, for the acting side of things, I try and apply for some castings so just some jobs maybe 10 or 15 minutes per day. I’m not spending hours and hours on trying to apply for jobs but I might carve out 10 or 15 minutes everyday in the evening or in the morning before I do my day job, I’ll couple batch of applications out of the way and I think it’s just trying to work through what you might need to do on a day-to-day basis in order to be able and try to progress those two avenues that I’ve now decided to pursue. These are small little steps which hopefully, over time, whether that’s across the next couple of months or the next year, will then turn into fruition and into certain projects of certain shoots, etc. that I will be able to add to my CV and add to my skill set. Joseph: I want to wrap up with what your doing right now, My. Speaking of hardwork and things coming into fruition, I know you’ve got some irons in the fire here with some exciting opportunities. Can you just tell me a little bit about these potential gigs that you’re in the running for? My: I’ve got two projects which are definite. I’ve been chosen as an understudy for a short theatre play which is based on a true story about domestic violence and it will be predominantly played by an Asian cast. There are no set dates yet for that short theatre play but we’re hoping that its going to be at the end of this year or next year. It depends on how the world of theatre is going to open up again after lockdown. It’s an interesting role because that will be my first understudy job and it’s another chance for me to learn in of an understudy role. I’m really excited about that. I’ve got a second project, which will happen in the summer. I’ve done my two voice over jobs and this second voice over job is for an exhibition installation at the London Transport Museum. My voice is going to be used for an exhibition in the summer. So, that’s will be a really exciting to be able to go to the London Transport Museum and hear me talking to me. That will be really exciting. During lockdown, I’ve also got myself an editorial role for a luxury lifestyle magazine called “View Magazine”. I’m going to be focused on writing articles and reviews that are focused around the acting, film and literature world. I’m just sort of getting to grips about what my first few articles might be. So, that’s really brilliant but I suppose the projects at the moment from the acting side of things, which I’ve recently put forward for is something that I can’t disclose details, but I’ve been put forward for a regular role in a big TV soap. I’ve been selected for the first stage. There’s a self-tape audition which I’ve just done and completed. I’m just now waiting to see whether I make it through to the second stage but even if I don’t get any further, it’s a massive achievement to just get to first stage. I’m just really excited and pleased to even be put forward for this particular role. That could be a very exciting prospect, if that pulls through. If it doesn’t, I will definitely be a lovely achievement to add to all the other unexpected achievements that I’ve managed to do across the past seven months. Joseph: Congratulations, My. That sounds super exciting.

Do you ever wonder if it’s too late for you to start your second career? You should never say never. But only you can create the change you seek. No one will do it for you or hand it to you on a silver platter. Having spent 20 fruitful and fulfilling years in the business world, including operating her own successful digital marketing company, Pam Katz is now happily immersed in her second career, nursing. I decided to have Pam on the show because, first of all, given the current pandemic, we’re long overdue for having a nurse on the show. And also, because she’s going to share some useful insights on what it takes to completely shift directions in your career, even if that journey’s a little more challenging than you expected. During the Mental Fuel® segment, I’ll address a listener question about what to do next after you’ve been let go of a job you didn’t like very much in the first place. Key Career Insights and Tips You’re not necessarily going to reach your moment of happiness overnight or your first foray into something new. Putting in some extra exploration and legwork upfront will increase the chances of you finding your way toward a more fulfilling job. When you are starting a new job, you have to lean heavily on the skills and talents that have gotten you to where you are in your life. Those skills aren’t completely irrelevant, even if you feel a bit like a fish out of water. Just because you have a bumpy start to a new role doesn’t mean it’s been the wrong move. Every new job has a steep learning curve, which is par for the course. You're not necessarily going to reach your moment of happiness overnight. Pam Katz Tweet This Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel segment, I addressed a listener question about how to figure out what to do with your life. My challenge to you if you’re unsure of what to do as you look ahead in your career is to step away from trying to figure it all out on your own and proactively reach out to someone in your network to talk things through. The skies may not part immediately, and you may not have any sort of epiphany after the first few conversations, but there is a real power in live discussions that may help you uncover a few helpful themes that help you narrow down the overwhelming number of options out there. You never know what ideas may come up that you never considered before. About Pam Katz, Oncology Nurse Pam Katz spent 20 years in the business world, including operating her own digital marketing company. Around the age of 40, she went through a mid-life “re-evaluation”. Even though she had a successful business and was good at what she did, she didn’t feel fulfilled by what she did each day. She decided something had to change, and eventually went back to school to get her master’s in nursing. She’s now happily immersed in her second career at the Rush University Medical Center as a hematology/oncology ed Nurse. She also volunteers her time to help vaccinate people against COVID-19 in the more vulnerable areas of her city. Taking care of others is in her blood and she’s now in a role that helps others, gives back and serves the greater good. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare, Tweet to let me and Pam know! Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Subscribe: Be sure to subscribe to Career Relaunch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow Career Relaunch on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to Harmoni for ing Career Relaunch Thanks to Harmoni Design for ing this episode of Career Relaunch. The Harmoni Standing Desk offers a smarter, healthier way to work with its simple design that fits into any workspace. It’s the standing desk I’ve used myself since 2020, and Career Relaunch listeners can get 15% off any Harmoni order by visiting CareerRelaunch.net/Harmoni and using discount code RELAUNCH when you check out. Music featured in show Isobel O’Connor / King of Forest Green, My Favorite Tree, Our Waters / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com Rippled Stone / Descend, Tales of a Town, Before it Ends, My Moment, Read Me / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com Episode Interview Transcript Teaser (first ~15s): I myself was the only one who was going to be able to make that change for myself. I think everybody has to take that step back and evaluate who they are, what they are destined to be, what calls them, what fulfils them, and it’s going to be different for everybody. Joseph: Hello, Pam. Welcome to Career Relaunch! It is great to have you on the show. Pam: Why thank you so much! It’s good to talk to you again. Joseph: I know you’re quite busy right now, so I appreciate you taking the time to speak with us. I just want to dive right in. First of all, I want to get a sense of what you have been focused on in your career and your life before we dive into your career history and some of the transitions you’ve been through. Pam: I’ve been at Rush University Medical Center for three and a half years now. I work in the Haematology Oncology unit. We handle all the blood cancer patients and all the stem cell transplant patients. Right now, I’m very focused on getting my oncology certified nursing certification which is a higher-level certification within the oncology area. I’m looking to see what might be next in the nursing area for me whether it’s taking up a notch of what I’m doing or going to outpatient. The great thing I’ve found about nursing is that there are so many opportunities and so many different things you can do with that education and background. The opportunities are endless. Joseph: I know you’ve spent a few years and it hasn’t been a tremendous amount of time—coming up on 4 years working in nursing. I’ve got to ask you, what impact, if any, has COVID had on your day-to-day work as a nurse in a haematology and oncology unit? Pam: Believe it or not, it’s had an impact in many ways for us. The number of patients we’ve had on the unit somewhat dipped during the height of COVID because I think many people were putting off care. The nurses in our unit often end up floating to those units that were accepting COVID patients. You also feel like you’re a part of a bigger mission to attack this pandemic, to help the people, and try to figure out what therapies would work the best. In the course of last year, as the pandemic ebbed and flowed, people can only stall their care for so long. Our census came back up and pretty much stayed up since. But education and communication with our patient population is specifically impacted because most of them have very compromised immune systems and are far more susceptible to catching things like COVID. The impact on them, if they were to get it, would be far more devastating. We had to learn an awful lot in of medication strategies above and beyond what we would normally counsel our patients on. Joseph: It probably goes without saying, on behalf of everybody out there listening including me, we definitely appreciate what you and all the other nurses and doctors and healthcare staff are doing out there during these really challenging times. I know you haven’t really been a haematology nurse, Pam. I do want to come back and talk about your day-to-day life as a nurse, but I was wondering if we could go back in time. This is a show about career change. I was wondering if we could go way back in history, and we could talk about what you were doing before nursing. Tell me about your time working in marketing and then we could move forward from there. Pam: When I got out of college—truthfully even going into college—I wasn’t sure exactly what I wanted to do. You’ve got your Venn diagram of what you’re good at and what you like to do, and you have these intersections that can encom many things. I think I initially went into marketing and advertising because my eldest sister did, and it seemed like an interesting thing to do. I got into marketing. I was working at ad agencies early on, for a good chunk of my career. Then I moved into digital marketing in the late 90’s when things were just starting out. I proceeded to specialize in that field for the rest of my career. I worked at United Airlines. Then, I worked at FTD. I had a number of different agencies and client-side marketing roles. But in the end, I ended up starting my own digital marketing company. It was called Charlotte’s Web Marketing. I did that for about 8 years. It was great. It was very fulfilling at the time. I ran a successful company. I had employees. Marketing’s an interesting beast. I would never want to disparage that occupation overall but for me, it felt like I was trying to sell people things that they didn’t necessarily need. Joseph: You mentioned United Airlines. What were some of the other things you were selling that you kind of felt like, “I’m not really finding this super fulfilling or gratifying. Pam: One of my major clients when I was working at the ad agency was a major movie studio. There’s nothing wrong with marketing movie studios to people and marketing the pictures that are coming out. A lot of them are packaged-goods companies, financial services, and credit cards. There’s a means to an end for all of it. I mean that’s how people find out about products, but it didn’t do anything for me. It just felt like I was pushing annoying advertising at people. Even as a consumer today, if I have videos or things that I’m looking at online and I get interrupted by advertising, I’m like, “Cut it out!” It felt very intrusive. Unfortunately, in the marketing arena, it’s all very subjective. You’re at the whims of your clients. A lot of them would just not take your counsel on what is the best way to integrate into a consumer’s media consumption versus just blasting them as hard and fast as you can. Joseph: It sounds like you had a bit of disenchantment about the work itself because you’re marketing products that you aren’t super excited to market to people. You’re feeling like, should I even be trying—to use your words—to push these products on to people. It also sounds like there is an element of you not completely having control over the output of that marketing in which like it seems you were bit at the mercy of your clients. At what point did you go from maybe being frustrated with these things to realizing that, “Hey, I’m not fulfilled.” How did you know that? Pam: It was a couple of things. One of which was the uncertainty that it all brought. One of my biggest clients was going through bankruptcy. I didn’t know the longevity of what that client relationship was going to look like. Were they even going to be in business? How is that going to impact my bottom line? I think the lack of control and the lack of certainty over my destiny is scary. It’s scary when you’re running your own business and finding out that you may not have perpetual income for the next year. It wouldn’t go unnoticed by most people who know me. I have a decently high-risk tolerance, but I also have to have a certain amount of control and certain gain. It was that combined with not feeling fulfilled by this. So, I sold off the remaining business I had after that big client was having its challenges and I “went to work for them.” But they were based in San Diego and remote working was just not ideal. I would travel a lot there regularly and meet these clients. I’d run up again this same damn thing. It was almost like Groundhog Day because you had little control over what they were doing, and how they were doing it. They would make just what seemed to be very subjective, not logical decision about how to manage their business, let alone the marketing. I think my head was ready to explode at that point. Joseph: Was that the tipping point? When you realized that something had to change? Can you take me back to that moment when you said, “Okay, I’m doing something else?” Pam: I was coming back from a business trip. I was on a plane, and I was messaging with my husband. I was kind of expressing my frustration because of how…you know, how things simmer from a long time and then you slowly turn up the heat and it starts to boil over on you. Then I said, “I don’t know if I can do this any longer. This is not me.” As we kind of talked it out and tried to work through if it was marketing, if it was this particular agency? What is this? At the end of the day what it said for me was I need to be doing something that’s important to me—that I’m feeling like I’m giving back. I’m contributing to society. My motto today is definitely: “Never say never. You can always make a change.” It’s so true. I started doing a lot of information gathering. At the end of the day, it entails more schooling, and leaving making a pay check. I always thought, maybe people thought I was a bit partially insane for doing that but not truly. It was just definitely scary. Joseph: How did you come up with the idea of getting into nursing? Pam: I’ve done a lot of volunteer work over the years. One is I volunteered with a home hospice. It was just the most awesome thing on the planet. What I discovered through all this is connecting with people and listening to people—not hearing them—and really caring for them at this crucial moment in their life was something that kind of drew me in. It was really an enlightening moment for me. When the hospice program got sold, I ended up going to the Lurie Children’s Hospital. I would visit quite a few of these paediatric ICU patients. I’d play games with them, distract them—just kind of help them through their stay from a non-medical standpoint. Volunteering obviously will not make you money and it felt like I wasn’t doing as much as I was capable of. I really wanted to challenge myself. With all of these volunteer roles that I was doing, it really started pointing me into that direction based on those experiences. Sometimes the universe talks to you in direct and indirect ways. It felt like it was pushing me along like a wave pushes to the ocean. I ended up talking to a lot of people in the medical field. I just started really digging into with this and thought, “Would this be something I would like to do?” I ended up taking a medical terminology class at the community college here just to see if I was in the right track. I really liked it. I proceeded to continue to take more of the pre-requisites that one would need. I opted for a master’s program in nursing because I already had a bachelor’s degree. I felt like that was a more calculated good move on my part. Joseph: And are you just doing this in the evenings and weekends or is this a full-time program? Pam: That was a full-time program which obviously made it more challenging because we had one source of income and two small children. They were four at the time when I started this process. They’re going to be twelve next month. Time flies. But you know what, they were going to be 12 years old and I was going to be 48 years old regardless of what I chose to do, so why not take that chance to be happier? Joseph: What was running through your head as you progressed through that program, which I’m assuming involved you being one of the older students in the program? What was the experience of going back to school like for you? Pam: You start to question yourself. Am I capable of this? Can I still learn? Because there’s that old adage that goes, “You can teach an old dog new tricks.” I don’t think that’s actually true. I just think that you learn in a different way. I would say a majority of women—there were a half a dozen men in the program in their 20s but there were actually a couple of women that were older than me. So many of them and I don’t know if this was an age thing or not, were very competitive. It somewhat felt like this cut-throat environment but that wasn’t me. The real nut of it that was just super fascinating for me was that when I was in college the first time around, it was so different. This time around, I was very focused. I knew what I wanted, and the learning was not something I had to do. It was something I wanted to do. It was going to be super important as I moved on and actually took on a job being a nurse. It’s almost like you’re sucking it in like a sponge versus feeling like you had to do things because you know that those are going to be important things that you are going to need and keep in your head when you start working in that occupation. This is a little more fluff, I’ll call it. In of marketing, it’s very subjective. There’s not as much concrete like it “should be done this way” or “this is best practice.” I think that’s the way my brain works. It’s a little more…not with all these gray areas everywhere but more evidence-based versus more fluid. Joseph: I would like to shift gears a little bit, Pam, and just talk about your time as a nurse. You graduate from your program. You enter your first nursing role. What was that like for you to go from marketing products to now being in a clinical setting, and taking care of patients. Can you put into words what that contrast was like for you? Pam: Oh my god, it was so different. I was used to being the boss. I was used to knowing my craft inside and out. People would look to me as the expert after 20+ years. It was a little scary. It was a little daunting. I didn’t know everything. I think part of why they wanted me is because of the life experience, the stability, or I don’t know. I discovered that I could lean on the things that I knew in of collaboration and relationships, but I really had to focus in on learning the tests, the skills, and not feeling overwhelmed. For the first 6 months to a year, it was like, “oh my God, can I do this?” I would look at these other nurses in the unit—some were older, some were younger than me—they were able to easily do the things that needed to get done but also do the education, the emotional , and all these other things. I was like, “oh my god, am I ever going to get to that point?” And I did. But at the beginning, it felt like I was drowning a little because I didn’t have the same handle on work than I did before I left my old world. Joseph: At the same time, did you feel like this was the right choice for you? If so, how did you know that? Pam: I couldn’t say for 6 months, and I knew that it was the case. It was not that I didn’t feel right but it was more of if I could actually do it. It’s such a steep learning curve for anyone. Let alone, for someone who had been doing something else for so long but you start to find your hands. You start to be able to build that agility and depth from a task perspective. You start to speed up how you’re able to do things. Things don’t take nearly long as they used to. You learn more about the diseases that these patients have on your unit. You spend enough time with the other nurses and the doctors, and you listen, pay attention and observe. All of a sudden, you feel like the stone that gathers moss. You almost feel like it’s starting to build up and build up and you hit a point where you feel comfortable. More of that sort of snowballed for me. That really cuts it in. Not only do I enjoy doing what I’m doing but I can do it and I’m good at it. I think this is one of my strengths. I know how to communicate with people. I know how to build rapport and trust. Add that and the medical knowledge and the skills, it kind of makes for a good package if you will. Joseph: I think we’ve all crossed paths with nurses at some point in our lives. I certainly have. Do you feel like there are misconceptions that either patients have consistently about nurses or even misconception you held about being a nurse that have been dispelled for you? Pam: I think a lot of people think of nurses as people who are taking your vital signs and cleaning up after you—for instance, if someone was incontinent—the very basic things. They don’t realize the extent to which we go to school and have to know so much about what’s going on. The focus is so much on the providers, and the doctors but at the end of the day, they don’t know it all. We’re the ones advocating for them and eventually they’d recognize that. They’ll be like, “Now I know who I need to get to where I need to be.” Don’t get me wrong, the doctors are very valuable. They know their stuff. They’ve gone to school far longer. I get that—especially when they’re not an internist and they’re within the doctor’s ideal in particular. They’re very specialized. They really know their stuff. I absolutely respect and value everything they bring to the table. But I think the patients expect that, but they don’t necessarily expect that the person who’s really going to be holding their hand through the process is their nurse. Joseph: Before we talk about some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way. I do have to ask you about your experience as a nurse, especially at this particular moment in time. We touched on this earlier but we’re recording this in spring of 2021, and I was reading a study by Incredible Health, which is a hiring platform for nurses. In one of their recent surveys, they conducted on the impact of COVID on over 60,000 nurses. They found that 80% of chief nursing officers reported an increase in permanent nurse turnover during the pandemic. One-third of nurses have experienced financial hardship in the past year. How was your experience as a nurse during the pandemic and how are you coping with that? Pam: I’ve actually read similar stories. The thing that is not surprising is the mass exodus out of the healthcare field and out of nursing. People felt so burned out and overwhelmed by it. I could appreciate that because you have enough people dying on you. You have people you can’t tell because you didn’t know enough or you didn’t have the capacity. We are very fortunate at my hospital. We never turned people away. Our facility was built for a pandemic. It was really built to handle something like that. We were able to turn over so many different units. This facility was really turned into—I’ll say—a war zone facility. Not only were we getting our normal patient population but smaller hospitals or hospitals that weren’t capable of handling these patients were transferring them to us. It wasn’t overwhelming because we were staffed for that. But I’m sure I could see why they would’ve been burned out. They were like, “I didn’t sign up for this.” Joseph: Did you feel like, “Gosh, this was my idea of what nursing is going to be for me and now, this is what it is.” Did you ever have any similar sort of feelings like “Hey, I didn’t sign up for this.” Pam: I didn’t, and I’ll tell you why. I felt like: “No, I didn’t sign on to be in a pandemic but nobody in this world did.” I feel like it was our job as healthcare providers to help people, regardless of the situation. It was almost empowering in a weird way, for me. I could see how people felt overwhelmed and burned out, but I was also new to this. When the pandemic really hit, I was two and a half years in. I was still kind of feeling that adrenaline of newness and really loving what I was doing. I wanted to know how I can help and how I can be part of this. My perspective was probably a lot different. I guess some people come to nursing as a job, some people come to it as a calling. Based on the timing and the revelation of what I should be doing in my life, I’m sure there are other places where I could be working for more money right now, but I really love what I do. I love my facility because they’re very focused on health equity—not equality but equity. They’re focused on really rai populations and helping populations that needed them the most. We’re on the west side of Chicago which is a less advantaged area, and we do so much as an institution to help people over there. There’s a lot of things related to gratitude and really wanting to do for others that drives me. At so many levels, I walk out of work most days saying: “That was really cool. I was able to make a difference in that person’s life.” Joseph: The last thing I want to talk about before we wrap up here is just the lessons you’ve learned along your career change journey. One of the things you mentioned to me when we first connected is that you and only you can make the change that you seek. No one else if going to do that for you or hand it to you on a silver platter. What did you mean by that? Pam: It would’ve been super easy for me to keep doing marketing. It was profitable. I could do it. I knew it well. From my perspective, the gutsiest move was to pick up and totally change because it was completely jarring to my confidence, and resiliency. But at the end of the day nobody was going to say, “Pam, you shouldn’t do this. Here’s what you should do. Here’s the plan. Here’s the blueprint.” I, myself, was the only one who is going to be able to make that change for myself. I think everybody has to take that step back and evaluate who they are, what they are destined to be, what calls them, and what fulfills them. And for everybody, that’s going to be different. I know quite a few career changers in my life and most of them would probably tell you that was best move they could’ve ever made, and they thank God they took the risk and persevered through the uncertainty to get to that place. I have definitely discovered that having more experience does not necessarily make you a better person or make you a better whatever—in my case, a nurse. Even the new guy can have the better idea in anything you’re doing in life. Specifically in the medical setting, it’s how you carry yourself. It’s how you communicate with people. It’s how you build those relationships. Should I have made the change sooner? I don’t know. But I am super glad I did. The other thing that’s interesting is that from an outsider’s point of view or even for me at the outset of this, you always think that the doctors are the experts at everything, but the reality is, that’s not necessarily the case. A different set of eyes and a different set of perspective on anything is a good thing. Just because you’re not the doctor doesn’t mean you can’t have the greatest impact. Joseph: For those people out there who are thinking about switching careers into nursing or making any change in their career, what’s something you wish you had known about career change that you now know having been through this transition? Pam: Do your leg work. When you start to figure out the different areas that you’re interested in, talk to people, and shadow people. You may not know what the next best thing is for you. So, you take that journey. Just because that first step you take doesn’t work out or doesn’t end up being the thing that you really want to do, it doesn’t mean that you’re not going to get there. It is a journey, and it is not a sprint. It’s definitely a marathon in so many ways. You’re not necessarily get to be happy overnight. You won’t get there on your first foray into something new. A lot of leg work upfront will get you to where you want to be faster and in the best place versus rushing into things. If I had rushed into non-profit marketing, I would never be where I am today. I went in thinking, I’m this older student like you were asking me about earlier. I was asking myself, “Can I really do this?” You know, these other girls are going to run circles around me. No, that was not the case. You feel like you’re good at what you do. You feel like you’re smart but sometimes you can even surprise yourself. ing that you’re not always the underdog and you may just be the next best thing to what you’re going to be doing next. Take the time to evaluate and know who you are—to know what you want to do next. You’ve got to be true to yourself. Joseph: Thank you so much for sharing that advice and for also telling us more about your transition into nursing, your experience as a nurse especially during this pandemic, and also some of the lessons you learned along the way. I also just want to thank you again for all the important work you’re doing as a nurse—to take care of others during these really challenging times. Best of luck with those certifications and please stay safe. Pam: I will. Thank you so much. It’s been a real pleasure.

What happens when the career you originally pursued is no longer working for you? In this episode of Career Relaunch, Youssef Salameh, shares his story of relaunching his career from running a family restaurant in NYC to becoming a realtor in Las Vegas. We’ll talk about the emotions of walking away from your career, the barriers that stop you from moving on, and the realities of leaping into a new industry. I decided to have Youssef on the show because his story is one that you might be relate to. Sometimes, we invest a lot into one path in our career, and even when we know we’re not completely happy, we keep hanging on. But as Youssef is going to describe, sometimes, when the writing’s on the wall, you just have to change course. During the Mental Fuel® segment, I also address a listener question about whether your next career move should be one that’s practical or aspirational. Key Career Insights Walking away from something you’ve built from scratch will inevitably involve a range of emotions including sadness, disappointment, anger, and fear. Even if you can see the writing on the wall about your need and desire to change careers, people tend to hold onto the careers they have to maintain the stability it offers them. Taking a mental break can actually be very productive and clarifying. Pride can often stand in the way of letting go of a career that is no longer working for you. Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel segment, I talked about the importance of getting very clear with yourself on what specific metrics you’ll use and hurdles you’ll need to cross that will trigger you to pursue something else in your career and define where you’ll draw that line. Will it be a certain number of days each week you truly enjoy your job vs. dread your job? Or accumulating a certain amount of savings so you can feel comfortable weathering a temporary hit to your income? Or will it be something more personal? For example, the number of days each week you can actually tuck your kids in at night? Or the amount of time you feel energized vs. depleted? Decide what’s important for you to have, and if you cross that line from your situation being acceptable to unacceptable, make your bold move, knowing that your transition may be an emotional one as Youssef described earlier, but certainly one worth making. About Youssef Salameh, realtor Youssef Salameh was born and raised in New York City. He and his mother, originally from Lebanon, built a successful restaurant brand there named Wafa’s. And for 11 years, the restaurant did really well, featured at the top of most major publications’ food lists. But eventually, they had to close down their restaurant, and in early 2020, Youssef, his wife, and daughters moved across the US to Las Vegas to launch Wafa’s there. But then, the pandemic hit, and Youssef dropped his plans to open a restaurant there and decided to instead pursue a completely different interest of his–real estate. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare, Tweet to let me and Youssef know! Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Subscribe: Be sure to subscribe to Career Relaunch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow Career Relaunch on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to Grammarly for ing Career Relaunch Built by linguists and language lovers, Grammarly’s writing app finds and corrects hundreds of complex writing errors — so you don’t have to. Career Relaunch listeners can Grammarly for free by going to GetGrammarly.com/relaunch. Episode Interview Transcript Teaser (first ~15s): I truly didn’t want to let go of it. It was all I know. We decided to sell it and just move on with our lives. It was probably the scariest moment of my life. It was more than a financial loss. It was a personal loss for me. Joseph: Youssef, thank you for ing me on Career Relaunch. It is great to have you on the show! Youssef: Thank you, Joseph. It’s great to be here. Joseph: Alright, so we have a lot to cover today. We’re going to cover your time working on the restaurant industry and then what you’re up to right now as a realtor. Could you just start us off by telling me a little bit about what you’ve been focused on in your career and your life? Youssef: Well, as of late, I’ve just been focused on the real estate industry as a whole and getting to know the ins and out of it. For me, the real estate industry is a people business. It’s a business that I’ve always been in whether it was cooking for people and now, finding people homes. I’m extremely grateful that I have time to spend with my wife and daughters now which I didn’t have much of before. Joseph: How may daughters do you have and how have things been going for them with everything going on with the pandemic? Youssef: I have 2 girls. One is going to be six next week, and one is going to be 10 in August. It’s been tough on them. They take it well on the surface but as a parent, I feel like it’s my job to notice the little things that are not the same anymore. I mean, don’t forget, they’re not really socializing. They might have maybe 2 or 3 friends on the neighbourhood over here that they get together with, but overall, I feel like children really need to be in a setting with multiple children on a daily basis. Joseph: Yeah, for sure. I think when we spoke before I mentioned I’ve also got a young daughter. She’s 3 and it runs through my head every day, this balance of trying to get her to socialize but also trying to make sure she’s staying safe and not socializing which is a really hard balance to strike. It’s an impossible situation. Youssef: It is. Joseph: Well, we are going to come back and we’re going to talk about your time as a realtor. I know that you recently moved to Las Vegas. We’re also going to talk about that transition. What I’d like to do is, first of all, go back in time and talk about your time—way back in the day—before you became a realtor, and you were working in the restaurant business. Would you mind just taking us back in time and telling us a little bit about your time in New York? Youssef: New York is my home. I was born and raised there. I’m a New Yorker living in Vegas now. I come from a family where it was the mother and her four kids, basically. My mother used to always cook these big, elaborate meals and invite friends and family over. Everybody would tell her, “Hey, why don’t you open a restaurant?” And she’d be like, “Nah.” Before we were in the restaurant business, my family was in the furniture business. All those big box stores came along and it got very competitive. So, one day my mom said, “How do you feel about opening a restaurant with me?” I said, “You know what? Let’s give it a shot.” So, we started in a—I call it the closet. We were cooking up shawarmas and felafels on an electric stove. That’s how small the place was. Joseph: We should probably mention a little bit about your background. You’re Lebanese and you mentioned to me before that your mother is originally from Lebanon. Can you tell me a little about her journey into opening up her first restaurant and what that was like for her as an immigrant in the United States? And this first location was based in Queens, right? Youssef: It was. You know, I was very proud of her because at that point, she had never done anything without my father. And then she just went up and decided instead of going to him, she came to her eldest son, which was me, and she was like, “How do you feel about this?” I said, “If you’re ready, I’m ready.” For her, it was amazing. I basically ran the place. I did learn to cook along the way, but I still cannot cook like her. I mean, she is…When she comes to visit me in Vegas, she’ll cook food for weeks and she’ll just put it in the freezer for me. She was here over the summer, and I just finished her last batch of meat pies a couple of days ago. It was amazing. Joseph: Can you just give me a glimpse of what it was like to start a restaurant. Because I’m just thinking, so many people out there, they start restaurants, but you never really understand what is involved with literally opening the doors on the first day. How did you guys find a place and how did you create the kitchen? What was involved with that? I’d imagine that was pretty complex process. Youssef: Well, that first little location wasn’t complex at all. It was literally done in under two weeks. We outgrew that place in under two years. We literally had people sitting on the outside on the sidewalk, on tables. They’d bring their own chairs just to make sure there’s room for them. It was nuts. And then, the city came to warn us, like, “Hey, you couldn’t do this.” So, we had to close up shop there, but we found a place just two blocks away which was a full-service restaurant. At this point, we thought we had some experience already, so we jumped in with both feet. Now, with this place, setting up the kitchen it’s very intricate. It’s very important to the flow of things. You have to set it up in a way that you start at A and you move in a certain direction to be B, C, D, E, F, and G. G is basically where you send the food out. Everything had to be laid out because you’re working on a system. You’re like a clock. In addition to that, you have to make sure your health codes are up to code. You have to make sure you’re fire department code’s up to code. There are so many moving parts and that’s the job that I took on. I had to worry about everything but the cooking. And obviously, when we were short staffed, I became the jack-of-all-trades. I would help my mother cook. I would wait tables. I will wash dishes if I have to. It just turns into a thing where if you want to be successful, you have to do anything. You’re not too good to do any job. Joseph: So, you’re working with your mother on this restaurant. I can tell it’s already quite an intensive process to be running a restaurant. Your restaurant’s called Wafa’s, right? Youssef: Yes. Joseph: You have a location in Queens and eventually, you opened up another one in Brooklyn. Can you give just a snapshot of what a typical day is like for you. I’m especially curious about this, Youssef, because I’m also thinking about just waking up in the morning and this is kind of unique because you’re not working with a random set of people. You’re actually working with your family. What was that like for you? Can you just take me through a typical day? Youssef: A typical day for me is waking up at 7AM, having breakfast, coffee, seeing my family for—maybe—an hour and then rushing out the door. My first stop would be restaurant depot because I refused to—well we refused, as a team, my mother and I—to use any purveyors because we like to pick our own meat and produce ourselves. So that would be my first stop. From there, once I’m finished there, I would go to the restaurant and start setting up for the day. That was basically pre-opening. There’s a lot of prep that goes into your day before you even open the doors. There’s produce prep, meat prep, and kitchen prep. There’re all the extra little bottles you have to fill up and pita that you have to have ready. No, it wasn’t easy with my family because at one point, my brothers wanted to be involved in this. I mean we’re family, you want to get involved? Sure, come on in. But trust me, it was probably the hardest thing ever but at the same time, the most amazing thing ever is to be able to work with my mother and my two brothers in one business. Joseph: What in particular makes that especially challenging? I can kind of speculate, I’m trying to just imagine if I was working with my own family on a business. I can imagine the complications involved with that but what was the most difficult part of working with somebody who’s part of your family? Youssef: Being in your family, you’re obviously very familiar with each other. You think that you can just say, “This is going to be the way it’s going to be and that’s it.” Well, obviously, no one’s taking that answer. There was a lot of back and forth. There was a lot of behind-the-scenes animosity at times but the best thing about working with family is that you do know each other so well. When it’s crunch time it’s like a fine tune machine when we were all there together. You just move perfectly, flow perfectly. All the customers are happy. Sometimes we didn’t even know our dining room was full and we had people outside. The tables aren’t turning over fast enough. Obviously, there was a lot of arguments, but it happens with families around the holidays too. So, we had holidays all the time. Joseph: 24/7, right? You mentioned flow, Youssef. Things were flowing for you guys. You got Wafa’s in your original location, Queens. You opened up another one in Brooklyn. Sounds like things are going really well. I know when we spoke before you even got some great press coverage. What ended up happening over time for you and the restaurant industry? Youssef: We did get some amazing press coverage. We had The New York Times in there a couple of times. We were Michelin recommended four years in a row. We had New York magazine multiple times. ABC News came in and did an actual piece on us called “Neighbourhood Eats”. We were very successful. It was great because we did it together. We did it as a family. But over time, what I noticed was happening was, my life turned into the restaurant and vice versa. The restaurant was my life. I was a young man and I have a family and I’m unable to be with my family because the rigor of this job is just so demanding. It started getting very hard as I started getting older. I don’t even see them at night. They’re already asleep because I get home at 10 or 11 at night. In the morning, like I said I’ll see them for half an hour and off they go to school. I started wanting something a little different, but the restaurant business was very familiar to me and I was very successful in the restaurant business. I was always scared to move away from it because of my finances, to be honest with you. Joseph: It sounds like things are going pretty well for you then in 2012, Hurricane Sandy hit which I know had major impact on the New York City area. What impact did that end up having on Wafa’s? Youssef: The salt water had gotten into the train tunnels. What happened is that New York City never addresses anything when it happens. They wait 5 or 6 years. At this point we just had the Brooklyn location. They decided that they were going to fix the subway tunnels and the electrical components because of the salt water situation. And of course, we were in Brooklyn, we were in front of the L-train, our shop was 150 feet from the train and that was the reason we picked that location because of the train and all the commuters that lived in the area. But with the train closing, there was a mass exodus out of this particular area in Brooklyn. All the working professionals left. At this point, I was pumping personal money to keep it afloat because after you’re so successful for so long, you can only be down for so long—or so I thought. I truly didn’t want to let go of it. It was all I know. I was doing it for 11 years, at that point. We decided to sell it and just move on with our lives. It was probably the scariest moment of my life, when I handed those keys over on October 31st, 2019. It was more than a financial loss; it was a personal loss for me. We started Wafa’s from a little place—where four people could not sit in—into this brand where we were known all over the city. Where it would be like, “Have you been to Wafa’s?” “Oh yeah, I love that place!” We grew from nothing to something, and we did it all organically. By hard work, perseverance, and word of mouth. Joseph: It must have been really tough. So, you turned in those keys and you’re leaving this restaurant that you built from nothing to something pretty huge, what was that moment like for you as you were walking away from the restaurant? Can you just take us back to that moment when you realized that this thing was over? Youssef: It was monumentally sad, disappointed, obviously very angry. I was scared because at that point, I was the breadwinner in the house. My wife had just finished her masters, so she was just getting her career going. So of course, fiscal fear of not being able to provide for my children. There was just so many different emptions going through me. Thank God, for the women I have around me. They made me just realize that this is just a setback and I’d been so good at what I did for so long that there’s no reason for me to not be good at it again or at something else. Joseph: At the end of 2019, you sold Wafa’s. I’m imagining, okay, everything you’ve known is now gone. What did you do next? Youssef: I took a trip to Vegas with my wife and daughters. Joseph: And your wife has family there, right? Youssef: She does. Her aunts are here and her cousins. It’s been hard for me to get away with them. So, she was like “How do you feel about going to Vegas before Christmas?” And I said, “Sure, let’s go.” So we came. We stayed with her aunt. I rented a car and, I don’t know. I was driving around one morning, and it just seemed so peaceful to me. You know, I didn’t say it to her right there and then but when we got back to New York…We’ve been thinking about leaving New York but I never left because of the restaurant, obviously. So, you know, I tell them, “You know, I didn’t tell you this, but I could probably live in Vegas.” She said, “Really?” And I was like, “Yeah.” She said, “You want to try?” What happened was, basically we were just hanging out watching re-runs of the Sopranos one night, and we decided to move to Vegas. That’s what happened. Joseph: And then you get there early March 2020—when you were way over to Vegas. What did you have in mind that you were going to do in Vegas professionally? Youssef: My wife got here in February. I got here March 3rd. My plans were either a brick-and-mortar restaurant, Wafa’s Vegas, or a food truck. Food was still in the picture for me but not even 10 days later, the world shut down. And you see what’s going on with these restaurants. Anything to do with hospitality was breaking down—literally. And I felt horrible. I felt horrible for these people because I felt like these people were my kinfolk almost. I just couldn’t believe how bad it was for them, to be honest with you. That was also the moment that I realized that I can’t do this anymore. Somebody bigger than me doesn’t want me to work like that anymore or work in that industry. So, I took a step back and I had to re-evaluate my course. Joseph: This is interesting, Youssef. Because it sounds like it felt like the time to move on and at the same time, this is all you knew for many years—the restaurant industry. How did you pick up the pieces? Sounds like you had a realization that this restaurant path is definitely not going to work; at least not right now. How did you then regroup and decide what to do next? Youssef: I just took a couple of steps back because I didn’t even know what to do. I was confused. I was back to where I was when I handed in the keys to the restaurant in 2019, basically. My plans were shattered. I really didn’t think much of COVID in the beginning, to be honest with you. I thought it was going to be that initial two-week lockdown and then we’d be back to life. But lo and behold, that wasn’t the case. What I did was take a mental break. I had no interest in talking about work, career, or a restaurant, or anything. I had zero interest in talking about it. What I did was, for 2 solid months, I just ate. I ate and just watched movies—a lot of movies. It was a very confusing time for me. It was like, you know, this is what I know. This is what I’m good at. This is what I’ve been doing for x amount of years. Now, there’s a big monkey wrench thrown in it. Then it just dawned on me. I did mention to you, previously, that I was interest in real estate back in 2010. And I took a real estate course in New York, and I ed the test but of course I went back to old faithful. I stayed in the restaurant business because as long as I put in the work it was guaranteed for me. Joseph: At what point did you feel like, “Okay, this could actually be something I want to pursue more seriously.” Youssef: It wasn’t like a solid plan for me. It was like, “Okay, I’ll give this a try.” It wasn’t like, I was going to do it all with all my heart and my focus. I’m used to providing. I’m used to going out, doing A, B, C and D, and bring home whatever I’m able to provide with. And now, I’m put in a situation where—or so I thought—that I’ve got to chase people to get things done. Boy, was I wrong. Joseph: In late 2020, I get that you weren’t fully committed to this. You weren’t 100% sold on the idea of going into real estate but you go ahead, and you train to become a real estate sales person. Can you walk me through some of the steps you too to make this more formalized in your life? Youssef: You have to for 90 hours, I believe it is, of real estate courses. I ed but I refused to do it online. What happened was I had to wait until October 2020 to actually walk into a classroom due to COVID. When the classes opened, I went in and started the course. I met some great people and then the wheel started turning. After talking to people in the industry, seeing what they do, and seeing their success, and seeing that this is just putting in the leg work. If you put in the leg work, this is what you can get. It’s mostly a people business. I started to get that fire in me again. I took the courses seriously and I studied. I even went to the extreme. Nevada was still locked down and I couldn’t imagine finishing my course in November and having to wait until January or February to take the test. I said, “I’m going to drive to Utah. I’m going to get this thing out of the way.” I’ve got the knowledge, and I know I can do it. So, I drove to Utah. I took the test and ed it. I came back and started interviewing brokerages. Joseph: And now, you’re at Scofield Realty. I guess you’ve only been in this for a few weeks. What has it been like for you to make this transition into becoming a realtor? Youssef: I signed in with Scofield on December 14th. Even though I’ve only been legally licensed for about 3 weeks now. Kerby, the owner and the broker of Scofield, doesn’t want you to waste time. So, as soon as I signed on, I jumped into the bootcamp there. The bootcamp was basically for new realtors to be more familiar with the transactions, the paperwork and the process and everything. So, I jumped right into the bootcamp. I got a great mentor, Mikey. He’s a great guy. I’m in this thing to learn from the ground up. And I know I’m going to make mistakes along the way but you know what, that’s life. People make mistakes and that’s how they learn. And they get no after no after no. That what makes it so much better when you get that yes. Joseph: What are you most excited about right now, Youssef, as you look ahead to your career here as a realtor? What are you also most concerned about? Youssef: I’m definitely excited about this new career change. This is something that I never saw coming. I didn’t see myself being excited about being involved in another career, especially at 40 years old. I was just like, “What am I going to do?” I’m just excited to keep meeting new people that I can help with this monumental decision that they’re making in their lives. It’s just such a great feeling to walk people through this process. My main concerns are things that I wouldn’t be able to control—things that just come out of left field. Those are the things I try not to worry about, to be honest with you. As far as my career is concerned, I’m really not concerned because I know my work ethic. When I love doing something, I do it with 110% every day, all day. It’s funny because if you would ask me that question if I was in the restaurant business, I would have rattled off like 10 or 20 different concerns. Maybe I’m just too early in this career to really know the pitfalls off it but, if I wake up every day and I just do my best and keep doing the right thing, I really shouldn’t be too worried. Joseph: The last thing I want to talk about, before we wrap up, Youssef, is this topic of going into a field that you previously knew very little about and is quite a radical departure from what you were doing before. Can you put into words what the predominant emotional hurdle was that you had to get over in order to move on from your time at Wafa’s? Youssef: Pride—definitely. I was very proud of what I did—what we did, not just me. My mother and I, my brothers when they were there. I also had a sister. I was very proud of her when she showed up and she helped when she saw how busy we were. For me, it was a different type of pride. I was like, “I own one of the best Lebanese restaurants in all New York City.” It was that type of pride. I guess that’s why it was so hard to let go of it. That’s what was the best thing about this journey for me. I learned how to humble myself. I’ve learned a lot along my journey. I’m just glad I landed on my feet. Joseph: What do you think is one of the biggest lessons that you’ve learned along the way during your career change journey? Youssef: I felt like even though it was 11 and a half years for me over there, it felt like 20 years because of how much work had to be accomplished on a daily basis. It only took me opening my eyes and looking at it to realize that there’s a much easier way to live and work. As far as changing careers, it’s very scary but, it can be done. I really hope that people that are on the fence about it—even if I just convince one person to give a shot to something else, they’ve had their eye on, I feel like this chat of ours would be extremely successful. It’s scary and it’s hard. It’s so many different emotions that go through a person from finances to fear, to pride, to sadness, to anger, to resentment. There’s so much going on when changing a career because that’s just the way it is. I guess I got too comfortable. We get too comfortable doing the same thing in and out. Jospeh: Speaking of changing careers, can you tell me a little bit more about what Scofield Realty has been doing to grow their team? I understand that they offer a special program to people who are interested in learning more about real estate. Youssef: Scofield Realty is own by Kerby Scofield and his wife. He’s giving scholarships out to people who have lost their jobs due to the pandemic. He’s giving them a scholarship to basically, go to real estate school, start their training and then he’ll have a position waiting for that individual at his brokerage. I really respect that. Honestly, I’m really proud to be a part of that team. Joseph: That’s great to hear. It sounds like a great program and a very generous offer to those who have been either laid off during the pandemic or making a career change during this time. Youssef: Absolutely. Joseph: Thank you, Youssef, for telling us more about your former life as a restaurant owner, your transition, and what you had to do to move on to something new. Best of luck with your new career as a realtor and also with your new life there in Las Vegas. Youssef: Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

One of the hardest hit industries during the Covid-19 pandemic has been the airline industry. With global travel drastically reduced, many in the airline industry have had to make some tough choices about their careers. In this episode of Career Relaunch, flight attendant turned coder Christine Snow shares her story of stepping away from her 7-year career as a flight attendant to pursue other interests. We discuss how you can tell whether now is the right time to make a change in your career and also talk through some common hurdles, both emotional and practical, that stand in the way of starting something new. Afterwards, I address a listener question about the other parts of your life you may want to reevaluate when you’re rethinking your career. Key Career Insights Whether maintaining the current trajectory of your career makes sense. When a job isn’t fun anymore, your entire view of the industry can change. A crisis can force you to make the changes you’ve desired for so long One of the biggest hurdles in leaving your career behind is fearing that your current role is as “good as it gets” and you may ultimate just end up returning When you’re doing a job that brings you so much fulfillment, it enables you to feel like you are where you should be in your life. If you know deep down that your current job isn’t quite right for you, not knowing where you want to take your career instead can often leave you feeling stuck. Resources Mentioned Learn more about Zip Code Wilmington, the software development bootcamp Christine graduated from. I mentioned James Clear’s book Atomic Habits, a book I’m reading right now, which is really reshaping how I think about habit formation. Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel segment, I talked about the importance of taking steps to create the path you want for your career and life. If you’re reevaluating what’s next for you in your career, think about the exact type of person you want to be. Take stock of how you’re spending your days, what actions you’re taking, where you’re directing your energy, and the people you are or are NOT prioritising. Then, ask yourself whether you’re behaving in a way that’s consistent with the person you want to be. If you’re not, find a way to change how you’re running things in your life or how you’re reacting to things in your life. Maybe it’s a habit or a work pattern you’ve fallen into that you know deep down isn’t sending you in the right direction or serving what’s really important to you in your life. Take the initiative to do something about it. Make that change. Do it now . . .before you become the kind of person you don’t ire when you look yourself in the mirror. Even if it’s small change, making that change is the first step toward becoming the kinda person you wanna be and the kinda person you can feel proud of. About Christine Snow, flight attendant turned coder Christine Snow spent 7 years as a flight attendant, but her career trajectory completely changed when the pandemic hit in early 2020. While she was at home on a 6 month leave from flying last summer, she started learning how to code, and it hooked her interest and creativity. She eventually applied for and was accepted into Zip Code, a competitive 12 week software development bootcamp in Wilmington, Delaware. Having graduated right before we recorded our conversation, she had just begun her job search and interview process with nothing guaranteed, but she told me that learning this new skill has given her the confidence and hope to start a brand new career for herself in the tech industry, and that she couldn’t be more excited. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare, Tweet to let me and Christine know! Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Subscribe: Be sure to subscribe to Career Relaunch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow Career Relaunch on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to Audible for ing Career Relaunch Thanks to Audible for ing this episode of Career Relaunch. Audible is the premier provider of digital audiobooks, offering over 180,000 audiobook titles for listening anytime and anywhere on your favorite device. Career Relaunch listeners can a free audiobook and get 30-day trial at audibletrial.com/careerrelaunch. Episode Interview Transcript Teaser (first ~15s): The pandemic forced my hand a little bit. It made me look at my career and say, ‘Look, you’ve desired something different for a while, but you haven’t done it. You haven’t had the push to do it yet, and here’s your push.’ Joseph: Hello, Christine. Thank you so much for ing me today on Career Relaunch. You are actually the very first guest I’ve had on the show in a while, since the pandemic hit last year. I really appreciate your time today. Christine: Thanks for having me. Joseph: Can you start by giving me a glimpse into what you have been focused on recently in your career and your life? Christine: I spent about the last eight years as a flight attendant in the US. Clearly, I was in the industry that was very heavily affected when the pandemic really hit last spring. I think in the US was when we first really noticed it in March. I spent most of the next six months at home in my apartment just rethinking my whole career and what this meant for the rest of my life. Did I want to try and stay in this career, if I was even able to industry-wise? During that time, I discovered this deep interest in tech and coding. You are catching me after I just completed this three-month coding bootcamp in Wilmington, Delaware, to become a Java developer. Joseph: Congratulations, first of all, on that. I know that things have actually evolved quite a bit since we’ve first connected last month. I want to get into your current situation in more detail when we get to the latter part of our conversation today. I know you mentioned that you haven’t always been a coder, and I would like to start by going back in time and want to talk about your time as a flight attendant. This is something that you did for seven years at the start of your career, and I’d love for you to just start by telling us how you got into that industry. Christine: I was in college in Atlanta, Georgia. I was graduating with my bachelor’s degree in English with a focus in Victorian-era poetry actually at the time. I was only 21. I didn’t know what I wanted to do at all. I’ve never been one of those people who is clear on what I wanted for the rest of my life. I thought at the time I really love analyzing poetry and any kind of literature, so may I’ll just go on and get my master’s in that. At the time, a friend of a friend, who was a flight attendant heard that I was graduating, and she told me, ‘Christine, you know, my company’s hiring. I could refer you.’ At the time, I was like, ‘Sure, why not? I might as well if they will hire me. I might as well put off more college for a degree I’m not even sure that I want to go have fun.’ That’s actually how I first got into it. Luckily, I was hired at the time, and I spent the next seven years flying. Joseph: Can you tell me a little bit about which carrier you worked for and what the nature of your role was? What exactly did you do on a day-to-day basis? Christine: I worked for Delta Airlines. When I was first hired, I was sent to the New York City base, and I spent most of the next seven years as a New York City base flight attendant. It was quite a big change in my life. Anyone who goes into the airline industry gets a big change schedule-wise. You are constantly traveling, especially when you’re new. You’re working a lot of back-to-back trips, so you’re not home very much. If you are excited to travel and meet new people, and you don’t need to be home every single night, it is the perfect job. It definitely was that for me for a while. Joseph: I guess all of us have cross paths if you’ve ever flown with a flight attendant, and that’s going to be your primary point of on a flight. It’s one of those vocations I’ve always found to be very fascinating. I’d love to hear a little bit about the good, bad, and ugly about being a flight attendant to kind of demystify the industry a bit. This is a question I’ve always wanted to ask a flight attendant but just never had the opportunity to do that. First of all, can you explain a little bit about what it takes to become a flight attendant? What’s involved with training? Christine: In the US, when you get hired to work for a major carrier, like Delta, they put you through about seven weeks of training, wherever their base headquarters are. This involves emergency training, mechanical emergency training on different aircraft types, and training you how to evacuate a plane in under a certain amount of time, all the different doors for all the different types of aircraft in the fleet. You have to be certified on those and how you would operate them both normally and in an emergency. You undergo a lot of training as well for medical emergencies. As everyone knows, anything can happen at any time. The only difference in flight is you’re stranded up there, so there’s definitely medical emergency training. As well, customer service training and how to deescalate situations and how to handle cultural situations that maybe you weren’t prepared for before you ed the industry. Joseph: I know that you mentioned deescalating situations. I know that’s been a really big role that has emerged from flight attendants just in recent months with the pandemic and face masks and all that. I won’t get into that, but I’m curious about the social side of it. You mentioned interaction with people who are flying and engers. One of the things I’ve always wondered about, Christine, and this is probably more on longer-haul flights, is that flight attendants spend a lot of the time with one another, with fellow flight attendants. Maybe this is just my perception, but I’ve always just been curious, what do you guys talk about when you’re in the back of the plane, and you’re between serving meals? I just feel like you guys are flying together, you’re traveling together, you’re going into the same hotels. What is that side of the world of flight attendant life like? That’s an element that you may not get as much of in other, I’ll call, more 9:00-to-5:00, traditional office jobs. Christine: You’re right. Definitely we spend a lot of time together, even just in flight talking. Some of that’s talking with engers who may come to the back just to hang out for a while, but a lot of talking with just crew. There’s actually a term that flight attendants use to describe what happens called jump-seat therapy, where you may have never flown with this other flight attendant before, but you guys are seated on jump seats right next to each other for however many days. Joseph: Right, I see that. I can kind of tell sometimes if people quite don’t know one another so well. Christine: It is a lot of meeting new people, not just meeting new engers, but at least at my company, it was constant meeting new co-workers and knowing there’s a possibility that I may never fly with this person again. It’s a very unique work environment, I found, just in that alone, because you might make these great connections with other crew and not see them again. It can also be helpful because if you did not bond particularly with the crew member, you might also not see them again. It’s very interesting. You’re right. Joseph: I have just a couple more questions I do want to talk about what happened in March 2020 because I’m really interested to hear about your transitions. Before we get to that, any major misconceptions you feel people have about being a flight attendant? I guess we’ll first talk about other people’s perceptions and then maybe some of your perceptions in a moment. Christine: A lot of my friends and people I’ve phoned with feel that flight attendants are seen as just the waitress or the waiter in the sky, and they feel that engers forget sometimes that we’re there for their safety a bit. We’re there for both. We want everyone to have a good flight, but our job is more than just bringing you your Coke for example. We’re trained to make sure people make it through the flight, that if anything goes wrong, we can handle it. I think a lot of flight attendants wish that people consider that a more well-rounded picture of what a flight attendant does. Joseph: I guess there is that huge element of safety that people sometimes overlook and take for granted, but it’s such a big part of the job. Are there any things that surprised you the most about being a flight attendant, either pleasant surprises but also any sort of unexpected challenges in the job? Christine: Pretty much all of your training is what to do when the worst happens or what to do if someone gets ill. Then you get on the line, and you’re flying, and pretty much all of your job turns into customer service. You’re surprised every once in a while, when something really does go wrong, and you instantly have to respond. I I was pretty new at the time, maybe only a year or two in, and a woman in front of me, in front of the whole plane actually—I was standing nearby thankfully—she just started choking on her sandwich. It became apparent very quickly that she was not able to get it out of her mouth, and she stood up, and she came over to me, and I was heading over to her anyway, and I started doing the Heimlich maneuver. I was just in shock the whole time that ‘I was actually doing this.’ It’s pretty crazy how quickly everything can change. She was fine. She was totally fine. The sandwich came out. Everything went back to normal, but right after that particular moment, another enger came up from another part of the plane. As soon as this woman was breathing again, he came up to me and he started complaining that his bag wasn’t directly above his seat in the overhead bin. I just ed standing there, like, ‘What?’ Joseph: Oh god. Christine: It’s just a world of contradictions, I think. I don’t know. Joseph: Absolutely, yeah. engers can sometimes be the most unpleasant people, I would imagine. I can ask you probably about 50 other questions about this, Christine, but I know the show is about transition, so I do want to talk now and shift gears and talk about your transition out of the world of being a flight attendant. We got to talk about March 2020. That’s when, as you mentioned, the pandemic started to hit in the US, just at its infancy. I know it might be hard to go back a year, but can you take me back to the moment in March 2020 where you started to notice something happening on flights? Christine: I don’t think I’ll ever forget it. It was, I think, probably like March 15th. It was right in the middle of the month, and I was working a three-day trip. At the beginning of the trip, all of our flights were still full, overbooked, oversold. Starting on about the second or third day of the trip, flights were just empty. These large planes, we would have maybe eight engers, and that was just completely unheard of. It was quite a shock from that perspective, just seeing who was showing up and that people weren’t coming. Also, it was just kind of getting alarmed knowing that we didn’t really have the protective gear we needed yet, and we still have to work seven more flights before we made it home. It was being a little nervous to close the overhead bins, ‘What am I going to pick up if I close this one?’ or, ‘I don’t want to rearrange that bag because what if something is there?’ We didn’t have any of the gloves yet, no masks. It was like realizing that the whole world was changing in front of your eyes within a week, I think. Joseph: What was running through your head when that happened? Were you thinking, ‘Okay, this is a temporary thing’? What did you think was going to happen and what started to transpire in your head as it relates to your own career as a flight attendant? Christine: I know a lot of people at the time were expecting it to be over in a month or two. To me, at the time, I already felt like something had changed for me. Something with the whole job had changed. It was a big shift for me, walking through the plane and not feeling safe from germs that I couldn’t see. It really took the fun out of the meeting all the different engers and getting to have all these interesting conversations with different people. It wasn’t fun anymore. I didn’t want to leave the house to do that anymore. It really affected my view of the whole industry. Around that time, the company that I was at, Delta, offered leaves that people could just sign up for to take. Since there’s also reduced flying, it would help the rest of the company out, and I signed up for it right away. I took a six-month leave. I that whole time being at home just wondering, ‘I don’t think that this will go back to normal the way it used to be for me.’ I knew I would never feel the same way that I did about it before, but I also didn’t know any industry would go back. Joseph: Was it around that time that you, then, started to think about coding? How did that emerge? I’m just curious because it’s quite the pivot to start thinking about coding after being a flight attendant. Christine: I actually read an article when I was at home on my leave. It was something silly. I don’t know where I saw it, but it was about how young people, when they’re at home during this time, should be learning Java. At the time, I did not even know what Java was, but it reminded me of a little course I had taken a couple of years ago that it was really not much of anything. I had taken a small, little course on HTML in the past. This reminded me of that, so I thought, ‘You know what? I really need something to do while I’m sitting here at home. Why not? Why not just brush up on that?’ I started reviewing HTML and learning CSS. CSS is like a lot of styling webpages. That was really fun for me because I’m a creative person, and I love seeing the different things I could do with a webpage. I’ve realized, as I was studying those, that those weren’t really cool unless you had some kind of language that could make those do something. I started learning JavaScript just to make my webpages work, make them interesting. Joseph: You’re just learning this on your own, in your own time? Christine: Yes. Joseph: Okay. Christine: Yes. I had nothing but time. Joseph: Right, that’s true, but you’re literally just teaching it to yourself through books and references online? Christine: Yes. There are actually a lot of really great, free references for anyone who wants to dip their toes in. There’s a lot online if you just searched for it, even just for free. That’s really all I was doing at the time. Joseph: How did you find that transition for you? Going from flight attendant and traveling all over the place to then being at home, 24/7, and on top of that, learning a completely new skillset. What was that like for you? Christine: At the time, a lot of my friends were also at home, a lot of my flight attendant friends. They were having a terrible time. They all wanted to be flying. They missed going to Paris or whatever, and I didn’t. I knew at that moment, ‘Oh gosh, I don’t fit the same way that I used to with this career. Something has changed irrevocably in me.’ I knew that I was enjoying coding, and I knew that the more I learned with that, it seemed that the more I found to learn and the more excited I was about digging into it. I thought it only makes sense. I know that I feel different about this career than I used to, and I’m really excited by this new one, and I know that tech is a growing field right now, and I just thought, ‘Why don’t I put all my energies behind this? Because I’m never going to find a better time. If doesn’t work out, I’ll go back to flying whenever they’re ready to have us all back. If this does work out, I don’t need to go back, and I can leave my position to people who want it more than I do.’ Joseph: You mentioned something interesting there. You said that it felt different. You felt different from how you felt when you were a flight attendant. I know this might be tough, but can you describe in words how it was different? The reason why I ask, Christine, is sometimes, it’s hard to decipher and clarify whether something is better for you or not. I’d be curious what you noticed about yourself doing one versus the other. Christine: When I first started as a flight attendant, I was so excited. I was never bored, even if all I did was fly between Atlanta and Minneapolis or something like that. I was having the best time, and I was meeting these interesting people, and nothing was boring. For me, during this past summer of 2021, I was at home. The thought of going back to flying was boring. It no longer held that interest for me. I felt like, in going back to that, I was only going to be exposing myself to risks that didn’t give me the satisfaction that I used to have from it. For me, I’m motivated by what I feel ionate about. What I feel ionate about are different things that I’m learning, different things that have grabbed my attention during the time. Coding and tech, I’m using coding, I guess, as a blanket term. Coding had really ignited that interest in me. It just seemed like a field that I could explore and not get tired of exploring. It seemed like on top of having so much to learn in a really exciting way with it, it seemed very creative, which I had never anticipated before I had started trying to learn to code. Joseph: At what point did you feel like this could become something bigger, like an entirely new chapter in your career? It’s one thing to be learning a new skill on the side, and it’s another to, then, start to feel like, ‘Hey, this could actually be a new career path for me.’ Can you when that moment happened for you? Christine: Yes. My husband actually was still working at the time, and I think he was telling his friends at work, ‘Oh, yeah. Christine’s been learning HTML, CSS, JavaScript. She’s just learning to code while she’s at home.’ They were like, ‘Have you heard about Zip Code Wilmington, this school in Wilmington that helps teach people how to become software developers? It has a really good reputation for helping them network and getting them jobs afterwards.’ We had never heard of this. My husband came home and told me about it, and I realized in that moment, as I was looking it up, that this was a real thing and that it was a really achievable thing within reach. If I could get into the school, there is a serious chance that I could have a career as a software developer for a financial institution in Delaware. Just knowing that there was a route, knowing that this had been done, that the people who went to this school came from all different backgrounds, like me—it was a very, very diverse background pool that this school pulls from—just knowing that that path was there made me realize, ‘Oh, this is a possibility.’ Joseph: I know you’ve now finished at Zip Code. We’re fast-forwarding to the current day. That, as I understand, from when you talked with me before, it’s a 12-week course, right? You graduate, and the idea is that it can be an on-ramp to some potential professional roles in the future. Do I have that right? Christine: Yes, perfect. Joseph: I know that things have actually transpired for you. Before we get to where you’re at, at this specific moment—I know things have changed even since we last spoke a couple of weeks ago—I’d love to talk about a couple of the lessons that you’ve learned along the way of your career change journey. When we spoke last time, I think you’ve alluded to this today, Christine. You said that a lot of colleagues told you that being a flight attendant was, I think you mentioned, the best job you’ll ever have. Christine: Yes, exactly. Joseph: But you actually realized deep down that that wasn’t true for you. This is a common dynamic that comes up with really any job when you start to share your sentiments or doubts with your immediate colleagues. I found that in many of those situations, people, whether they’re your immediate colleagues or friends or family, tend to err on the side of reminding you how lucky you are to have what you have, for you just to be happy with what you’ve got. There’s this tension between wondering if the job you have is as good as it gets and something you should just be content with, or if there’s actually some more fulfilling option out there for you to pursue, knowing that it may be more rewarding, but maybe it’s not going to be more rewarding. I’m curious, how did you cut through the noise and make sense of whether your former job as a flight attendant was or was not as good as it gets? Christine: I’m glad you brought this up, because for so many years, I was there for seven and a half years. I did not cut through that noise. I’m the kind of person who really likes to take people’s advice. I guess that’s been to my detriment in some cases, but I wouldn’t change anything in my life, but I know if I had been more confident listening to myself and what I knew deep inside, that this job, my career as a flight attendant was not going to keep my happy forever, I knew that much earlier on. I knew that probably on year two or year three flying, and I stayed for seven years. You hear constantly—constantly—that this is the best job you’ll ever have. I was afraid that there is a possibility they would be right. They would talk about people who left, and all they wanted to do was apparently come back and be a flight attendant again. I was afraid that would be me. You have to face down your fear, but I did not feel that I could do that before this past summer because I didn’t know what direction I wanted to go in. The pandemic forced my hand a little bit. It made me look at my career and say, ‘You’ve desired something different for a while, but you haven’t done it. You haven’t had the push to do it yet, and here’s your push. You’re right in the middle of this pandemic. You’re on a six-month leave. This is your chance. Take it.’ I’m really grateful that I was able to do that during the pandemic, and I’m sure there’s a lot of other people out there who were less than satisfied in their careers beforehand. Maybe this is actually a perfect opportunity for people to be exploring what they’re more interested in. I just feel so lucky that it has all worked out for me so far. Joseph: When we spoke before, you also mentioned something interesting to me that you said, you know in your heart whether something fills you up. Can you explain what you mean by that? Christine: The joy of doing what you’re doing. When you’re doing a job that makes you feel fulfilled, that just brings you so much contentment, you know that you’re fully where you want to be in your life, and I had lost that feeling for a while with flying. Learning to code was kind of like rediscovering that joy again. It’s so hard to explain. Joseph: Yes, it’s one of those tough things. I think it’s what your heart knows, but you can’t really rationalize with your head. It’s just like a feeling, I guess, that you get. Last question before we wrap up with what you’re doing right now, having been through this career change journey—and I know you’re still in the middle of it—as you now look ahead to the next chapter of your career, what are you the most nervous about and what are you the most excited about? Christine: I’m nervous about keeping up. Tech seems to constantly be changing and growing in different ways, and it seems like the companies who come out on top or the people who come out doing well are the ones who are good at pivoting and growing their skills in a certain area maybe, knowing where to learn. That worries me, I guess, a little bit, but that’s also partially what excites me. Just because I know that there’s going to be so much variety still in what I’m doing, continuing in tech, I’ll constantly have the ability to learn different technologies, different things that I can do, and grow in that way. It’s both the fear and the excitement because you’re always a little nervous, ‘Hey, am I an impostor in this situation? Am I going to be able to keep my head above the water? What if the job that I get is too advanced? How am I going to keep up?’ but you just got to keep reminding yourself, ‘You made it this far. You’ve learned so much already. You just got to believe it’s going to keep carrying you through.’ Joseph: On that note, I would like to wrap up with what you’re doing now. I know you just got some news. Could you tell me a little bit more about what’s next for you? Christine: Since we last talked, Zip Code hosted this power interview week at the end of the cohort for all the students who graduated. They helped to set up interviews with their hiring partners, which are financial institutions in the area, and their students. Luckily, I was offered a job actually by one of those institutions. Right now, I’m just going through g all the paperwork, and I should be starting at that new company on March 1st. Joseph: Wow, congratulations, Christine! That’s fantastic news. I know when we last spoke, I think you hadn’t quite even graduated at Zip Code. Now, fast-forward to today, you got a job offer on hand. That’s great news. That’s fantastic. Christine: I’m just so grateful really. I can’t believe it. I feel like my whole life has changed. Joseph: Absolutely. I just wanted to thank you so much for telling us more about your former life as a flight attendant and the steps you took proactively to pivot into coding and also the importance of listening to yourself and paying attention to what truly excites you. I think you’re absolutely right about the fact that this is a really good time to reevaluate what truly matters, and you’ve certainly reminded us of that. Best of luck with your role, and congratulations again on finishing up at Zip Code. Please stay safe. Christine: Thank you so much, Joseph. You too.

I’ve heard from so many of you recently who have suffered a career setback in the midst of the global Covid-19 pandemic. So today, I wanted to feature someone whose career has also been hit hard by events. Commercial airline pilot turned heavy goods vehicle truck driver Aaron Levanthal shares his story of dealing with personal loss, managing career upheaval, and finding a way to pivot toward something else. During the Mental Fuel segment, I also share some examples of setbacks I’ve been dealt in my own career along with my three strategies of dealing with setbacks. If you’ve been dealt a blow in your own career for whatever reason, I hope you find this episode reassuring, inspiring, and most of all, a reminder that you’re not alone. Key Career Insights When you’re managing loss, all you can do is look ahead to the future and find a way to bounce back. Having a plan B in place is a good idea even if you feel like you’ve “made it” or achieved your dream. Setbacks are a normal part of any career. Your ability to manage them is a muscle you can develop and strengthen over time. Related Resources Read Aaron’s LinkedIn post that describes how he shifted from flying airplanes for FlyBe to driving trucks for Tesco. Access job search resources to help you navigate the challenging hiring environment during the Covid-19 pandemic Unexpectedly laid off? These 6 Steps Will Get You Back on Your Feet, my Fast Company article, May 2020 Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel segment, I talked about the importance of finding a way to manage the setbacks you’ll inevitably face in your own career. My challenge to you, if you’ve had a major career setback recently, either because of the pandemic or something completely unrelated to the pandemic, is to first, give yourself some time to process it. Allow yourself to just feel bad for a few days or even a few weeks is an important part of dealing with any sort of loss. However, I also want you to decide when you’re going to then start taking action. To literally circle a date in your calendar when you’re going to at least try to move forward. Not to figure everything out, but to at least start taking some small steps to begin exploring where you can go from here. Restarting is often the hardest part, but I really do believe that ultimately, action will open up new opportunities for you. About Aaron Levanthal Aaron Levanthal‘s lifelong ambition was to become a pilot. Based in the UK, from the age of 6, all that he and his Twin brother would ever talk about was Airplanes and how they wanted to fly when they grew up. At the age 13, Aaron ed Air Cadets, the real beginning to his flying bug. He then ed the British Army in 2004 as a craftsman in the Royal Electrical Mechanical Engineers and eventually became a civilian “Heavy Goods Vehicle” tanker driver to help fund his flight training expenses In 2018, Aaron finished training and started working for Flybe as a First Officer,  only to be made redundant A year later in March 2020 when the pandemic hit. He now works for Tesco, driving trucks to deliver household essentials to supermarkets during these challenging times. He hopes to return to the world of Aviation in the coming years. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare, Tweet to let me and Aaron know! Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Subscribe: Be sure to subscribe to Career Relaunch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow Career Relaunch on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to BrandYourself for ing Career Relaunch A2 Hosting allows you to offers simple tools and services to help control what people find when they Google you. To clean up, protect, and improve how you look online, visit BrandYourself.com and use promo code ‘RELAUNCH’ to get 50% off a hip.

I’ve heard from so many of you recently who have suffered a career setback in the midst of the global Covid-19 pandemic. So today, I wanted to feature someone whose career has also been hit hard by events. Commercial airline pilot turned heavy goods vehicle truck driver Aaron Leventhal shares his story of dealing with personal loss, managing career upheaval, and finding a way to pivot toward something else. Aaron Leventhal- former FlyBe pilot turned Tesco truck driver During the Mental Fuel segment, I also share some examples of setbacks I’ve been dealt in my own career along with my three strategies of dealing with setbacks. If you’ve been dealt a blow in your own career for whatever reason, I hope you find this episode reassuring, inspiring, and most of all, a reminder that you’re not alone. Key Career Insights When you’re managing loss, all you can do is look ahead to the future and find a way to bounce back. Having a plan B in place is a good idea even if you feel like you’ve “made it” or achieved your dream. Setbacks are a normal part of any career. Your ability to manage them is a muscle you can develop and strengthen over time. Related Resources Read Aaron’s LinkedIn post that describes how he shifted from flying airplanes for FlyBe to driving trucks for Tesco. Access job search resources to help you navigate the challenging hiring environment during the Covid-19 pandemic Unexpectedly laid off? These 6 Steps Will Get You Back on Your Feet, my Fast Company article, May 2020 Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel segment, I talked about the importance of finding a way to manage the setbacks you’ll inevitably face in your own career. My challenge to you, if you’ve had a major career setback recently, either because of the pandemic or something completely unrelated to the pandemic, is to first, give yourself some time to process it. Allow yourself to just feel bad for a few days or even a few weeks is an important part of dealing with any sort of loss. However, I also want you to decide when you’re going to then start taking action. To literally circle a date in your calendar when you’re going to at least try to move forward. Not to figure everything out, but to at least start taking some small steps to begin exploring where you can go from here. Restarting is often the hardest part, but I really do believe that ultimately, action will open up new opportunities for you. About Aaron Leventhal Aaron Leventhal‘s lifelong ambition was to become a pilot. Based in the UK, from the age of 6, all that he and his Twin brother would ever talk about was Airplanes and how they wanted to fly when they grew up. At the age 13, Aaron ed Air Cadets, the real beginning to his flying bug. He then ed the British Army in 2004 as a craftsman in the Royal Electrical Mechanical Engineers and eventually became a civilian “Heavy Goods Vehicle” tanker driver to help fund his flight training expenses In 2018, Aaron finished training and started working for Flybe as a First Officer,  only to be made redundant A year later in March 2020 when the pandemic hit. He now works for Tesco, driving trucks to deliver household essentials to supermarkets during these challenging times. He hopes to return to the world of Aviation in the coming years. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare, Tweet to let me and Aaron know! Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Subscribe: Be sure to subscribe to Career Relaunch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow Career Relaunch on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to BrandYourself for ing Career Relaunch A2 Hosting allows you to offers simple tools and services to help control what people find when they Google you. To clean up, protect, and improve how you look online, visit BrandYourself.com and use promo code ‘RELAUNCH’ to get 50% off a hip. Episode Interview Transcript Teaser (first ~15s): I’ve lost my job, and with COVID hitting now, there’s no recruiting so I can’t get a job. I have an empty feeling really. I just feel like I’ve worked so hard to get to where I was, and now, I’m back to square one again. I’ve lost my flying dream. I’ve lost something I’ve loved. Joseph: Good morning, Aaron, and welcome to the show. Thanks so much for taking the time to speak with me in the middle of your very busy schedule. Aaron: Good morning. Thank you for accepting me on your show. Joseph: I want to talk to you about a few different things today, Aaron. I want to go all the way back to your childhood and talk to you about how you became interested in becoming a pilot. I know you spent some time in the British army. You’re also driving a tanker driver for a while. I do want to start by just getting a glimpse into what have you been up to the past few days and what have you been focused on in both your career and your life amid everything going on with the coronavirus. Aaron: In the last few days, I’ve been working as a Tesco driver. It’s in a supermarket in the UK. It’s a heavy-goods vehicle. I’m doing this during night shifts at the moment, which is quite a strain on my sleep pattern and having a child. There’s maybe two or three stores delivering foods to keep the country up and running, really keeping their shelves stocked up for the British nation. Joseph: Thank you for doing that. For those listening from outside the UK, Tesco is the UK’s largest grocery supermarket chain by market share. They’ve got nearly 4,000 stores in the UK. I order my groceries from Tesco, so I also want to extend a personal thank you to you for what you’re doing. Can you tell me about your daughter? How old is she and what is she up to these days, now that the schools are closed? Aaron: Yes, it’s been quite difficult to try and entertain her as time’s going on, and they’re getting bored. The schools have been really good. They’ve been handing us out homework to do via an online app, keeping up informed as to what’s happening next. Her name is Val. She’s coming up to seven years old in July. We’re just getting really frustrated with the situation. It’s quite difficult with work and looking after your child. We haven’t gotten anyone to care for her, and so obviously it’s just myself and my partner. It’s been difficult. Joseph: We’re recording this in early May as context. The UK has now been in lockdown for several weeks. You mentioned that you’re work in the night shift. I actually have a very good friend of mine who used to work the night shift at an airport in Philadelphia. I know it can be really mind-dizzying at times. What’s it been like for you to be working the night shift? Aaron: It’s just been a bit of a shift from what I was doing before. You start roughly at about 6:30 in the evening, and it’s usually finished in 6:30 the following morning, which is a full-on night shift working straight through. It’s difficult, but I know that I’m doing it for the good, and that’s what’s keeping me going throughout the night. Joseph: We don’t always do this on the show, but I actually want to go all the way back in time to your childhood, when you were I believe six, and you first became interested in flying. I’d love it if you could just kick us off by telling me a little bit about your childhood and how you became interested in flying, and then we’ll move forward from there. Aaron: Like you said, Joseph, it started at the age of six. Me and my twin brother, we’d go flying motor airplanes and build motor airplanes. Our stepdad would take us to the airshows, and that was kind of where it really kicked off for me. It wasn’t until I got to the age of 13 and 9 months where I could finally go and my local Air Training Corps, which is those Air Cadets. I was there in fact five years. That was really where the thought of flying really kicked in for me. Joseph: At that moment when you were 13 and you were part of Air Cadets, were you thinking at that moment, ‘Hey, this is what I want to do. This is what I want to do when I grow up. I want to be a pilot.’ Is that what was running through your head? Aaron: Yeah, I already knew that before I came to Air Cadets, but being in Air Cadets confirmed that exactly what I want to do. As soon as our first flight, at 13 and 9 months, that was it. That’s where you get the flying bug. It never left. By the age of 15, I did my very first solo flight. Joseph: At that point, for somebody who would be interested in becoming a pilot, what would then be the typical path and what did you end up doing? Aaron: There are different routes you can take, but if you’re young enough like 15, 13, and 19 years old, you can go and your local Air Cadets. I recommend that. It’s free flying, and it really tests if you really want that career before you go spending your big bucks. For me, after Air Cadets, I started to work through what was called the modular route. There’s an integrated route or a modular route. The integrated route is where you can do it in a very short period, have to have a big lump sum of money, maybe £120,000 upfront. The way I did it was what worked best for me, and that was to work and pay for it – pay as you go really, just bits and pieces here and there. You go and get your PPL first, which is your private pilot’s license. You must amass 45 hours. Once you succeed at that, you can then make a decision whether you want to go on to the airlines or if you want to keep it as a general aviation pilot where you can just go out and take your family and fly around in little scenic airplanes. If you’d like to go and be an airline pilot, this is where you got to start building your hours up, and it gets expensive, so you’re looking at like 100 hours pilot in command, total hours of 150. Then you got to go and do some exams, which is about 14 exams for your airline transport license. It took me roughly about 18 months because I was working full-time. Joseph: What were you doing at the time? Aaron: I was working as a tanker driver, so I was doing roughly 12 to 14-hour days with an hour commute on each end of that as well. It was very good work-time management to get through something like that. You don’t get much time to study at home, but I used to take my study manuals with me and stick post-it notes all over my Lorry just so I can revise all the time. Once you finish those exams, that’s when the fun starts really. You start flying. You can go and get your commercial pilot’s license. That’s another course, which is about 45 hours, and then it gets even more expensive, where you’re going on to twin-engine aircrafts, and we’re flying multiengine air things in the UK. I was paying £600 an hour. You go on to see and go into simulators, and then you’re ready to go and apply for your first job. It still doesn’t end there. Joseph: Vey in-depth, very elongated, and quite an investment of time, money, and effort. Aaron: Exactly. I mean that’s the way I chose to do it because it works better for me because I was working. But if you’ve got the money upfront, it can take two, three years. Joseph: I’d imagine a lot of people don’t have that kind of cash upfront as a teenager, and I know that you also spent some time in the British army. What were you doing in the army, and how were you balancing that with being a heavy-goods vehicle tanker driver? Aaron: Two thousand and four to two thousand and six, I was employed as a Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineer. I was actually a vehicle mechanic at that time. It was at the British Army where I gained my qualification to drive HGVs dangerous goods. I didn’t need to use that when I left the British army, I was in a civil job to earn the money to fly. In the British Army, it was an amazing experience. I’d recommend it to anybody to go in into the British Army or in any army. It really builds on the foundations of your career. You’ve got your core values. You’ve got to demonstrate courage, discipline, integrity, and selfless commitment. You gain responsibility, independence, and build up on your teamwork. It sets you up for life, and I’m really glad I went in there and did that. Joseph: Yeah, it sounds like an amazing experience. At the same time, I know when we spoke before, you mentioned that, at some point, you realized that it was leading you away from what you truly wanted to do, which was to become a pilot. I’m curious to hear how you ended up coming to that realization. Aaron: I went into the British Army hoping that I’ll transfer over to go in the Air Corps. It was a way of trying to get into flying, but it became apparent that that wasn’t going to happen for a long period, so I made the decision to leave the British Army and do it my own way. I wanted to fly, and that’s my vision. It always has been, so I went to get back on my path and all of it, all of the dream. Joseph: You’re an HGV tanker driver, and you’re doing that to build up your savings to pay toward flight training. Can you just give a glimpse in a typical day in your life as a heavy-goods vehicle driver when you’re driving these huge petrol tankers down the road? What’s that like and what does a day look like for you? Aaron: I live about an hour and 10 minutes away from the depot where I drive the artic lorry. It’s a good hour and 10 to get there, and then my day starts. I was on a night shift, so I usually arrive at about past 6:00 in the evening. We go in, we check in, we sit around and wait until the job comes up, which could be a good hour before you go out. Once we go out, we go and find our unit, which is the front part of the artic, and then you go and connect it up to your trailer, which is already loaded for you. It’s a very straightforward job. You go over the weighbridge, and off you go to your first supermarket. When you get there, the tricky bit comes into play when you got to start reversing these articulate lines. Once a day, you deliver the food, you offload it yourself and the assistants of the front door staff there, and I went and sign paperwork, return back to depot, and off you go again. This is why I choose a job like this, just so I could keep the capacity to train as a pilot. Joseph: I guess something I’ve always wondered—even as a child, I being in the car and seeing these huge trucks go by, and there’s normally typically a male driving in the front by himself—does it ever get lonely driving those trucks? How do you keep yourself occupied on the road? Aaron: Initially, no, but as the years went on, it does. Especially with petrol tankers because there are restrictions. You’re not allowed to have any sort of electronic devices or a personal electronic devices, PEDs in the cab with you, because with the fumes of the fuel, especially petrol, it can be very disastrous. The rules are no phones allowed, so we can’t even call anybody. The trips that we were doing with petrol tankers is the aviation side I was doing, so it’s a different jet, E1, which is airplane fuel to the airport. The runs are quite short, so you never really got lonely. It was a good time for me to bring my revision notes with me. That was the only way I could do it, because when I get home, I’m just going to be absolutely exhausted, or my daughter would be around me. It’s actually quite a nice escape to go work and start revising. Joseph: I know when we spoke before, you mentioned 2009 being a major turning point for you. I feel like we have to touch on this because it’s such a big part of your story. What was happening in your life at the time? Aaron: This is about a year now into where I finally started my modular training towards my airline pilot license. On the 19th of April, 2009, unfortunately, I had a big setback. My twin brother ed way suddenly. This was absolutely devastating to me and my family. Joseph: How old was he at the time? Aaron: We were 25 years old. It was lifechanging. I just see the world differently after that really. You realize that life is short, and I was more willing to take the risks, especially like getting big loans and credit cards, which I was a bit apprehensive about. Once that happened, I just thought, ‘You know what? You got to be more adventurous in this life because we’re not around for long.’ That’s really opened up my eyes. Joseph: If you’re willing to share, what happened with your brother? Aaron: It happened leading up to his death. It was about three years. Unfortunately, he fell into depression, and it took maybe three or four attempts of him, attempting suicide. Every time he’d do it, he would ring me – nobody else. He’d just ring me to ask. I don’t know what exactly what he’s saying, but it was like he wants your approval or something or a cry for help. Every time before he attempted suicide, he would call me first. Maybe it’s for me to go – I always stopped it, and then the last time, he didn’t. He just literally got on with it, and he hanged himself. Joseph: I’m so sorry to hear that. I’m just trying to imagine this is your twin brother, and you guys grew up together and had dreams of becoming a pilot. What ran through your head when you heard that news in that very moment that your brother had committed suicide? Is there any way to put that into words? Aaron: I when they broke it to me. My world just fell apart at that time. Numbness. The world stops. I just broke down. There are not many words to describe what happened at that particular moment other than just shock, disbelief. Even though the years leading up to it, I kind of knew that something was wrong, and I thought I had my mind set to sort of be ready for that moment, but no. I wasn’t, not at all. Joseph: What do you think has been the toughest part of losing him? Aaron: Not being able to share my experience, our experience of flying. We talked about it all those years before he died. I never even managed to get him in the aircraft – not once, not even fly beside me. When I fly sometimes, I just look over to the left seat, and I was just wishing he would be sitting there. I never had the opportunity to take him flying. Joseph: I sometimes find that certain events become dividers in our lives where you are a certain person before an event, and you’re a very different person after that event. I’m imagining that this must have been one of those events for you. What has changed for you pre and post losing your brother? Aaron: Before losing my brother, I wasn’t willing to take as many risks as I have. Maybe I wouldn’t have gone this far through my training. I’ll never know, but after he ed away, I took the risks. I got the loans. I got the debts. I had to go with it. That’s something I probably wouldn’t have done maybe before. Just being resilient, grabbing my personal control, rebuilding myself after the event, and then getting back into my flight training as soon as possible. I mean the show must go on. Stay focused. That’s how I got through it. I’m a very driven person. That’s how I’ve got this far. Joseph: Thanks so much for sharing that, Aaron. I’d like to shift gears a little bit here and now talk about your time as a pilot. I know eventually, I think it was around 2018, 2019, when you actually were moving toward this dream and achieving this dream of becoming a pilot. Can you share what that chapter of your career was shaping up to look like? Aaron: I was accepted to an airline called Flybe in the UK. It was a regional airline, regional connectivity. I was there for 13 months. Unfortunately, the airline collapsed on the 5th of March this year, which is 2020. Joseph: I do want to talk about that and what’s happened when you were made redundant. Before we do that though, I would like to talk a little bit about your time as a pilot, because I know that this is a dream that you had, and you achieved it. What was it like the first time you climbed into the cockpit and took your first flight where you’re carrying engers from one place to another? Aaron: The first experience is overwhelming. I just couldn’t believe what I was doing. It was actually happening. I’m flying a big jet. It also thrusts, going on the runway. You rotate and off you go into the sunset. You do flight take off and landings, and then that’s it. You’re ready to go with your engers in. You go into line training. You’re still training with engers on as a first officer. The captain’s the experienced guide. To have my first engers, absolutely amazing experience. To start talking to your engers as well and inform them of how we’re getting on the premises of the flight is so unreal. Some of the routes we were flying but especially down to Milan, where there were the mountains or snow, it’s just absolutely scenic, really, really beautiful experience. Joseph: I’ve flown with Flybe before because, as I mentioned to you before, I used to live in South Hampton. In the South Hampton Airport, Flybe used to be one of the carriers there. As a enger, I guess the only time I really see a pilot is either in the terminal when you guys are walking by us in the gate area or maybe I’ll see the back of your head as we’re boarding or if you go to the bathroom or something. If I’m lucky, I’ll get a chance to say thank you to you as we’re deplaning. Can you just give a quick behind-the-scenes glimpse into what’s really going on up there in the cockpit while all the engers are just sitting back in the cabin, chilling out and relaxing? Aaron: Flybe has quite short sectors we’re doing. We’re doing maybe four sectors, and they’re quite busy days. After your long-haul flights where you might have up to 16-hours flights, the workload can be a lot less than what we were doing. It was very a diverse and dynamic environment that we live in, especially in the cockpit. I’ll give you an example. Once we get airborne, we’re going for our chats, all the way up to the cruise. When we’re in the cruise, the captain and the first officer, we both got our different roles. One of us will be pilot flying, and one of us will be pilot monitoring. There’s always one pilot who’s flying the aircraft, and there’s always one pilot who’s monitoring the back pilot and systems. We take it in turns each sector, so one sector would be, say, from South Hampton to Milan. The second sector would be from Milan to South Hampton. So I may fly bound. The captain may fly back. As a first officer, if I was pilot monitoring, I used to go through system checks. We’re doing timing checks, fuel checks. There’s plenty of stuff that go on with it, especially in the short period of time. It’s a very fast-paced environment. If it was long-haul, it’s more relaxed, but I really enjoy that type of flying because it just kept you in the toes. You never get complacent. You start your cruise, and then you start your descent pretty much within five minutes. You’re in the cruise for five minutes. There’s lots of pressure, lots of challenges, but exciting. We’re communicating with the cabin, talking to our engers, also talking with our cabin crew, talking with air traffic control. That’s a very busy environment to be listening out on. You could be in a sensor or the other aircraft in the area. It’s very busy, multi-tasked, and multi-talented job. Joseph: Is there any misconceptions that you feel people have about being a pilot for an airline, either ones you’ve heard from other people or even once that you had yourself? Aaron: The biggest one is everybody thinks that the airplane basically flies itself. People say, ‘Oh, the autopilot takes off and land this aircraft.’ There are aircrafts that do do that, but the aircraft I was flying, we would have it in autopilot when we’re ed 1,000 feet above the ground, so it’s much smoother and more pleasant for the engers when the autopilot takes over. The takeoff and landing is fully onto us, the captain and myself. Joseph: That’s really interesting. I way back in the day. I don’t know if they still let you do this, but you could tune into a channel on your headset as a enger where you could listen to the air traffic control communicating with the pilot. I was always impressed by how much chatter there was. There really wasn’t a whole lot of silence, and there’s a lot going on behind the scenes up there. Aaron: Yes, especially around UK. The transatlantic flights, they’re the quiet ones because once you go over the ocean towards America, it’s a lot more quiet. You’re using different frequencies, HF frequencies. Around the UK, we’re on the VHF frequency. You listen to London controls, Scottish control, and you can hear everything going on. It’s a really, really busy environment. You got to stay engaged and listen to what other pilots are saying because it gives you good situation awareness. You’re also doing your own work and your own space in your cockpit in the flight deck. Like I said, multi-talented. You just end up getting used to listening in to all this chatter. Joseph: Got it. Aaron, you’re a pilot now for Flybe. You’re flying airplanes. You’re living your dream. Then you mentioned earlier that a couple of months ago, you’re made redundant from Flybe in early March 2020. What happened and what was it like to hear that news for you? Aaron: Well, as you can see from our discussion, it took a long time, 10 years, to get here. My whole life has been working towards this dream of flying, and on the 5th of March, when the airline collapsed, it felt like the rug was pulled out from beneath me. Initially, it was a shock. I went through all the emotions – worry and anxiety, ‘What am I going to do for money? How am I going to get back into flying?’ I was devastated. I stayed loyal to Flybe right until the end. There were signs of those problems with the airline. Some people would start a joke and go on over on to other airlines, but I thought, ‘No. I’m going to stay loyal to Flybe right until the end.’ Unfortunately, the risk didn’t pay off. I lost the job. I was made redundant, and that was it. A couple of backs, and I moved from Birmingham back to Cardiff. It’s kind of a triple whammy for me. I lost my job, and with COVID hitting now, there’s no recruiting, so I can’t get a job. On the other hand, I’ve also lost my license as well now. It’s expired, so I’m going to have to pay another £6,000 to go and renew my license when the simulators reopen and the training centers reopen. It’s been a triple whammy, and it’s just been one bad news after another. Like I said earlier on, I’m kind of a resilient person. I’m flexible to change. I’ve gotten back in the lorry. I’m getting back on with it, back on the road, keep the money coming in, helping the nation. I’m looking towards the future now of getting back into the flying career. Joseph: I’ve spoken to so many people, Aaron, just in the past few weeks, who have had what you described like some version of a triple whammy where everything is landing at once, and no good news is coming in. What was it like for you to move from being a pilot in an airplane cockpit to returning back to becoming a driver? I’m interested in hearing your views on that because I guess there’s a couple of aspects to this. There’s returning back to what you were doing before achieving the dream, and then there’s also finding a way to make ends meet at this really challenging time. I guess I’m just curious to hear more about what that process has been like for you. Aaron: I’ve kept a plan B as a back up plan, going back to the lorry just in case. I was always told, it’s always good to have an HGV license because there’s always work out there for you, and so I kept it valid. I kept my licenses valid just in case anything bad did happen. Unfortunately, it happened, but fortunately, I had my licenses to fall back on, and certainly I get help to get through this COVID-19. To go back to driving, obviously the pace of life has slowed right down. I was flying 100 miles an hour in a jet down to 50 miles on a roadway. I have an empty feeling really. I just feel like I’ve worked so hard to get to where I was, and now, I’m back to square one again. I’ve lost my flying dream temporarily. I’ve lost something I’ve loved. What’s happened here is, after the incident with my twin brother, this has prepared me mentally to go through this situation. Joseph: It sounds like you’ve, in some ways, built up this muscle of resilience, having dealt with some major set backs and just emotional loss in the past, which doesn’t make it any easier to go through, but I guess it just helps in some ways to manage the situation and maybe soften the impact of it. Aaron: I have to get back out there as soon as possible. We didn’t get furlough from the company, so I have to get out and start earning some money to get by. You can’t live off air. I’m feeling positive. I’ve got my licenses. I’ve got my hours. I’ve gone through all the training. I’m feeling positive that there is going to be light at the end of the tunnel. I just need to build a connection. Maybe through networking, this may lead to some possible opportunities like my LinkedIn post that I’ve put up that you’ve seen. Joseph: Yeah. Aaron: I was very fortunate with that. I thought to post up explaining I lost my job, and I’ve gone back to being a lovely driver. It went out to 2.8 million people, which is absolutely fantastic. Joseph: When you posted that—because that’s how I discovered you, Aaron—what did you think was going to happen when you posted that? For those people who haven’t seen it, it’s like a side-by-side of you in the cockpit and then you standing in front of a Tesco truck on LinkedIn and just explaining what had happened. What did you think was going to happen when you posted that? Aaron: I just put the post up there for my colleagues because we all ed a group, Flybe Ex-Employees. I thought I’d put that post up as a bit of inspiration to them, to all my colleagues, to give them a bit of uplifting message, just to maybe help them a little bit. When I woke up the following morning, and it was over a million views, I was in disbelief really. I just couldn’t believe what I was looking at. I underestimated the powers of social media. That post, I come home from work after my third night shift of starting this new job. I was lying in bed. I literally just typed up, put a picture on, and went to sleep. I never expected it to go like it did. I didn’t expect the media to be chasing me for it. It’s just absolutely overwhelming. Joseph: That’s a good segue, Aaron, in the last thing I was hoping to talk with you about before we wrap up. That’s just a few of the things that you’ve learned along the way of your very interesting career journey, both the ups and the down. I’m curious what you’ve learned about yourself, having shifted into the world of aviation and achieving your dream of becoming a pilot, only to then have that quickly taken away from you and you having to pivot out of that world. What have you learned about yourself through this process? Aaron: The way I’ve chosen to do my flight training was probably the most difficult way because I had to work a full-time job. Going through that experience, I’m really, really proud that I did that that way as well. I could see that I had that drive, prove I had that drive. Being able to handle workload management as well very well, to work all these hours and then to study around it, it’s just not an easy game. Joseph: How do you think this is all going to turn out for you, Aaron? I know it’s a bit of a guessing game. Nobody knows what’s going to happen to the airline industry, but any guesses of how you think it’s going to turn out and also how you hope this will turn out for you. Aaron: The airline industry is very tough, and it does come back. We haven’t been through something as big as this, but it is going to come back. It’s just a matter of time, patience, and keeping our vision focused, and I’ll be back as a first officer somewhere. Joseph: Thank you so much, Aaron, for taking the time today to tell us more about your life as a pilot and sharing some glimpses into your very personal story and also your recent shift back to being an HGV driver for Tesco. As I mentioned before, as someone who orders our groceries from Tesco, I just want to personally thank you for everything you’re doing for the country right now. I also just want to wish you the very best of luck with one day hopefully returning to becoming a pilot again. Aaron: Thank you very much, Joseph, for giving me this opportunity to come and talk to you and hopefully inspire some people.

In addition to the enormous human toll the 2020 coronavirus pandemic has had throughout the world, the virus has also had a significant impact on people’s careers. Some have seen their jobs eliminated, work projects cancelled, roles furloughed, industries turned upside down, and businesses completely shut down. After thinking really carefully about who I wanted to feature in this episode of Career Relaunch, I decided that financial controller Liya Dashkina would be the perfect individual. Liya, who’s also a listener to Career Relaunch, decided a few months ago to resign from her job in London and move back to Australia to be with her partner while continuing to work remotely. Her three-month notice period was supposed to wrap up at the end of March, after which, she was planning to explore new career options in Australia. Then, the pandemic hit. The sudden uncertainty and upheaval she’s now facing in her career is similar to other stories I’ve heard from clients and listeners who have suddenly had their career plans upended. I hope you find this conversation helpful as you figure out how to bounce back from whatever setbacks you may be experiencing in your own career during this COVID-19 crisis. Key Career Insights During times of uncertainty, you can only focus on what you can control. Building relationships takes time. Sometimes, you need to go into it without counting on the fact anything will necessarily come out of it. To be truly successful, you have to be truly invested in what you’re doing. Try to figure out what drives you, what makes you tick, and what gets you out of bed in the morning rather than just “doing what you love.” Now that the world has stopped due to coronavirus, it actually enables an opportunity for you to get creative and reassess where you want to take your life & career. Tweetables to Share Not everything has to be a success in life. Sometimes, the experience is what really matters. Liya Dashkina Tweet This Related Resources Liya mentioned the Business of Fashion is hosting some online events you may be interested in checking out, especially during the coronavirus lockdown. If you are looking for some career resources to guide you during the COVID-19 pandemic, I’ve compiled useful articles on job hunting and virtual interviewing on my COVID-19 career resources page. Liya requested I share this poem excerpt, related to some of the things we discussed during our conversation. If you do follow your bliss you put yourself on a kind of track that has been there all the while, waiting for you, and the life that you ought to be living is the one you are living. When you can see that, you begin to meet people who are in the field of your bliss, and they open the doors to you. I say, follow your bliss and don’t be afraid, and doors will open where you didn’t know they were going to be. The adventure is its own reward — but it’s necessarily dangerous, having both negative and positive possibilities, all of them beyond control. -The Power of Myth- Joseph Campbell Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel segment, I talked about trying to find your optimal path to living with this pandemic. To decide on something in your career or life to let go of, at least for the time being. You can absolutely come back to it later, but I’d like you to consider loosening your grip on what you had expected to do, and focus instead on what you may have to do at this moment given the unprecedented times we’re in. And to try to embrace it . . . because maybe in the long run, we’ll all come out of this coronavirus pandemic having reinforced the aspects of our careers and lives that truly matter most. About Liya Dashkina Born in Russia, Liya Dashkina moved to Australia at the age of 15 where she completed her high school and university studies, qualifying as a chartered ant and a solicitor. In 2010, her job brought her to London, where she spent the last decade working mostly in the finance industry. In 2018, having always had a keen interest in the fashion industry, she made the decision to leave her career in banking to a fashion media start-up. At the beginning of 2020, she moved back to Australia to be with her partner, whilst continuing to work remotely during this transition. Be sure to follow Liya on LinkedIn and Instagram. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare, Tweet to let me and Liya know! Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Subscribe: Be sure to subscribe to Career Relaunch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow Career Relaunch on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks!

In addition to the enormous human toll the 2020 coronavirus pandemic has had throughout the world, the virus has also had a significant impact on people’s careers. Some have seen their jobs eliminated, work projects cancelled, roles furloughed, industries turned upside down, and businesses completely shut down. After thinking really carefully about who I wanted to feature in this episode of Career Relaunch, I decided that financial controller Liya Dashkina would be the perfect individual. Liya, who’s also a listener to Career Relaunch, decided a few months ago to resign from her job in London and move back to Australia to be with her partner while continuing to work remotely. Her three-month notice period was supposed to wrap up at the end of March, after which, she was planning to explore new career options in Australia. Then, the pandemic hit. The sudden uncertainty and upheaval she’s now facing in her career is similar to other stories I’ve heard from clients and listeners who have suddenly had their career plans upended. I hope you find this conversation helpful as you figure out how to bounce back from whatever setbacks you may be experiencing in your own career during this COVID-19 crisis. Key Career Insights During times of uncertainty, you can only focus on what you can control. Building relationships takes time. Sometimes, you need to go into it without counting on the fact anything will necessarily come out of it. To be truly successful, you have to be truly invested in what you’re doing. Try to figure out what drives you, what makes you tick, and what gets you out of bed in the morning rather than just “doing what you love.” Now that the world has stopped due to coronavirus, it actually enables an opportunity for you to get creative and reassess where you want to take your life & career. Tweetables to Share Not everything has to be a success in life. Sometimes, the experience is what really matters. Liya Dashkina Tweet This Related Resources Liya mentioned the Business of Fashion is hosting some online events you may be interested in checking out, especially during the coronavirus lockdown. If you are looking for some career resources to guide you during the COVID-19 pandemic, I’ve compiled useful articles on job hunting and virtual interviewing on my COVID-19 career resources page. Liya requested I share this poem excerpt, related to some of the things we discussed during our conversation. If you do follow your bliss you put yourself on a kind of track that has been there all the while, waiting for you, and the life that you ought to be living is the one you are living. When you can see that, you begin to meet people who are in the field of your bliss, and they open the doors to you. I say, follow your bliss and don’t be afraid, and doors will open where you didn’t know they were going to be. The adventure is its own reward — but it’s necessarily dangerous, having both negative and positive possibilities, all of them beyond control. -The Power of Myth- Joseph Campbell Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel segment, I talked about trying to find your optimal path to living with this pandemic. To decide on something in your career or life to let go of, at least for the time being. You can absolutely come back to it later, but I’d like you to consider loosening your grip on what you had expected to do, and focus instead on what you may have to do at this moment given the unprecedented times we’re in. And to try to embrace it . . . because maybe in the long run, we’ll all come out of this coronavirus pandemic having reinforced the aspects of our careers and lives that truly matter most. About Liya Dashkina Born in Russia, Liya Dashkina moved to Australia at the age of 15 where she completed her high school and university studies, qualifying as a chartered ant and a solicitor. In 2010, her job brought her to London, where she spent the last decade working mostly in the finance industry. In 2018, having always had a keen interest in the fashion industry, she made the decision to leave her career in banking to a fashion media start-up. At the beginning of 2020, she moved back to Australia to be with her partner, whilst continuing to work remotely during this transition. Be sure to follow Liya on LinkedIn and Instagram. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare, Tweet to let me and Liya know! Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Subscribe: Be sure to subscribe to Career Relaunch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow Career Relaunch on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Episode Interview Transcript Teaser (first ~15s): It is trying to figure out whether to ride it out and wait a couple of months and then get back to what the original plan was or altering your plans and altering your original idea where you saw yourself. Joseph: Good morning, Liya. I know it’s pretty early over there in Sydney, so I really appreciate you making the time to come on to the show. Liya: Good morning, Joseph. Joseph: I’d like to talk with you today about a few different things, including balancing practical career decisions with your true interests, making a big international move for personal reasons right when your life is flowing, and also what it takes to break into a new industry. First off, I got to say we’re recording this in early April 2020. This is actually the first episode I’ve recorded in a while after taking a break from the show. Right now, the main thing on everyone’s mind is this corona virus, which is very much still a global pandemic at this moment and seems to be just getting worse and worse by the day. I actually just heard a few minutes ago on the news that the global cases of corona virus have now ed one million and had more than doubled just over the past week alone. Here in the U.K., we’re on a national lockdown. This is clearly affecting every single person out there. I was wondering if you could start by painting a picture of your situation there in Sydney, Australia, and exactly what your life has been like the past couple of weeks. Liya: We are currently in a lockdown in Sydney and trying to adapt to this new reality and the new way of living. Sydney is not the worst place to be stuck in a lockdown. I think we’re a little bit behind the U.K. and the U.S. in of the timing of lockdowns and restrictions, which seem to be about a week behind the U.K. It has been an interesting time obviously, a very anxious time for many people, both from a personal perspective and professional perspective as well. It’s just very similar. Everyone seems to be on the same page, just taking it day by day and adapting as we go along. Joseph: I’m going to try to stick with the typical format I follow on this show. I do want to go back in time, just like I normally do, and talk about your historical career and your transitions, but before we get to that, I just want to stick to this topic of the corona virus for just another moment here. One reason why I wanted to have you on the show, Liya, is because I know you’ve recently moved back to Australia right before this outbreak happened. You had a certain vision of how things might shape up there. I know you’re not a healthcare worker—nor am I, nor are either of us on the frontlines of dealing with this pandemic in a way that healthcare workers or delivery drivers or many other people are—but what have you found to be the most challenging part of what’s going on at this very moment? Liya: I think outside of the obvious, personal things like being away from your family, which I’ve actually found very difficult, because my family are all in Russia still. Even though I have been living away from them for over 20 years now, it is at a time like this that I found it particularly difficult. I feel it very acutely. In of the work situation, there are two things. One is the uncertainty with respect to time. You don’t really know how long you are going to be in this situation, how long to plan for. It makes it very difficult. Secondly, trying to figure out when you are caught out in a stage of flux, especially in a transition period, it is trying to figure out whether to ride it out and a couple of months and then get back to what your original plan was or to retreat into safety or a more traditional secure job if it does come along, but that means altering your plans and altering your original idea where you saw yourself in the next 12 to 24 months. Joseph: Yeah, I totally hear you on all of those things you just mentioned. There’s so much in there that I want to unpack. I do want to come back to it, but the one that really struck me was what you mentioned at the very beginning about being far away from your family. I’m also far away from my mother and my sister. What I found most unsettling about this whole situation and what makes it I think different than being far away from your family in other instances is that you can’t actually go and see them if anything were to come up. If anything were to happen with our parents or people we care about, we can’t actually go and be there with them. I just found that to be a really unsettling feeling right now, in addition to all those things you mentioned about not really being able to plan for anything at this moment. Liya: I think that’s the general overarching thing I found about this whole corona virus crisis that the restriction of movement is just something we’re so not used to. We are very used to being in control of most parts of our lives, and this is completely outside of our control. Being told that you cannot go somewhere, being told that you may not see your family for 6 to 12 months at this point for me, it takes a little while to process and understand. I don’t know if I’ve actually fully reconciled it in my mind. Joseph: I would like to come back and talk about your current situation and the situation right now and how you’re handling it. Just a quick snapshot, what exactly are you doing in your career right now, before we go back in time and then go through your history? Liya: At the moment, I am still working for my London employer. I’m working remotely. It is a fashion media startup. I was meant to be transitioning, rolling off at that job, and trying to find my next opportunity here in Sydney longer term. That’s where I still am. Joseph: What a time to try to do that too. We’ll come back to that. Let’s go back in time now and talk about your time—this is going to be a little confusing, because you were in Australia before, then you moved to London, and then now you’re back in Australia. I’d like to go all the way back to the first time you were in Australia. I know you spent the first part of your life in Russia. What led you to initially move to Australia, before you came to London? Liya: When I moved, I was 15 years old. I come from a family where it’s a very traditional, rather conservative family in Russia. One of the big things in our family was always education. Both my mom and dad are very, very keen to give their children a better life than they had and give them better opportunities. When I was 15, they wanted to send me somewhere to study English. Australia seemed like a good idea. I was meant to be here for a year or two just to finish off my high school and then go back to Russia. Moving at such a formative age, it was so difficult for me. It was so challenging to adapt and to take on this new life that when I got to a place of comfort, I didn’t want to and uproot myself again. By that stage, I formed friendships and applied for university and decided to stay here for a while. I was here for 10 years before then moving to London. Joseph: You studied ing and law at university there, and then you went on to work in a Big Four ing firm, is that right? Liya: Yes, exactly. Joseph: How did you go from being in Australia, working in ing, to then ending up in London in 2010? Liya: Because of the combination of law and commerce that I studied, when I went into the ing firm, I was allocated into the tax division. I was working in expatriate taxation, which means that we were looking after people who were being sent to work in Australia and Australians who are being sent to work overseas. Through that, I got an opportunity to myself be an expat and experience what our clients go through and be sent to London for a year to work in our London office. It was something that was being offered on a continuous basis to people at my level, and I jumped at the opportunity, because at that stage, I had never been to London. Joseph: At some point, I know you came over here to London, which is where I’m based. This show is all about transition, so I’ve got to talk a little bit about your interest in fashion. At some point, you decided to pursue your interest in fashion. You mentioned when we spoke before that being in London fueled this. Could you just explain how did you get interested in fashion, and how did you attempt to get into fashion? Liya: When I moved to London, I was just so exhilarated by being in a big city, not really knowing anyone and having to make new connections. I looked at it as a positive and exciting opportunity. At the time, it was the rise of blogging and street style. Through the bloggers’ fair, I had connected with someone who’s a photographer and we became friend. I started hanging out in that environment and absolutely loved it. This is before blogging and street style became a multi-billion pound industry. I was hanging around there, and I started trying to think, ‘How can I be in this world? How can I transition into this world but still doing what I do and being who I am?’ Joseph: At that moment, was this something that you felt you would rather do instead of working in finance or ing? Was that becoming clear to you at this moment? Liya: Yes. I was trying to explore how I could do that and how I can go into that space. I was casting my net quite wide and looking at ing and finance but also how I could maybe go via the language route. I spoke Russian. I speak Russian fluently. That’s one of the things that I considered at the time. I found an internship with a fashion house in London. I was looking at sales to Russian client to the CIS region at the time. Joseph: I know when we spoke before, you mentioned that this initial attempt at transitioning into fashion didn’t actually end up working out. What exactly happened? Liya: I was young and naïve. To cut a long story short, I ran out of money. London is a very expensive place. I think when you read a lot of this stories and success stories and experiences, people never talk about money. I hadn’t planned properly. I thought I would be lucky, and I would find a job, not realizing that the industry is actually very, very difficult to get into but also very difficult to stay. The competition is very high. I loved my time working at this particular studio. I’ve made some great friends. I’ve got experience, but I could no longer afford to work in fashion. I basically realized that I had no choice, and I had to go back into a more stable job if I wanted to afford my rent and my lifestyle, well any lifestyle in London, really. Joseph: Now, I would be really interested to hear what that was like for you to let go of what you really enjoyed doing and return back to the corporate world. I’m just trying to imagine the dichotomy between those two worlds – the fashion industry, very forward thinking, and then more of the traditional corporate world. I think I recall you ended up going to Barclays at the time, which is quite an established traditional bank, at least from the outside looking in. Liya: There were two conflicting views. One is I obviously wanted to be closer to the creative world. One of the things that attracted me to fashion, in the first place, is that the people are so ionate and enthusiastic and creative. Going back into the corporate world, it was a bit of a shellshock. I obviously have the cultural element of my family views and how family viewed my whole foray into fashion. Joseph: How did they view that? Liya: Russian culture is very similar to a lot of eastern cultures in that way that a serious job is a lawyer, an engineer, an ant, or a doctor. Anything outside of that is not a safe and sound career. I think my parents were very worried about me in of, they called it, a hobby job. I think there was a lot of pressure and a lot of not wanting to disappoint your family, in that sense. I basically realized at that point that I didn’t really have a choice. The reality has set in in of the logistics of living. It was disappointing, but also at the time, I felt, ‘You know what? Not everything has to be a success in life. Sometimes it’s the experience that really matters.’ I was so happy that I actually got to take the leap, experience, find out, and not die wondering. I think we’re so focused with such a results-driven society where everything you do needs to become a success, or you have to achieve a result. In this case, me, I was actually quite happy that I was brave enough to actually step outside of my comfort zone and experience it. Joseph: It sounds like it was a moment where you really went for it, which I think is really irable. Those moments in our lives end up being so rewarding and so memorable in so many ways, and yet you had to make this practical move, which is actually quite a salient point that I know a lot of people are thinking about right now – balancing your hopes and your dreams with the realities of the environment. You go back and you work in banking, and you do that for a few years, and then you started to get a bit of an itch. Can you walk me through what triggered that? Liya: I spent a few years working very hard and trying climb the career ladder and do all things that you’re meant to be doing. I was actually quite good at it, and I had a very good experience. After Barclays, I went into a smaller financial services institution in London. That was a really positive experience for me. I really came into my own in my career and started kicking goals and achieving things and really enjoyed it. But at some point, I think you get to a stage where just hard work is no longer enough. To be truly successful, you need to be very invested and interested and engaged in what you are doing. That was the issue I was facing, that ‘take that next step,’ and to really succeed, I had to go all in. I think the timing was interesting because I was in my early to mid-30’s. It is a time I think where you tend to stop, take a breath, and assess, and take stock of where your life is and where your career is. That’s when I started thinking, ‘Okay, is that all it is?’ Actually, it’s around that time that I discovered your podcast. I started listening to it. I was binging on it. I couldn’t get enough, because I was getting all these stories of people who are in the same shoes as me. It was very, very helpful. I think it was actually quite inspiring and motivational for me to actually take the leap and start looking into what it is that I wanted to do going forward. Joseph: You mentioned the word ‘meant to be’ earlier when you were describing what you are meant to be doing, which I always think is a really interesting topic. What should we be doing versus what are we meant to be doing versus what do we want to be doing. How did you figure out where you were meant to be? Liya: I tried to figure out what was important to me, what drove me. I think it’s misleading to think, ‘Do what you love.’ I think it needs to be a little bit more granular than that. Once you figure out what drives you—for some people its money, for some people it’s power, for some people it’s purpose—whatever it is, you need to figure out what makes you tick and what makes you get up in the morning. By thinking that, I realized that for me, purpose was very important and what I associate myself with. The why is very important. I started thinking about that and what I’ve been interested in, and also trying not to start over as such, but try to combine it. Was there any way that I could combine my interest in fashion with what I had already done and the person that I had become by that stage? I didn’t go on this big job hunt. I actually focused, honed in on this one company that I work for now, The Business of Fashion. I was spending my entire free time either reading their content or listening to their podcasts. I’m really, really enjoying what they were putting out there into the world. They really opened my eyes into some of the issues in the world of fashion that I’ve never even considered. By figuring out what was important to me, and by figuring out what I was doing in my spare time that didn’t feel like work, that’s how I eventually landed at the conclusion. Joseph: I think you mentioned before when we spoke, it took six months for you to actually land at the role that you wanted. Persistence is something we talk a lot about on this show. I think it’s especially relevant right now. What were the steps that you took during this time to stay on the radar of the eventual employer that you ended up working for? Liya: One of the jokes at our company is that I employed myself essentially, because I applied for a job, and I wasn’t really qualified to do the job that was going at the time. I thought, ‘You know what? I’m never going to get this.’ I wrote a letter to the CEO, explaining all the reasons why I was wrong but all the reasons why I should be hired and why I should be in the company. I heard somewhere that in this day and age, you sign an envelope by hand, people will always open it because how often do you get an envelope that is signed by hand? That’s exactly what I did. Anyway, that lead to them reaching out, and I went for coffee with our head of people and just stayed in touch, and I said to him, ‘Would you mind if I checked in with you every other month?’ Eventually, six months later, a job came up. I applied, and I still had to go through the whole process, the application process. Eventually, it paid off. The important lesson here is that building relationships takes time. Sometimes, you need to go into it without the certainty that there will something at the end. Joseph: It sounds like this ended up working out. You end up working for The Business of Fashion. We’re almost to the present day now. You mentioned when we spoke before that at time moment when you were in London and you’re working at The Business of Fashion and you were in the industry and the sector that you want to be in, your life was exactly how you wanted it. Yet, you ended up deciding to move to Sydney. Could you just explain what prompted you to return to Sydney, and what was happening for you at that time with your life in London? Liya: Life happens when you’re busy making plans. I was at a point where everything was going great. I was looking at my life thinking, ‘Finally, yes. This is my perfectly design life. This is what I want to be.’ Then I reconnected with an ex-boyfriend of mine, who is based out of Sydney. For a number reasons, he’s not able to move back to London. I was faced with a question of choice and choosing. At the time, I looked at it as choosing between a man and a job. That was very daunting for me. Looking back at it now, I don’t think it was the right way of looking at it. My inner feminist felt very guilty because I thought, ‘Well, I worked so hard to get this job. I worked so hard to build this life. What am I doing? Can I actually leave all these behind and choose this other path?’ That was very difficult. That was a tough choice because it’s two things that you don’t necessarily want to be choosing between. Joseph: You ultimately did decide to move to Sydney. I can just imagine how tough that decision was because I’ve been in a very similar situation myself, as you know, before I moved to London. How did you envision things going? What were your plans when you decided to move to Sydney? Liya: I realized that I was not defined by my job or by the company that I work for or even the country that I live in, that I have a choice of how to define myself, and I hold the narrative around that. That was very powerful for me because it wasn’t that, by choosing Sydney, I was giving up on something. I then chose to look at it as an opportunity to potentially reinvent myself yet again roll the dice, go on an adventure, do something different. That’s how I dealt with that. That was my thinking. I wanted to keep an open mind, see what’s out there. I know that the industry is very different. The fashion industry is a lot smaller. The media landscape is very different here in Australia. I really want to just get in touch with as many people as possible, have a chat, and see where I land. After having done all that thinking and all of that evaluating, by the time I landed here, I was actually feeling very positive and very open minded. Joseph: That was at the beginning of 2020. Liya: Exactly. Joseph: You’re going to networking events, you’re feeling quite positive about how things can shape up there, and then corona virus hit. I recall you mentioning before that you actually had already put in your notice with your current company at the time, where the notice period was coming to an end in March. Liya: Basically, I was meant to do my three months with BoF and finish off here. Hopefully within three months, I was able to find a job. I felt like I really started making progress. Through my networking events, I got in touch with an executive coach who very kindly decided to take me on as a pro bono case and mentor me through my transition here because she’s been through very similar experiences to me. That has been great, because it taught me that you don’t have to do it on your own. If you surround yourself with the right network and with people who believe in you and you, that can be actually quite powerful. Then corona hit, and everything came to a halt. The whole world stopped. Definitely all the conversations we’ve had were put on freeze indefinitely at this point. Joseph: This is the last thing, Liya, that I’m hoping to talk with you about before we wrap up with what some of the things are that you’re doing at this moment. How are you dealing with the lack of clarity and the free fall that people feel that they’re in when they suddenly have the rug pulled out from under them for reasons completely outside of their control? How are you dealing with this? Liya: You have to adapt. There’s no point in sitting there and thinking, ‘Wouldn’t it be great if and only if?’ That’s not how it works. In any adversity, there can always be opportunity, but you really need to work hard to go and find it. I started to try and see the positives, if there were any, of this situation. Letting go of control, I think that that free fall that you mentioned can be actually incredibly liberating, because all of a sudden, the boundaries have been lifted. You know when people say, ‘If the world was to end tomorrow, what would you do? Now, you get the opportunity. The world is not ending, but the world has stopped. What are you doing? If you could do anything, what would it be? It allows us to get creative and to find opportunities outside of what you’re doing now. I think it’s a great time to reset, rethink, and to create not just in a little creative way, but just take some time. The other thing that was interesting is that it’s an incredible learning experience as well, looking at how the businesses are reacting, how people are reacting, what they’re doing, how they’re pivoting, how they’re adapting. First and foremost, this is obviously a human tragedy, and it’s very, very sad. The scope of this problem is huge. For me, I try to get the most out of living at this time and living through it and taking away some important lessons of how to manage businesses and how to manage your own life and your own mental health. Joseph: You mentioned earlier that we’re all so achievement-focused and how that can actually blind us to what really matters. I really feel this is moment, as you mentioned earlier, when we’re almost all forced to think about what really matters. Have you had a moment to give that any thought? Liya: The one big take away is that what really matters is health and your family and the well-being of people around you. That is number one priority. There’s a lot of fear out there in the world. Fear, initially when you think of fear, you think it’s negative, sentimental, negative feeling. Actually, fear can be good as well. By overcoming fear, it gives you resilience. It creates bravery. Whether it’s fear of death or fear for your health, fear for your job security, all of that eventually, when you overcome it, makes you more resilient. Joseph: Definitely. I would love to wrap up, Liya, by talking a little bit more about how you are managing some of your own thoughts. I know that one of the things that you’re doing right now is you’re doing a lot more writing these days on LinkedIn. Can you just tell me a little bit more about what you’re writing about? Liya: I’ve taken this opportunity to focus on building up my personal brand a little bit, because I don’t know when my career will grow and how it will progress. One of the things that I thought would be good is to write a little bit about my experience. Obviously, a lot of people out there have gone into the world of working from home or smart working, and it’s very new to them. I have been doing this for the last three months, and I realized that actually, perhaps I have something to share that could be useful for people. I sat down and started writing down my thoughts and my experience about spending three months being so far away from my team and working remotely and what that has been like. I try to put down some tips and observations of this new world of remote, I guess. Time, I think, is one of the most precious resources. Interestingly, around this crisis, people have time. People are willing to talk. People are willing to connect. Everyone’s very open. That’s one of the things I noticed, and I’ve been trying to do from my end with respect to my career development, I guess. Joseph: That’s fantastic. We’ll definitely include a link to your LinkedIn profile in the show notes. One other thing that, I think, you mentioned to me before was that The Business of Fashion also has some events that could be relevant to people right now. Can you tell me a little bit more about that? Liya: One of the things that Business of Fashion does outside of editorial and news coverage of the business side of the fashion industry is actually events. As you can imagine, running events in this current climate is impossible, so we have moved and tried to pivot as much as possible into the digital space. We are running a number of live events where they cover anything from wellness to industry talks to career-related talks Most of them are actually free, so you don’t have to be a subscriber. I’ve been following all of them myself as well because it’s great to just connect with other people to talk about things and to realize that we’re all in this together. We also have a number of short online courses on not only fashion but also things like building your career, which is probably one of my favorite courses that we’ve done. It’s run by Musa Tariq, who’s the global head of marketing for Airbnb experiences. I would encourage everyone to come check us out. As you probably guessed from this podcast, I’m very ionate about what Business of Fashion does. Check us out at businessoffashion.com, and attend some of our live events. Joseph: I’m definitely going to do that. I’ve also noticed that there’s been a major uptick in online virtual activities, which is actually quite convenient right now. There were some in the past, but there’s a lot more of those now. It’s a really convenient way to gain access to and also connect with people you might not have otherwise been able to connect with. Thanks for sharing that. Thank you so much, Liya, for telling us more about your life, first of all as a financial controller but also how you’ve managed all the various leaps you’ve taken in life into and out of fashion and then back into it, and most importantly the importance of resilience and overcoming your fears during this time of so much uncertainty in the world. Please stay safe, and I hope things eventually work out for you once things get back to normal. Thanks for being here today. Liya: Thank you so much, Joseph.

We all have to sometimes wear different hats in our lives and careers. You’re often required to wear different hats in your career if you’re balancing different professional identities or just trying to maintain a certain image at work that doesn’t always reflect how you’re truly feeling inside. In Career Relaunch episode 69, Sophie Scott describes how she balances the work she does as both a psychotherapist and founder of Balance Media. We had a nice conversation about wearing different professional hats, managing your own wellbeing, and of course, maintaining balance in your life. I’ll also describe how those people who seem to have it all figured out in their careers may still struggling with their own issues. Key Career Insights The losses you experience in your life can be a huge tragedy but also a blessing that can inform the career choices you may that can provide the most meaning. It’s so important to connect with not only others but also with yourself. Use your purpose as your primary motivator to guide your decisions. All of us are still works-in-progress. Although it may seem like someone has the perfect life, earns an incredible income, or has everything figured out, the reality is that most of us are still trying to figure things out. Having several career changes is not unusual these days. If the idea of switching careers feels “weird” to you, consider thinking about your career as a series of chapters rather than as one continuous vocation. There’s incredible strength in being an adaptable generalist rather than a specialist because you’re able to connect the dots amongst disparate disciplines. When you’re burnt out, it’s not a good time to make a decision. Instead, it’s a time to rest, recuperate, and ask for . Tweetables to Share I want to lead my best life and be as true to myself as possible because it can all be over quickly. Sophie Scott Tweet This Resources Mentioned Sophie mentioned that psychological projection and transference both have useful applications to understanding professional relationships in the workplace. Here’s a helpful article from Psychology Today about projection and another on transference. Sophie mentioned the Thought Diary app, which can help you manage your emotions and thoughts. it from the Google Play store and iOS app store. Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel segment, I talked about the importance of acknowledging to yourself that the struggles you’re going through may not have to do with a bad choice you’ve made, approach you’ve chosen, or talent you don’t possess. Instead, your career struggle may just be a very normal part of the situation you’re in, a struggle that many other people would also have if they were in a similar situation. Consider cutting yourself some slack and reminding yourself you’re doing your best with the resources and energy you have. That’s all you can do. But if you need a boost, or if you need , to go ahead and take that step to ask for help. To ask for help from a friend, mentor, or professional who can help you sort through it. About Sophie Scott, Psychotherapist & Founder of Balance Media Sophie Scott is the Founder and Editor-in-chief of BALANCE, leading the award-winning, high growth media and lifestyle brand into the top tier of UK publications. She also regularly advises brands on go-to-market strategies and delivers wellness workshops for the likes of L’Oreal, Mediacom and Accenture. She’s coached and mentored at every level, from students to Fortune 500 CEOs, and has completed her 5-year training in Psychotherapy at the Centre for Counselling and Psychotherapy Education. Follow Sophie on Instagram and Balance on Instagram and Facebook. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare, Tweet to let me and Sophie know! Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Subscribe: Be sure to subscribe to Career Relaunch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow Career Relaunch on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to BrandYourself for ing Career Relaunch A2 Hosting allows you to offers simple tools and services to help control what people find when they Google you. To clean up, protect, and improve how you look online, visit BrandYourself.com and use promo code ‘RELAUNCH’ to get 50% off a hip.