Career Relaunch 4x683j

What does it mean to live your best life? Is it achieving professional success? Financial freedom? Being physically fit? Having a loving family? Pursuing a clear purpose? All of the above? In episode 106 of the Career Relaunch® podcast, Sadaf Raza, a former investment banker turned brand marketer turned founder of Leadearly, a business school issions consultancy. Sadaf provides unique perspectives on changing industries and shifting from full-time employment to running your own business. We discuss how to avoid the trap of doing what you feel you should do in your career so you can focus your efforts on what you want to do to honor your own values and priorities. She also shares a few helpful perspectives on how attending business school can enable your career pivot. 💡 Key Career Insights Speaking to people doing things you’re doing is an effective way to make a major transition rather than trying to do it all on your own. Taking small actions can give you much more clarity than analysis alone. You have to act in order for the path to emerge. You have to define your own measures of success so you can feel good about your own choices and live a life that makes you happy. 💪🏼Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I challenged you to identify the top pillars you’ve been dedicating your energies to in your life and career recently. Name them. Then, look honestly at what you’ve been prioritizing and consider whether you’ve been investing your energies into the right pillars that bring you joy. Avoid fixating on achieving the standard, societal definition of success. Dedicate your energy and resources to what makes you happy, not what you feel should make you happy. 📖 Episode Chapters 00:00:00 Overview 00:01:07 Introduction 00:03:16 Chat with Sadaf 00:46:53 Mental Fuel 00:55:06 Listener Challenge 00:55:47 Wrap Up 👤  About Sadaf Raza Sadaf Raza is the founder of Leadearly, a leading issions consultancy for Master’s, MBA, and Executive MBA programmes in the UK & Europe. Sadaf prides herself in being able to quickly identify and articulate an individual’s unique strengths, leveraging the industry expertise she’s gained herself through multiple career pivots to help candidates shape their business school applications. She’s worked as an Investment Banker at Bank of America, Brand Manager at Procter & Gamble, and Franchise Manager for EMEA at Johnson & Johnson, before starting her first entrepreneurial venture in retail. She has an MBA from INSEAD and is ionate ing her 20+ years of experience to help others accelerate in their careers. 👍🏻 Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or Android so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Facebook and LinkedIn. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, and Bluesky. 💬 Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!  Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! 🙏🏻 Thanks to Wise for ing the Career Relaunch® podcast Wise is the world’s most international bank . It lets you hold and convert multiple currencies all in one place, offering a smarter, easier way to move money internationally without the typical bank fees or foreign exchange commissions. I’ve used it for years myself to handle many of my own international transactions. Try Wise for free at CareerRelalunch.net/wise. 📄 Episode Transcript [00:03:24] Joseph: Well, I know you’ve got a lot going on right now and there’s so much we want to cover today. I would love to start by just getting a sense of what you have been focused on professionally right now in your life, and then we can talk about anything going on for you personally in a moment. [00:03:38] Sadaf: So I’m an issions consultant. I work with Masters, MBA and MBA applicants in the UK, Europe and beyond, and it’s just come to the end of the busiest issions season. So it’s been full on and at the moment we’re doing lots of interviews I interview on behalf of Insead Business School, and so I really enjoy helping people prepare for their interviews, whether it’s for ission or for a job or a promotion that they’re working on. And I think as we come into the summer, there will be a lot more of that to come. So it’s been fun. I love what I do, so it doesn’t feel so much like work, but it’s been busy. [00:04:15] Joseph: I guess you’re familiar with lots of different business school programs. You work with lots of different business school applicants. Are you working with any particular type of cohort? Are these the people who want to do an MBA or an executive MBA or both? [00:04:29] Sadaf: I think because I myself am an alumni from Insead Business school, I tend to get a lot of Insead focused applicants, but most people are applying to multiple places. I also get a lot of master’s applicants for like specific subjects like economics or finance or management or marketing. So it’s a mix, and I think that makes it interesting for me also. [00:04:51] Joseph: What about personally anything keeping you especially busy recently in your your life outside of work? [00:04:57] Sadaf: I have a two boys that keep me exceptionally busy. Not in this season, but in all seasons. [00:05:04] Joseph: How old are your boys? [00:05:06] Sadaf: They are turning four this weekend and ten next month. [00:05:10] Joseph: Oh, wow. Okay. So, I guess very different types of challenges with those ages and different things that they’re doing. Well, I know that you haven’t always worked in this space as a business school issions consultant. I do want to talk about your time working in a range of industries, including banking, marketing, and eventually talk a little bit more about lead early. I would love to go back in time a little bit. And first of all, talk about where you’re originally from. I know you’re based in the UK now. Where did you grow up, and can you tell me a little bit about that environment? [00:05:42] Sadaf: I grew up in Lahore in Pakistan, so very different environment. I’m one of four girls. I went to an all girls school. I was the first one in my family to go abroad to study. My parents didn’t know at the time that I applied, and it was just something that I really wanted to do. And then after that, all my female cousins sort of came there much more naturally. But yes, I was seeking new adventures and and opportunities, and I guess that’s what drove me. [00:06:13] Joseph: Now I have, as I mentioned to you before we started this recording, I have been to Lahore actually myself. Could you give people a glimpse into what life was like for you? What do you about your childhood growing up there? And can you paint a picture of just the overall environment, especially in the context of careers, what you thought you wanted to do when you grew up, what maybe you were told you should do when you grow up? What was that like for you over there? [00:06:40] Sadaf: I having sort of lots of long summers being bored. There was a lot of time with cousins. There was a lot of time with family. There was definitely girls versus boys. Things to do, you know, like a divide there. Yeah. It was a very happy, simple childhood. Let’s put it that way. [00:07:04] Joseph: How did you come to the decision to move to the UK? Because I would imagine that’s quite a leap to take, going from Pakistan all the way here to Europe. Do you how you started to think about wanting to move away from home? [00:07:20] Sadaf: It was just wanting opportunity. You know, I felt like a lot of things that you maybe saw on TV or, or you heard about was just not offered to you. Even things like sort of work experience while you were a student. I mean, nobody does that in Pakistan because you don’t have side jobs. It’s not safe. As a girl to do so. And I think that a lot of times I’d heard people say, girls can’t do this, right. So, for instance, I I used to debate in school like a lot of children now do. And I one of the semi-finals in the debating championships. I was from a girls school. We were up against the old boys school, a leading school, and one of the boys said, you know, girls can’t win from boys, you know, just 16 or 17 years old. And I being very pumped in my team and being like, yes, we’re going to do this. And then we ended up winning. You know, I won National Debater. I think that changed things for me. When you sort of somebody tells you you can’t do it and then you do. That was probably a year before this decision to apply to university. So I feel like, you know, when you do one small thing that you thought you couldn’t, that kind of gives you confidence to do the next thing. [00:08:35] Joseph: Well, let’s talk a little bit now about your time in the UK and that chapter of your career. There’s a lot to cover here. I’d love to start by talking about just your educational entry into the UK and what that transition was like for you, how that started to shape what you thought you might want to do professionally. [00:08:55] Sadaf: So when I came to London in my very first week, I thought, I’m a Londoner, I’m going to live here. This is amazing. And I signed up to every club or activity that there was at university. And then I was very focused on getting internships, because I knew that you need some experience to be able to do that. And while my degree was in computer science, the investment banks were the ones that were really hiring because you had to prove for a Pakistani student that nobody else in the country can do the job that you can do. And, you know, you’re like 17 or 18, 19. At the time, that felt like a tall ask. And so then I was kind of focused on, you know, getting all the help I could with building my CV and kind of getting help with my interview skills. And I guess this is what maybe motivates me to do what I do today, because I got a lot of help from well-meaning people along the way. And that advice paved the way for me. And and I enjoy doing that for other people. [00:09:52] Joseph: Now, you would eventually land at Bank of America as an investment banker. That is no small task to land a role like that coming out of university. Like, what do you attribute that to? Because it’s a very competitive industry. And as you mentioned, you’re coming here as a foreign student. How do you feel you were able to land a role for such a competitive role in a competitive industry? [00:10:17] Sadaf: Honestly, it was the right advice at the right time. I know I wasn’t the only one at a good university getting good grades. Everybody who was applying to these internships was I was just the person who at the time didn’t have the knowledge to pay for experts to help me, but I would speak to anybody who I thought had, you know, some advice to offer and got some very useful advice at the right time, because I think a lot of time people are willing and able, but they don’t recognize what is needed for a particular industry or a particular role. And I think that helped me then pitch myself in a very targeted way to those employers. [00:10:59] Joseph: Now, in of the investment banking world itself, I will say we haven’t had a tremendous number of AI bankers on the show, and I’d be interested just to get a glimpse into what that world was like for you. I know this was many years ago, but you spent three years in this industry. And I think when I think about the corporate world, I guess stereotypically AI, banking and maybe like consulting would be up there as one of the supposedly most, like cutthroat, intense competitive environments with long hours. What did you think you were getting into? And then what was the actual reality of working as an investment banker for you? [00:11:43] Sadaf: I mean, all that you hear about Workaholism is true. The culture was definitely be in before anybody else and leave after everybody else and be busy, you know, and be challenged. You want kind of explained tasks so well. It was sort of, you know, take your best attempt at doing the work and then somebody senior then you will improve it and eventually somebody will fix it and and give it forward. So it was a lot of thrown at the deep end. But at the same time it was very exciting. You know, doing the analyst training program in New York, you went and like lived in a hotel for I think it was ten weeks or something traveling and like having meetings with CEOs of companies. And you’re right there in the room with them and you’ve done some of the pitch work. So you are kind of presenting your numbers. The training was really good. I think for me, I always knew that I had a creative side, and I feel that my upbringing and the conditioning was those who could do Stem subjects did those, those who couldn’t, they would do more creative subjects. So while I was good at maths and I was good at more creative things, it was obvious I was pushed towards technical stuff because I was so lucky that I could. That’s when I realised, okay, I’m doing all this training, that’s great, but I want to do stuff that I’m very excited to do and I need that to be more creative. Structured finance was considered the most creative side of the bank, but it wasn’t quite the creativity I was looking for. And so I decided to move out of there. [00:13:14] Joseph: Now, how did you come to the decision to move into brand management? I hear you that you wanted to work in a more creative industry. Was marketing just the obvious next step for you? How did you come to that decision to move from banking into marketing? [00:13:30] Sadaf: It was not an obvious one. I didn’t know much about marketing at all, to be honest. I was confusing it with sales. You know, they were all mis matched in my brain. I didn’t know anybody who worked in marketing because then suddenly I was surrounded by everybody in finance and tech. And so that was tricky to figure out what I wanted to do. But actually, I think the ission essays for these business schools that I was applying to, because they make you write very detailed answers about specific short term, long term career strategy. And so I realized I don’t know much about this. Let me apply to something that sounds exciting. I thought Procter and Gamble was like this, you know, marketing school best in class, and I was the only one company I applied to. And I only intended to learn about brand management through the process. And then I ended up getting an offer from Insead and P&G the same weekend. But that was the whole idea of applying was to learn. And then I decided to take the plunge and do Procter and Gamble. And I was lucky enough to defer my entry to Insead, so I managed to do both, but it was a little bit of, I have an idea what I want to do, but I need to start doing it to figure it out. [00:14:43] Joseph: That’s a good weekend of news, I suppose. [00:14:46] Sadaf: Yes. [00:14:47] Joseph: And so you’ve got the option of going to business school. You have the option of going to one of the top tier consumer packaged goods companies. Was that a tricky decision for you to decide which to do first? Because I know I guess you could argue it either way, I guess. On the one hand, it’s good to get some additional experience before you get to business school, but on the other hand, I guess you could go to business school and learn the nuts and bolts of marketing before applying it. How did you think through that educational decision versus let me go further in my professional experiences? [00:15:19] Sadaf: I am the type of person who usually wants to do both, if I can. And so I realized that if I was more familiar with brand management, since I didn’t know much about it, I just had this one experience that would be more meaningful to then go to business school to use that knowledge and see where I want to go from there. And that was definitely the right decision, because when I did Johnson and Johnson after Insead, they had a fast track leadership program and I jumped about 6 to 8 years in the marketing hierarchy because I had done the marketing and then I had come in now as a senior person. And so I didn’t know that at the time, but that worked out much better for me. And I do think before business school, most people use the business school to transition because they can’t transition without it. And so if you do have the opportunity to transition, it’s an immense learning experience to know what it is that you want to do by being in it a little bit. And so I think that was a better strategy. [00:16:19] Joseph: What was the world of brand management like for you at Procter and Gamble and J&J? Did you feel like you were able to feed that creative thirst that you had? And how was that career chapter sitting with you personally? Do you recall what that was like? [00:16:35] Sadaf: Yes, I loved it. The creativity, it felt quite natural. It was very practical. You know, you go into stores and you see your products everywhere, and I would fix it on a shelf if I saw something in boots. And it was a great learning experience. Also practically like when I did entrepreneurship later, sort of the brand marketing training was about, you know, understanding consumers, understanding your brand, understanding how to get more consumers to buy from you. And I think that was very valuable training. [00:17:09] Joseph: One other thing I think that comes up sort of, with people who make these radical industry changes is sort of a sense of, I don’t know how to put this, but a bit of tension between trying to maintain your past trajectory or to go off and make a leap, which is, I think, what you did here and pursue something that you actually genuinely feel ionate about. Was it a struggle at all for you to walk away from the banking world? And I don’t mean that as like a leading question, but given that it’s so competitive to get in, was there any part of you that felt like so many people would want this role? Maybe I should stick with this? Or was that not really an issue? [00:17:48] Sadaf: No, absolutely. People thought I was ungrateful, you know, to have this opportunity and to reject it. Like, who would do that? And to be clear, I was very grateful. I appreciated, you know, I could not have stayed in the country if I hadn’t had the job. And I learned so much. But it was when I started speaking to people, actually, I spoke to a career coach at the time. And, you know, the advice to me was, stick it out longer here. Don’t leave yet because the good part is coming. And then I realized, but when I have more experience in finance, but then I want to change, it’s going to actually be even harder because the opportunity cost is going to be even more. And I’m now going to be more of an expert in finance. So if you want to stay within the industry and pivot, maybe that more experience can be handy. But if you want to change industry, then Actually, it’s better to get out earlier because it just only gets harder the longer you stay. [00:18:48] Joseph: So you are enjoying your time at J&J. You’re loving the world of brand management and the creative outlet that it provides. I know eventually you would shift into doing some more entrepreneurial endeavors. How did that come about and how did things start for you having some entrepreneurial business on the side? [00:19:12] Sadaf: So I had two business partners on the ground in Pakistan when I started the retail venture, and it was really a conversation that came up about a business opportunity in the retail space. As somebody with an entrepreneurial flair, I just saw the opportunity in it. And then as somebody who had now done business school, I could see the potential in it. Bit. And as somebody who is a marketeer, the excitement of building a brand from scratch without anything constricting you was super exciting. And lastly, as somebody who was ambitious, then kind of determining my own fate and being able to run, which is what I wanted to do at the time, felt like more exciting than the perfectly happy career I had in Brand Manager. And so those are the reasons I decided to take that leap. [00:20:05] Joseph: Now I’m just looking at the timeline here. So if I’ve got this correct, correct me if I’m wrong here, but you’re at J&J from 2010 to 2012. Letelier, which is this venture that you mentioned that you co-founded in Pakistan that’s running from 2010 to 2016. So it seems like there was some overlap here. How did you manage that? J&j like that’s a pretty intense not intense. But like I guess it’s quite a demanding job at this company. And at the same time you’re trying to start this other business in Pakistan remotely. How did you balance that? [00:20:38] Sadaf: So I think of Natalia as my first child. [00:20:41] Joseph: Okay. [00:20:42] Sadaf: And as any parent would tell you, you have no idea what you’re getting into. And then you somehow find the time to keep this child alive and thriving while having a full time job. And you’re probably just sleepless. You’re tired, but you’re excited. You know you’re doing them both. So that’s exactly how it was so exciting. And yes, and I definitely could not have done it with two partners on the ground. But I did the business development and the marketing things that I enjoyed my forte. And yes, the business did really well. And that kind of is another encouragement that keeps you going. [00:21:18] Joseph: The other thing I was curious about is because it sounds like you were balancing both for a while and at the same time, eventually, again, if I’ve got the timeline right here, you would dedicate your time full time to working on lately. How did you come to that decision to let go of the steady, full time work and to dedicate yourself 100% to what was, I suppose, initially a side hustle, but eventually would be your full time focus? [00:21:49] Sadaf: Yes. So it was the success of Le Tellier. We were profitable from day one. Our business model was very good. And so not just in revenue, I mean profitability. We made our money back in 15 months. This was, you know, big 6000ft² retail space. We were running. And then we grew into our own label, a salon on the retail premises, online store. And it was a point where we were going to open another store in another city, which was also going to be even bigger, like 10,000ft² of space. And I thought, okay, I am ready. I need to be on the ground and I need to take this to the next level. [00:22:29] Joseph: What do you during those first days of going from going to an office to kind of being in it with Letelier, and I suppose doing a wide range of a lot of things all at once. What was that transition like for you? [00:22:46] Sadaf: It was very exciting. It was like, it’s like you’re obsessed with this project. You know, you’re always thinking about it. You always have ideas around it. I mean, I didn’t have children at the time, so it was easier to be, you know, all in. And there was a lot happening. But I have very happy memories of that period. [00:23:03] Joseph: So then I guess this then begs the question. So it sounds like things are going well there. You guys are growing rapidly. On paper, this looks like a pretty good transition you’re running Letelier. Things are going well. It sounds like it’s super exciting. Where does lead? Early, then? Come into the picture. How did that enter into this world of entrepreneurship for you? [00:23:27] Sadaf: Yes. So there were two things happening there. One was the retail industry, which has struggled worldwide. We had similar issues with retail, so you either had to like double down and go into production or something, or you were just paying three times more for the same retail space because the laws had changed and the economics was just not there in the same way. And then at the same time as I was thinking, do I want to kind of, you know, go into production now in Pakistan, I contemplated what was it that I was really ionate about because the retail opportunity was because my business partners were ionate about the sector, and I saw the business opportunity in it. And as I thought about my own ions, that’s where the education industry became apparent to me, because I was always the sort of person who was a lifelong learner. I really valued all the investment and learning I made and how it changed my trajectory, and I really wanted to help people kind of learn from not just my experiences, but the experiences of all the people I now had access to in my network who were doing really well. And that’s when I felt like, okay, this is a space that I would like to play in. [00:24:43] Joseph: I’d love to shift gears here just a little bit. Now set off and talk about this solo venture of yours, because you guys you were working on lately with a couple of business partners. What’s different about this is you’re running this on your own, and I’d love to hear a little bit about what the early days were like for you in like 2016, when you were just trying to get this idea off the ground? Like, what do you ? I guess I’m thinking about the good, the bad and the ugly as you’re trying to take this idea of working in the education space and turn it into something concrete. [00:25:20] Sadaf: I bootstrapped it. That was always my business style, you know, like, have the business make money and then reinvest it. And initially, it was very exciting. It was kind of like that. It’s the lean product. I’m forgetting the term, but it’s basically you kind of you’re selling the idea and you’re making the product at the same time, right? And it’s just you and your and you’re running with it. It was very exciting. I was led by creativity. And so in that period, I mean, I made a simulation from scratch. And I had like, you know, so much exciting stuff going on. So it was great, but it was also very busy because it was just one of me. And so it was nonstop. You were running before you could walk, and you were kind of doing that all over again. So it was quite tough, that bit of it. It was relentless. [00:26:04] Joseph: I’m just thinking you mentioned you’ve got a ten year old son. And so this is I guess 26. [00:26:09] Sadaf: The math that you’re doing is I love it. [00:26:11] Joseph: It’s like basic math. [00:26:12] Sadaf: Every date. [00:26:13] Joseph: Not investment banking math basic math here. But so he’s entering the picture here, I guess at the exact same time that you’re trying to get this off the ground. And I’m just curious how you managed that because you got this newborn. I think that is coinciding with you trying to get this business started. I’d love to hear a little bit more about that balance. [00:26:36] Sadaf: Let me add one more thing to the mix to make it more exciting for you, Joseph. The week I actually launched, literally, I was living in UAE at the time, so in Dubai was the week I moved back to London. [00:26:48] Joseph: Was that intentional? [00:26:50] Sadaf: So the idea was I was planning to move back to London and I wanted to test the idea out in Dubai. I kind of wanted to do a pilot, and the pilot took off, and it made sense to kind of fuel the fire where it was burning, but starting it in London because it was already had started in Dubai. And so I just kept running with that then. And I had a little baby and living in the country. Yes, it was a lot. [00:27:21] Joseph: I would also be curious to hear about the evolution of lead early. So you’re coming up, I guess, to ten years of running this thing. How has your business changed or not changed over the past few years? [00:27:37] Sadaf: Yes. So it has changed. I changed my business model, going with kind of conventional business school wisdom about scale, which is what I was doing at the time. So we were growing like 2 or 300%, but it wasn’t enough. You just had to keep reinvesting and keep growing. I realized that I wanted to do a business that was more a freedom first sort of model, and I’d love to hear your thoughts because I feel you live in the same space. [00:28:04] Joseph: Yeah, we can. [00:28:04] Sadaf: Talk about that. Like, you know, you’re building all of this to one day, eventually exit. You know, you don’t know when that day is going to be. And this period just feels like really intense and non-stop. You know, I had one child, I wanted to have another child at the time. And I was like, how am I going to fit this all in? And then Covid happened, which in some ways was a gift to me personally because I couldn’t travel to Dubai. They were very strict about the way the program was categorized. You know, you could not operate it. There was no distancing way of running it. It was kind of in the banned stuff category for a while. Parents who were sending their children to homeschool will that was not a pleasant experience, and nobody wanted to have more screen time for their children, you know, beyond school hours. And that took me back to the drawing board. And then I thought, okay, I still want to be in education. I still really want to help people with all that I have learned. But how do I do it in a in a meaningful way that s a life that I have, that gives me freedom to spend time with my children, to look after my health, my family, but also help people in a significant way. And this period in their lives when they’re applying to university. And it can make the difference between them going to a second year university or a premier university. I mean, that totally changes your options. Or if you are, you know, applying for a job and you’re not getting it, getting that job means economic transformation for yourself and your family. That felt really something worth doing. And so that’s how I pivoted. And I am here in this version of lead early today. [00:29:49] Joseph: Am I correct in thinking that this is still just you at this point, running the day to day, and you are the one doing the consulting? [00:29:56] Sadaf: Yes, by design it is me who will directly work with any candidate. And I don’t plan to have like a team of staff because I want to be able to do this work directly. This is what I enjoy doing with people. And I have, of course, teams of people, agencies helping me do stuff. But the idea is on a need basis. I hire people for the role that they’re providing, but I don’t want to have scale an organization with lots of employees as a business model. And I understand, Joseph, you do something similar. So I would love to hear your thoughts on this too. [00:30:29] Joseph: There’s a really interesting topic for me because I don’t know about you, but as somebody who runs my own business and has run my own business for over a decade now, I will say that it’s quite often that I’ll get questions from other people, especially people I think, in the coaching space, because I guess technically I sit in that industry like the coaching industry, and I regularly get questions about like, are you thinking about growing your team? Have you thought about scaling this? Questions about like ive income streams, and I, like you, have resisted, I guess, the temptation or the pressure to scale or to try to scale. And at the same time, it just comes up a lot in discussion. And it’s something that does make me think about it. Like I think about like, am I doing this the right way? Should I be scaling? Like, should I be growing? Is this not big enough? Is this not fancy enough? And so it’s something that I have wrestled with over the years. But I’ve always come back to some of the things that you mentioned, which is just that I do prioritize the flexibility. I’m also a parent, and with our daughter, seven years old, I want to be able to maximize my time with her, and I feel like that’s easier to do if it’s just me, but it’s come up a lot. And yeah, I’d be curious to hear how you have thought about that, or maybe deflected any of the incoming questioning that you’ve gotten, especially because you have been in a situation where you did run a business that was scaling and was growing exponentially. So yeah, I’d be curious to hear how you’ve thought through that. [00:32:03] Sadaf: I feel like my business is still growing. I like the fact that I work with a select number of people, but I can choose who I work with. I’m still kind of pushing myself outside my comfort zone doing some new things, so I still feel it’s exciting. And so for me, I think this is a lesson in life that, you know, even when I did banking, for instance, you know, there’s well-meaning people giving you good advice about what would be better for your future. You have to kind of take that in, but then you have to you are the expert on yourself and the only one at that. And you have to think about, okay, what is it that will really make me happy? What is it that I’m trying to solve for or do? And does this add to that? Or is this just a good opportunity or something that somebody thinks is a good idea, but maybe it’s not for you at this point in time? And so I am much better now at asking myself the question and deciding independently and with clarity that actually, you know, this is what suits me. This is what I’m looking for more of in my life right now. It feels really good. But you have to keep ing that because it doesn’t stop people, you know, asking you and well-meaning meaning giving you advice, and so you have to take it as a gift and then use it or or just put it on the side. [00:33:24] Joseph: I do want to talk about some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way of your journey. And also, I’d love to cover a little bit around getting into business school and any tips you have for people on that. But before we do that, you mentioned something that you want to have more of in your life, which makes me think of the topic of wealth, where people are traditionally measuring wealth in of material possessions or money that you’ve earned or financial assets you’ve accumulated. And at the same time, I guess you’re mentioning a different type of wealth, which is more like lifestyle wealth, which is freedom and control of your time, the ability to have a flexible schedule so you can spend time with the people you want to spend time with. How has your measure of wealth evolved over the years? And I guess I’m thinking about this because in the context of you, because you started off in the investment banking industry, which is about as financially focused as an industry can get. And now you’re someone who’s focused much more on these other lifestyle aspects of wealth. And I’d love to hear a little bit about how your measures of wealth, or what you have wanted to have more of, has evolved for you over the years. [00:34:36] Sadaf: It’s a great question. So there’s two things that come to mind. One is I think there was a study done by Harvard maybe where they asked, I don’t know how many people on their deathbed, what they wish they had done differently. And nobody said earn more money or work more. And everybody said some version of spend more time with the people that matter to me. And I think as you kind of think about your future, I think it’s wise to learn from people who are already at that end of their life and looking back. And so I think that was a good lesson to have. And the second conversation was with my sister once during my crazy scaling stage where I was plugging in numbers in my business model and she asked me, you know, how’s it going? And I said, oh, I’ve made quite a conservative projection and it does not feel so exciting. And she said, oh, really? Okay. Doesn’t matter. And then the next day I went to her and I said, oh, I’m so excited. She said, what happened? I said, I just changed my projections a little bit and made them less conservative and actually, like, this is amazing, you know? [00:35:37] Sadaf: And she’s like, wow, what are you going to do with all this money, you know? And then I came up with something really simple, like I was like I would love to get lots of massages. And she said, that doesn’t cost that much money. And I realized you’re right. Why am I doing all this? It’s the things that I want to be doing. I can do that now. So it was that realization of the world conditions us into a lot of ego driven goals. And I feel like we think that that’s what we should be doing if we can, because somehow that’s the measure of success. But actually, if I think about, okay, what’s the money I have, where do I want to spend it? I will still, you know, want to get value. I still want to, you know, the things that I actually need. If I break them down, I’m like, actually, this is a way I can do everything that I want to do and more. And so that’s really what I should, you know, break it down to and then work around versus just kind of success as a kind of trajectory of just monetary growth, which is, of course, part of it. Because if you don’t have enough money, you’re going to want to make more money. But I think it’s the whole kind of work, play, love, health that has to come into at least it does for my ideal life. [00:36:50] Joseph: I feel like there’s such a default assumption that one’s salary must go up with every subsequent move, or that you must be earning more. You must be scaling. And I when I started my business, I actually, like, felt really uncomfortable with my salary because it was significantly lower initially, at least than my corporate salary. And I I was talking with my friend Hitesh and I was talking to him about this and he just said, look, are you able to do the things that you want to do? When I thought about it, I thought, you know what? Yeah. Like I’m not not doing anything because of finances. I’m still able to do the things I want to do. But I think we sometimes almost like glorify money. I’m not saying that people don’t need money, but I think that beyond a certain level, that incremental benefit is sometimes not as great as you think it is. And so. So, yeah, but money is an interesting topic to think about. I would love to finish up by just asking you a couple questions about some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way, set off of your very interesting career journey, and then finish up with a couple of business school questions for you. If you had to give yourself any advice to your younger self as it relates to navigating career pivots, what might that be? [00:38:06] Sadaf: The first thing I would say is In anything you want to do. There are experts that exists and people who are already doing it. And the more you can get closer to speaking to those people who are maybe doing the ideal thing you’re doing, or pay for advice like people like you. Joseph, I wish I had met you then to, you know, get the help to transition because I think it feels hard on your own. And I feel like all the you can get in that process, I think, is worth it, because it’s hard, even with the , you know, you still have to make things happen. And the second thing that I would encourage other people to do who are thinking about transitioning in any way is the action part. I think people live. We all live too much in our heads. Pros and cons and evaluating. And I think that if you take little action towards whatever thing you think, maybe I should test it out. I think investing to test is the best thing that gives you clarity, that just analysis alone will never give you so small step in the right direction and the options get clearer and the path emerges. You sort of have to just act in that direction first. [00:39:18] Joseph: And having been through this career change journey, what’s one thing that you have learned about yourself along the way? [00:39:26] Sadaf: I think I’ve learned that I can do anything I set my mind to doing. And I think I have to choose wisely because once I have decided this is what I’m going to do, then I’m going to do it. [00:39:40] Joseph: Final question here for you before I hit you with a couple lightning round questions around business school. But when you look back on your career change, is there anything that you wished you had known about changing careers that you now know. [00:39:53] Sadaf: That is going to be okay? There’s a fear of the unknown. And actually, looking back, each step was me seeking out something that was calling to me and getting me closer to the life I wanted to live. So all the kind of anxiety around should I or shouldn’t I? How would I just do it? [00:40:15] Joseph: I can’t let you go without asking you a couple questions about your area of expertise, which is around getting into business school and thinking about going to business school. I would love to hear your perspectives on how somebody can think through whether or not they should go to business school. Are there a couple of things that or a couple triggers that you feel should prompt somebody into thinking that, hey, now might be a good time to think about going to business school. [00:40:42] Sadaf: If you in your education before that point in time, you feel like maybe you didn’t go to the best school that you could have, or you feel like you could study something else that you didn’t know at the time weren’t offered at the time. I think it’s a great way of getting that kind of stamp on your CV, and for you to really explore so many wider topics and read so many inspiring people who then become your network and help you navigate life for the years beyond business school. And so I think it makes sense to make that investment in yourself. I feel like a lot of times people again measure it with success, which is typically like your job straight after business school. And of course, that’s an important aspect, but I feel so much of the benefit is for years to come. It’s the life that you lead with like minded people who are inspiring you and who are helping you problem solve whatever you are trying to do in your life, be it personal or business. And I think that’s a huge addition to your quality of life. [00:41:46] Joseph: I also know that you mentioned you only applied to Insead for business school. Coincidentally, I also when I was applying to business school, I only applied to one business school, which was the University of Michigan, where I eventually did my MBA. How should somebody think about like the number of schools to apply to? Now, you and I are extreme cases where we only apply to one. I suppose there’s another extreme where you’re applying to hundreds or whatever. I know this must vary on a case by case basis, but how do you think somebody should think about how many schools to apply to, especially in the context of somebody perhaps being a busy professional like you were when you applied to business school? [00:42:24] Sadaf: Three is a good number, 3 to 5 if you want to have some kind of backup. But I would rather focus your energy and make the best three applications that you can do and get into all three. Ideally, then hedge your bets with more, because I don’t think applying to more increases your chances. I think it’s about being very targeted, understanding the uniqueness of that business school, understanding the story that you have and what you offer, and then making that match obvious to them. And I think that takes time. And so if you’re going to try to do that with too many, you’re probably not going to do a good job. So it’s worth Are doing more effort for fewer ones and highlighting just how important they are to you and how much of a match you are for them. [00:43:12] Joseph: And any common mistakes that you see amongst applicants who are trying to get into business school that you tend to notice come up time and time again that people should consider or try to avoid. [00:43:23] Sadaf: Yes, so many, but I would say be as specific as possible. I think when people are trying to write in, you know, beautiful words and they often kind of miss the point. And it’s very important to zero in on the content. And even though you’re going to business school to open your options, you need to have done the work before, perhaps with someone to understand exactly what your career trajectory could look like, what you’re aiming for and know, kind of the company you might want to work for, the kind of work you want to do, the geography you want to be in, be very self aware of yourself. And again, the more specifics you can put in there, the more it shows that you are truly knowledgeable and will make the most of the experience. [00:44:07] Joseph: Well, speaking of getting the right help from the right person, I know this is one of your areas of expertise. Can you just finish up by telling us just a couple of the key services that you provide to prospective applicants, and where people can go to learn more about the work that you do? [00:44:23] Sadaf: Sure. So I work with candidates through the whole process, from figuring out which universities to apply to which course, understanding what is amazing in their story. A lot of times people are unaware of between all the things they’ve done, which would be most exciting for this university, and then doing the CV, the essays, the interviews, you know, choosing between offers, applying for scholarships, the whole round. And as part of that, when I find candidates who don’t have relevant work experience, for instance, and they need an internship on their CV, or they need to get to a particular type of promotion or work for their CV to be ready for their next educational journey. I help with them sort of end to end with the process. And I do that by. All my years of experience in different industries, I think that gives me a maturity to. Applications and writing about careers in a way that reflects well on the candidates after we’ve had those conversations. And my website is lead early. And so if anybody wants to get in touch, just drop us a line. [00:45:25] Joseph: Thank you so much, Sada, for first of all, talking to us about your very interesting career journey, the twists and the turns. How you made that transition from the corporate world into running lead early, and also just some of the tough questions that you’ve had to wrestle with and to get some clarity on yourself as you’ve tried to figure out what sort of business can work for you and the kind of life that you want to have. So I wish you the best with lead early, and I’m sure there are plenty of people out there who could benefit from working with someone like you. So it’s great that you’re offering this service to people out there. So thank you for all the work that you’re doing too. And thanks for coming on to the show. [00:45:58] Sadaf: Thank you Joseph. It was my pleasure. I really enjoyed chatting to you. 🎶 Interview Segment Music Credits Podington Bear – Button Mushrooms Trevor Kowalski – New Ambitions Podington Bear – Epiphany Alan Ellis – Myth Podington Bear – Bright White Podington Bear – Tarnish Morning Garden – Acoustic Chill Rand Aldo – Paramount Crowning

Have you ever fallen out of love with your job, even one you initially enjoyed? All of our careers go through ups and downs, and sometimes, we go on much-needed detours to clarify who we are and what we want our professional experiences to be. On Career Relaunch® podcast episode 105, Sally Chamley shares her journey of professional reinvention, going from a primary school teacher to a business school program coordinator. She shares the emotional challenges of leaving a beloved teaching career behind, the dynamics the transitioning into a new sector, and developing new skills along the way. We discuss how our work environments can have a huge impact on career satisfaction and the importance of recognizing when your job no longer aligns with your true self. During the Mental Fuel® segment, I also share practical advice about how to figure out if your job still aligns with who you are and who you want to be. 💡 Key Career Insights When you start to dislike my weekdays or if you feel unfulfilled and disconnected from yourself, it may be a sign you’re misplaced in your career. If you’re not engaged in professional activities or behaviors you feel align with who you are, at some point, you have to ask yourself how long you can continue living that way. You may feel your skills are not transferrable when transitioning into a new sector, but you will only know if this is true by trying out new things. You may be surprised how much your past experiences help you in seemingly unrelated roles. 💪🏼 Listener Challenge For this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I’d challenge you to take a moment to assess your current professional situation. Find a few minutes to consider how energized you feel by your work. Consider how happy you are with who you are. Decide whether you still feel like yourself. Take stock of where things stand right now. Consider whether your responses are satisfactory to you. If they are, great, you’re in good shape. But if your responses leave you feeling like you’re in the wrong place at the wrong time in your professional journey right now, consider exploring what else is out there. 📖 Episode Chapters 00:00:00 Overview 00:01:07 Introduction 00:02:44 Chat with Sally 00:38:57 Mental Fuel 00:45:29 Listener Challenge 00:46:27 Wrap Up 👤 About Sally Chamley Sally Chamley, originally from a Ohakune, New Zealand. After completing her Master’s degree at the Victoria University of Wellington, she spent six rewarding years as a primary school teacher. She eventually moved to London, inspired by the city’s opportunities and eager to expand her horizons. She initially continued teaching, but soon felt the pull to explore something else. Since 2024, she’s been working as a Programme Coordinator in the Finance suite at Imperial Business School, where we first crossed paths. 👍🏻 Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or Android so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Facebook and LinkedIn. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, and Bluesky. 💬 Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered in future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!  Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to Vista Social for ing the Career Relaunch® podcast Vista Social is a versatile, time-saving tool to manage all your social media s in one place. You can easily create, schedule, optimise, and publish content directly to multiple social media profiles from one simple dashboard. I actually use it myself to manage all my online profiles. Try Vista Social out for free right now at careerrelaunch.net/vista. 📄 Episode Transcript 03:05 Sally’s Current Role at Imperial Business School 05:05 Sally’s Background and Teaching Journey 08:01 Challenges and Rewards of Teaching 21:00 Transition to the UK 21:57 Starting a Teaching Career in the UK 22:40 Challenges of Being a Supply Teacher 26:17 Career Struggles and Realizations 28:45 Transitioning Out of Teaching 33:25 Landing a New Role at Imperial 34:41 Lessons Learned and Advice 38:53 Mental Fuel: Recognizing Who You Are [00:02:53] Sally: Morning. Thank you so much for having me. [00:02:56] Joseph: Well, let’s just start by talking about what’s happening in your world right now. What have you been focused on recently in your work and your life? Sally’s Current Role at Imperial Business School [00:03:05] Sally: So I’m currently working at Imperial Business School in the finance suite. I’m a program coordinator for the risk. management and financial engineering master’s program. So I have 170 students and I’m essentially the logistical expert for that master’s program. I look after those students and guide them through their degrees. I liaise with the module leaders and the teaching assistants and just make sure that all the classes are running smoothly, that students have guidance on their careers and that they’re getting their grades and their assignments all running smoothly. [00:03:40] Joseph: I guess we should say that we’re recording this toward the end of 2024 and so you’ve been in your role for a few months. How have things been going for you in of just your day-to-day life? How are you enjoying the role? [00:03:55] Sally: Yeah, really enjoying it. Imperial is such a great place to be working. I’m just constantly surrounded by real critical thinkers who are just developing their fields. It’s a really fast paced job with different times of the year creating different types of work and learning. We welcomed our new cohort of students in September. So that was full of first week of uni and different welcome days and team-building activities. So it’s been really special to bring on a new group of students. They’re currently in the autumn term and starting to get ready for exams. So you’re really into the workload at the moment and really busy with that. So it’s just constantly changing depending on the time of the year and what’s happening for those students. Personal Life and Travel [00:04:39] Joseph: What about you personally right now in your life that you’re devoting your energies to outside of work when you can find the time for it? [00:04:48] Sally: Well, I’m over in London and here for such a short amount of time, a couple of years. So travel is so big on the list. It’s how many countries can I hit before I have to go home? I’m off to Ireland next weekend. So really looking forward to that and just keep adding holidays. [00:05:05] Joseph: You haven’t always been a program coordinator at Imperial College Business School, Sally, and I should probably say upfront that you and I actually first crossed paths a few months ago. Because your team invited me to speak at a welcome event for your incoming students and we were chatting before I went up on stage and that’s when I first learned that before you ed Imperial, you used to be a primary school teacher. Sally’s Teaching Journey [00:05:28] Joseph: I want to hear all about that and go back to that chapter in your career. But before we talk about your time as a teacher, can you tell me a little bit about where you’re from? You mentioned home there. And also where you grew up. [00:05:40] Sally: I’m from New Zealand. I’m from a little town called Ohakune, which is in the middle of the North Island. Small town, 900 people of permanent residents there. And I wanted to be a teacher. I went to university to be a teacher. I did my undergrad and my Master’s degree to become a teacher. And then I was a teacher in Wellington for 6 years. For generally 5 and 6 year olds. [00:06:06] Joseph: It sounds like you very quickly decided you wanted to become a teacher. Childhood and Inspiration to Teach [00:06:10] Joseph: What do you about your childhood? And I’d be specifically interested to hear about what you used to enjoy doing as a child. Was teaching something that you I guess liked from a very early age? [00:06:22] Sally: Yeah, absolutely. I had some fantastic teachers growing up and being in such a small community. They were teachers that I knew outside of school as well. You know, they were my parents’ friends. And so they just provided such great relationships and really were able to build you up, not only through your English and your maths, but also through who you were as a person and how it provides so many life skills for you. And that was so inspiring as a child, knowing that. You can help me with my spelling, but also help me learn kindness and patience. And that’s something that I wanted to be able to do when I was growing up. [00:06:58] Joseph: At what point did you feel like you officially began your journey toward becoming a teacher? Was it actually when you began your studies, or did it occur to you earlier on when you were a child that, hey, this is what I want to do professionally? I know I like what teachers do, but this is what I actually want to become. [00:07:17] Sally: Probably in high school when you taking different subjects. I always took dance and being able to start leading different groups and being the person, I guess, in charge and empowering others became something really special. And so I knew at that point I wanted to go into some sort of teaching and it wasn’t until. My last year of high school that it was okay. Actually, I want to do primary school teaching and focus on those early milestones for Children. [00:07:48] Joseph: So you mentioned you studied to become a teacher. I, if I have this right, you studied education and psychology at Victoria University of Wellington. [00:07:57] Sally: Correct. [00:07:57] Joseph: Eventually did your Master’s in teaching and learning. Juliet1>Challenges and Rewards of Teaching [00:08:01] Joseph: Let’s talk a little bit about your time as a teacher. What year did you teach or was there a particular age group that you taught and how would you describe the makeup or the profile of the children in your class? [00:08:12] Sally: I generally taught the younger years. So I had five and six year olds. They were in their first and second year of school in New Zealand. We have such a rich culture of Māori and Pasifika. Our culture and our indigenous history is so wound up into our education. So that for me is such a huge part of teaching, teaching the Māori language and culture and the Kaupapa within the classroom. So I had amazing students. I had students from small communities that had rich family histories and just loved. Being at school, children who are five and six love everything. They love being at school. They love learning. And something that I loved about teaching was seeing those light bulb moments for students when they understand something, when they can do something by themselves. And that was what helped make you want to go to school every day. [00:09:03] Joseph: They got that age. Five to six is, is really special. As you may recall, Sally, I have a daughter named Juliet. And when you and I met, she was actually six at the time. She just recently turned seven. She’s now in year two of primary school. And I’ve volunteered at some of her school events just to help out. Like I’ve spoken in one of her classrooms before I’ve ed her field trips. And boy, do I have a huge respect for what teachers do for our kids every single day. My sister was a teacher in the Bronx for several years. As I was dropping her off this morning at school, I was thinking about what sort of questions to ask you about your life as a teacher, but before I get to mine over breakfast this morning, I asked Juliet if she had a question that she would want to ask you, and if you could indulge me for a moment. I’m just going to play this because I asked her, hey, if you could ask a teacher a question, what would it be? Because I’m about to speak to one. So I thought it might be fitting for a child who’s the same age as those kids you used to teach to ask the first question today. And then I’ll get to mine. Managing a Classroom [00:10:06] Juliet: My question is how do you stay on top of the class? And how do you get all the children to listen? [00:10:12] Joseph: And maybe we could take those one at a time. How do you stay on top of all the work that you need to do for the class? Because obviously you’re teaching and you’re managing the classroom all day. So how do you keep up with, I guess, like coursework planning and lesson planning? [00:10:29] Sally: Teaching is not for the fainthearted. It’s a big job with lots of different areas to it. You’ve got your time when you’re in with the children, between nine and three, where you’re doing teaching. You’re running assessments. You’re working one on one and building relationships. And then outside of those nine to three hours, you are doing everything else. You are planning all your lessons. You’re making resources. You’re attending staff meetings, team meetings. professional development, you’re meeting with parents, you’re creating the production, you’re working with the netball team, you have a hundred jobs as a teacher. And I guess you just have to manage your time really efficiently, understand that the different aspects of the day, you know, you fully commit to your in-classroom teaching during nine to three, and what can I get done before nine o’clock, what can I get done? After three o’clock, I would often be at school 7:30 to 5:30 to get work done. Coming in the weekends, I would bring work home with me. You’re busy, really busy, and you don’t have the break until the end of the academic year, where school finishes. You have about a week, you clear out your classroom, tie up all those loose things, and then you’ve got a couple of weeks off before you are there, two weeks before school starts getting ready to go again. [00:11:51] Joseph: Yeah, it’s a lot. Because I know you manage the students there now at Imperial who eventually want to work in primarily the banking or the finance sector. And so we always talk about the long hours that professionals like bankers work, but actually teachers are working very long hours because you’re working at school. And then after you come home from school, you got to plan for the next day at school. What about just keeping the class under control? I don’t think we talked about this, but like how many kids did you have? And how did you go about just maintaining order in the classroom day in and day out? [00:12:24] Sally: It really depends on the age group that you teach, but I would have anywhere between 23 to 30 children in a class at a time. And it would grow as the year went on, as students arrived to the school. But you put on your teaching persona, you have a very special teacher’s voice that only comes out when you’re in the classroom, you’ve got your teacher look that we all know. And I think something that comes down to it is building that relationship with the students and gaining their respect. And that’s so key to being able to get anything to happen in the classroom. You know, those students have to trust you and have to respect you to be able to want to listen. So I think that’s really important, but you do need your teacher voice and your teacher eyes as well. [00:13:10] Joseph: When I think about Juliet’s educational journey so far, as her parent observing her, I’ve seen how every single year of an educational journey is very formative, if you think about going all the way from preschool to year two, which is where she now is, and when I think about her time as a year one student, I feel like that year had an enormously awe inspiring. positive impact on her development academically, socially, physically. And I don’t know if this is just what happens at that age or her own natural development, but I suspect it was due in no small part. to the fact she had an absolutely phenomenal teacher who was actually in her first year of teaching when Juliet had her. So big shout out to Miss Hudson, whom we felt like really took the time to understand her, like her strengths, her struggles, and help her grow in a way. that aligned with who Juliet was and is. We felt like Miss Hudson really saw Juliet and made an effort to understand her and really every child in that class. And even now, Juliet still talks about Miss Hudson as being one of her favorite teachers. And you mentioned respect there, Sally. It’s not just because Juliet liked her. She did like her, but it’s also because Juliet really respected her and thought that she was effective at teaching and managing the class. And I saw this, I witnessed this firsthand when I saw her in action at the field trip, in front of class assemblies, and it just got me thinking, one of the things that really struck me about her year one teacher was that she managed to strike that balance between being liked and being respected by the children. How do you strike that balance? To what extent are those mutually exclusive? Or do they go hand-in-hand? [00:14:58] Sally: It’s so lovely to hear that your daughter’s teacher takes such the time to build that relationship because I think, you know, that’s so core to teaching philosophies is building that relationship. And you’re only going to get the best out of the student if you know them well. And they feel like you know them and they feel like you care about them. That’s the only way to get any teaching and learning done is actually by building that trust with them first. And a child knows. If you don’t like them, I think we see that in teaching when we can all think back to a teacher that we’ve had that hasn’t been particularly nice to you as a teacher that calls you out when actually it was your friend that was talking, you know, we can all think back to those kind of situations. So for the most part, I would say teachers probably love all their students, but I think you’ve got to understand that you’re also the adult in the classroom and you really need to make sure that. As the adult, you are being kind to everyone and giving everyone a chance. Misconceptions About Teaching [00:16:03] Joseph: Did you feel like there were any misconceptions out there about teaching that you either feel exist or maybe you even had yourself about what life is like as a teacher? [00:16:17] Sally: Absolutely. I think the first thing that people say to you when you say, Oh, I’m a teacher, they go, Oh, great. Easy. You babysit nine to three, and then you have so many holidays. That’s how teachers are seen. You’ve just got lots and lots of holidays. So that’s always a bit of a hard pill to swallow because you know how hard you work, and you know how hard the teaching community works, and you’re not often seen. As a professional, the skills that it takes to be a teacher is absolutely incredible. You’re building the milestones for future generations. And so that’s always quite hard to not be looked upon in that light from peers, from the government, from anyone around you. So that’s something that I think all teachers probably face. [00:17:04] Joseph: Why do you think that is, Sally? Why do you think that the professionals out there who were kind of entrusting our children with day in and day out are not perceived in the same way as the types of people that you cross paths with these days, who are more like people who go work in corporate offices, people who work on Canary Wharf. What do you attribute that discrepancy in perception to? [00:17:28] Sally: Sometimes I wonder that because everybody’s been to school. Everyone knows how school works. Everyone has been a student in school for so many years and seen how. school looked for them and just assume that it’s easy. You know, they were at school, so why can’t they be the teacher? It must be really easy to do. Sometimes I wonder that, especially when you hear from parents and they give you advice about, oh, well, we used to do it like this at school. Maybe you should do this. Have you tried this? And you’re sitting there going, actually, I’ve been to university for four years to learn how to do this. I’m constantly in professional development, learning new skills and how to teach this. Just because you did this one subject at school doesn’t mean that you have all the knowledge, you know, I’m working my best here [00:18:17] Joseph: before we talk about your transition to the UK. I did have one more question about your teaching, at least as a full time teacher, before we talk about your time as a supply teacher in the UK, you mentioned parents there. Is there anything in particular that you wished parents would understand about teachers? When they’re dropping off their kid in the morning, when they’re picking them up after school, when they’re coming to speak with you at parent teacher conferences, just anything out there that you kind of wished parents would understand a little bit better about teaching and what you’re doing with their children. [00:18:48] Sally: It’s hard because I understand where parents come from, you know, it’s their child, it’s their pride and joy. So they want absolutely the best for them. And I guess I would love for parents to know that I want that as well, that I am looking out for their child. I want the absolute best for them as well. And anything I’m doing, I’m trying to that child. Anything that they’re struggling with, I’m doing my absolute best to them through it. Yes, I might have 30 children in the class, but I care about every single one of them as much as the other. [00:19:20] Joseph: Just before we get to the transition, how would you describe this period of your teaching experience? So you spent about six years working full time as a teacher at Newlands Primary School. How did you find it? To what extent did you enjoy it or not? enjoy it. How would you describe your overall experience up until this point? [00:19:37] Sally: I loved it. I had a great time teaching at Newlands. I feel like I went through a couple of different stages while I was there. My first couple of years as a beginner teacher were full of learning and trial and error and spending all these years at university and finally being able to be the teacher. So it’s so exciting to have your own classroom and your own children. And then we went through the COVID years, and as with everyone in the world, the impact was absolutely huge. And the, the fallout from COVID, we were seeing such different children, you know, really different cohort with, you know, higher emotional needs, higher behavioral needs, struggling with anxiety and having to share the attention of teachers. missing out on some of those crucial years where early interventions can happen. So that felt like a very different type of teaching and period of schooling as well. And then after the fallout of COVID, it was just so different. So it feels like there were really great bits and there were harder bits, but overall, I did enjoy my teaching journey in New Zealand. [00:20:50] Joseph: So it sounds like things were going. Fine for you there. I know there were a lot of challenges with COVID and what that brought, but overall you enjoyed the nature of teaching. What triggered you to move to the UK all the way from New Zealand? [00:21:05] Sally: Moving to the UK or anywhere in the world is almost a rite of age in New Zealand. We call it our OEL overseas experience. And because New Zealand is just so far away from everything, it’s something that so many people do. Moving to London [00:21:18] Sally: All my friends have done it, both my parents have done it. So you get your two, three year visa, you pack your bags and you move to London. It’s just something that everyone does. You, you know, live the London life and you travel That’s what we’re here for. You know, New Zealand, it’s, if I got on a plane now, it would take me 30 plus hours to get home. So, you know, our closest other country is maybe three hours to Melbourne. So being able to pop to Spain for the weekend is absolutely incredible. So, you know, the travel, learning about different cultures and history is really amazing while being over here. Starting a Teaching Career in the UK [00:21:57] Joseph: And how did things transpire for you professionally once you got to the UK? [00:22:01] Sally: So, arrived in the UK, and after a couple of months of travel, I settled in London, and there’s always teaching work. You know, we are always having teaching shortages. So, I quite quickly became a supply teacher from September last year, so the start of the academic year, and quite quickly I was getting work. I think with the first couple of weeks of school, I was working three days a week, but by week three of the academic year, I was getting five days a week and I would get a call in the morning. This is the school. This is the age group. Can you go? And you would get on the train and head anywhere. [00:22:38] Joseph: Wow. Okay. Challenges of Being a Supply Teacher [00:22:40] Joseph: And so also known as substitute teachers in some countries, what are the main differences? Would you say between being a supply teacher compared to being a full-time teacher with a dedicated classroom of kids? [00:22:52] Sally: They are huge. The difference is absolutely huge. Being a supply teacher, you get the worst out of the children. You don’t have that relationship with them. So you don’t know. what works for them, what doesn’t work for them, how far you can and can’t push. They don’t trust you. You’re a stranger that’s turned up. So you’ve got to be really on. Your behavior management has to be top tier. You’re working through a plan that possibly a teacher has left you. Sometimes there’s no plan. So. You’re on all day long. You’re making decisions all day long. [00:23:27] Joseph: Wow. That sounds so stressful. So you’re telling me sometimes you’ll just show up in the classroom and you just go for those, whatever, six, seven hours and just try to keep the place from falling apart. Okay. Wow. [00:23:39] Sally: And there would have been days that I would turn up two minutes before class started and you’re thrown into a year six classroom and they’re going here, you need to teach this. And I’ve taught five year olds for a really long time. So all of a sudden I’ve gotta relearn how to do long division before I teach it to the students . So you’re often found in those kind of situations as well, having to relearn something before you teach it. Diverse Teaching Experiences [00:24:01] Joseph: You mentioned the type of school that you worked at in New Zealand, which was. I guess a smaller, more tighter knit community where you’re seeing the same people and kids every day. What were the types of schools you were working at while you were a supply teacher? Like could you give a sampling of the range of schools in the UK or London that you were assigned to? [00:24:20] Sally: I probably taught at about 30 different schools during my time as a supply teacher. I taught at schools right down by Heathrow airport where I walked through a paddock to get to the school. I taught in schools in the middle of Soho where walking past. You wouldn’t even know that it was a school because it’s in amongst all the other businesses. I taught reception, you know, three and four, five year olds. And I taught up to year eight in schools that had, you know, the high school students attached to the schools as well. So I taught in a huge range of schools, really different demographics and backgrounds. Some schools were You had nicer, lighter, easier days and some days were hard and there were times that I would go, okay, for my own well-being, I will not go back to that school again. [00:25:12] Joseph: Wow. [00:25:13] Sally: Yeah. I think if I teach is really hard, it’s very humbling. You know, I thought I was a great teacher with great behavior management, but. You’re really challenged by being a supply teacher. [00:25:26] Joseph: You mentioned that in New Zealand, you really loved the teaching. You mentioned here, you’re facing quite a different circumstance where you’re dealing with kids you don’t know necessarily, as you mentioned, you’re getting the worst out of children. How would you describe your experience as a teacher at this stage in your career? [00:25:43] Sally: First of all, it was probably the best thing I could have ever done for my Professional development, being at so many different schools, teaching so many different types of children in so many different subjects that I’d never taught before, was fantastic for my own development in my career, but it was hard, you know, something that’s so core to my teaching philosophies is that building of relationships. And so being in a different school every single day, I wasn’t able. To build those relationships and build that trust with students and work to get the best out of them. So I found that really hard. [00:26:17] Joseph: One of the things that we sometimes talk about on this show is the impact that your job can have on you, both in of your physical and emotional well being. Did you find that your experience at work was affecting you outside of work in any way? [00:26:33] Sally: I began to not enjoy my Monday to Friday, I wasn’t enjoying my teaching. I felt like I was turning into a teacher that I didn’t recognize. And, you know, I wasn’t building those relationships. I wasn’t doing the things that I loved when I was teaching back home. And so the weekends became too short. Sunday nights. You know, I started to feel a bit of anxiety. Oh, I’ve got to go to school on Monday. What kind of day am, am I in for? I struggled with the behaviour management. I found it to be quite arbitrary and quite punitive and I struggled with that at my core that I, You know, I saw lots of teachers yelling at students and that didn’t sit right with me. And so I struggled with that as well. And that affected my love and my want to be in the classroom. [00:27:31] Joseph: Yeah, it’s very interesting, Sally, because sometimes I’ll hear from people in their professional lives that they’re doing work that they no longer buy into. They’re being asked to do things or carry out or execute certain actions or plans that they either don’t believe in, or they don’t agree with. And I know that that’s a part of, I guess, every job to some extent, you got to do a little bit of that. But at what point did you feel like this was getting to a place where it wasn’t just something you didn’t like, but actually something that you felt you wanted to walk away from? [00:28:05] Sally: The start of the new year? When I got to January 2024 and, you know, I’d moved over here, I’d done a couple of months of travel. I’d found a flat and life was still exciting. Whereas I got to January and it was like, oh, this is going to be me for the entire duration of while I’m living in London. I’m not enjoying it. How am I going to see out the next two years of being here when I’m not enjoying my Monday to Friday? I kept teaching for another two months, but I think that was when it really set in that I don’t know if I can keep doing this because I’m just not enjoying my life over here. Transitioning Out of Teaching [00:28:45] Joseph: Let’s talk a little bit about your transition out of teaching then. What did you do when you realized that? What steps did you then realize you needed to take? [00:28:53] Sally: I made with a recruitment agency and, you know, I started to think, oh, what other things could I do? Maybe I need to update my CV and look into a different world. And so I went to this recruitment agency Australasian and just began to have a bit of a conversation with some of the coordinators there about other things could be out there for me, what skills could be transferable. And at that point, I had to put together a CV and change it from a teaching CV to a professional CV where no one cares how I teach my literacy program and, you know, starting to think, can I actually do anything else? And that’s when the confidence definitely took a dip that I only know how to do one thing. Can I actually do anything else? So that came up when I was starting to have to change over my CV. And then I was put forward for a temp role at Imperial and again, the confidence took a dip when I was practicing for my interview. Do I know how to do anything else that isn’t teaching? Why am I leaving teaching when I’ve, I’ve got work? I know what I’m doing and I can do it. And so it was quite a scary time. [00:30:09] Joseph: That confidence piece, Sally, I hear this a lot when people are making transitions because you’re going from what you Not only know, but you know, you can do reasonably well and to walk away from that and to kind of throw yourself into totally different industry. Were there any particular things you did to bolster your confidence? [00:30:29] Sally: It was changing the language that I used, you know, instead of saying that I had parent teacher interviews and I worked with parents and child psychologists and things like that. It was that I was working with stakeholders and I guess just learning what. Did transfer over and that some of those things that I am confident with within teaching happen in a professional world as well and I guess learning for myself that because I can do it here I can also replicate it in another place and be confident about that. [00:31:06] Joseph: As you began to go through this process of reworking your cv and the motions of explaining. It sounds like you actually did enjoy your time at one point teaching back in New Zealand and being a teacher was something you’d wanted to do even as a child. Putting aside the practicalities of making this pivot, was there anything else that was particularly hard about the idea of moving away from school? [00:31:36] Sally: I think transitioning from teaching brought on a process of grief that I guess I still face every now and then here, you know, teaching was something that I wanted to do, that my heart was set on, that I studied to do and I loved it. And it was almost a grieving process of falling out of love with teaching. You know, it was something that I always wanted to do and I wasn’t feeling fulfilled and ionate by it anymore. And that was quite hard to have to face and. Sometimes, even though I’m loving working where I am now, I still think back to teaching and I still miss certain parts of it and still grieve certain parts of it. So that’s been an ongoing process that I guess I wasn’t expecting. [00:32:27] Joseph: I guess grief is something that’s an important part of walking away from anything. We can find ways to power through it and carry on with our day-to-day lives, but that grief doesn’t just go away. And it sounds like you came out of a really tough period of teaching and at the same time you once did and maybe even still do have a part of you that really loved it. Especially when you think back to those earlier years. So feeling grief is understandable because it’s almost like you’re letting go of something that was once important to you and a part of not only your life, but who you were and still are today. And I think our past is something that. remains on all of our minds, even as we grow into another chapter in our careers and lives. Speaking of which, how did you eventually land your full time role there at Imperial? Landing a New Role at Imperial [00:33:25] Sally: So I was hired as a six week temp to be a program coordinator while someone else was Of doing a secondment and so I started working at Imperial and it was a big role to learn. It was using things like Excel, which I wasn’t having to use teaching. It was all of those kind of things. I was having to learn office life, the way that offices run, the way that you email, things like that were all very new to me. And so I worked there for about six weeks before. The job was possible to go permanent. And so at that point I had to reapply and re interview, and I felt better and worse about going for it then because I, you know, I’d built the confidence. I’d done this job for six weeks. Surely I can do it permanently. I’ve learned all these skills, but it was also harder in the sense that now I, if I didn’t get the job, I knew what I was missing out on. And I. Knew what I had to go back to. I had to go back to that teaching life and my wellbeing of what it was while I was teaching. So I wanted the permanent job. I was loving working at Imperial and I wanted to stay there. Lessons Learned and Advice [00:34:41] Joseph: The last thing I want to talk about before we wrap up here, Sally, or just a few of the lessons you’ve learned along the way of your career change journey. And I know that you were. Mentioning before some aspects around being concerned about your confidence, making the transition and knowing what you know now, what’s something that you’ve learned about yourself and the idea of being able to make a transition? [00:35:06] Sally: I’ve definitely learned that. First of all, I can do it and that I need to be open to those things. I think as teachers, we put ourself in a little bubble that teaching is all we can do. But when I reflect on my teaching time now, and I think about all the skills that I learned as a teacher and how I use them every single day at my time at Imperial, you know, I learned that actually. There were so many amazing things that I was able to do and that I’m only able to do in my job now because of my teaching background and actually those are the best things that I’ve been able to bring across that although I might have lacked the confidence initially by just opening my mind and saying, let’s dive in, let’s give it a try, life is so much better. I’m enjoying my life in London now, I look forward to going to work, so you don’t know unless you try and I’m so glad that I did. [00:36:01] Joseph: If you could share some advice with your younger self about your transition from New Zealand to the UK, or going from teaching to program management, what advice might you share with younger Sally? [00:36:15] Sally: Take on any opportunity that comes your way. Say yes, because you never know what could come of it. There’s So many amazing things out there that you could be doing and you’ve got to jump in with two feet. [00:36:27] Joseph: And the last question for you here. If somebody else out there is thinking about making a career transition or even making a major career change and they’re on the cusp of it, but kind of struggling to make that next move. Is there something that you wished they would know about the process of transitions that you now know? [00:36:45] Sally: Your skills that you have, you know, stepping back and looking at them and how actually they transfer into the world and to know that those skills are transferable, that you might feel like you’re pinholed into one position, but actually they can be just as useful in another role and you won’t know unless you try and if it doesn’t work, that’s fine. You gave it a go and you can go back to what you were doing. But you know, it could absolutely change your life. So why not give it a try? [00:37:14] Joseph: Thank you so much. Sally, for taking us through your time as a teacher and explaining your transition, not only geographically, but also professionally. I said this before, I’ll say it again. I think what teachers do out there is immeasurably invaluable to our children and the world. So as a parent myself, really appreciate the work that you have done for kids and also all the teachers out there, what they do for our children. So best of luck with your program management role there at Imperial. I’m sure we’ll cross paths again in the near future, and I hope you have a good year ahead. Thanks for coming onto the show. [00:37:51] Sally: Lovely. Thank you so much for having me. 🎶 Interview Segment Music Credits Podington Bear – Trinity Alps Podington Bear – Puppy Music_for_video – Sedative Podington Bear – Loam Podington Bear – Floating Podington Bear – Curious Process Podington Bear – Blue Folk_Acoustic – May

Curiosity is something we’re all born with as humans. Most of us come into this world with an immense amount of curiosity. If you ever watch young children around a new set of toys, they’ll excitedly try them all out. Similarly, during the early stages of our careers, we’re thirsty to explore, absorb, and learn as much as we can on the job. However, over time, that curiosity can get dampened and even shut down as a result of work pressures, life realities, or societal expectations around how we should be spending our professional time. Keeping your curiosity alive is one way to open new doors throughout your career. In episode 104 of the Career Relaunch® podcast, Laura McIntyre, a professional opera singer turned business change consultant at Deloitte, describes her journey of going from the world of performing arts to the corporate world of management consulting. She explains why she decided to walk away from singing, how she managed her transition while making ends meet, and what steps she took to eventually land her job at one of the world’s leading professional services firms. After our chat, I’ll also share some thoughts on the importance of remaining curious in your career during the Mental Fuel® segment. 💭 Key Career Change Insights Sometimes, your career puts immense amounts of pressure on you in ways you don’t fully until you hit an emotional or physical limit. When you cross that threshold, you owe it to yourself to recalibrate and reassess where to take your career. Transitions are inevitably messy, often resulting in rejection and setbacks that may lead you to question your original decision to leave your former career behind. Understand that transitions take time, and the ups and downs are par for the course. With enough dedication, exploration, and proactive connection-building, you can increase your chances of eventually identifying and landing a role that better aligns with your interests, skills, and lifestyle. 📚 Resources Mentioned Read this CareerShifters article featuring an interview with Laura where she describes her career journey in more detail. During the Mental Fuel® segment, I referred to Ethan Mollick’s book Co-Intelligence which radically reshaped my views on AI’s role in our work. 💪🏼 Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I talked about dedicating a few minutes this week to just learning something entirely new that you find intriguing right now. You could explore an emerging technology affecting your industry. Or learn more about a skill that someone you ire possesses. Or listen to a podcast episode about a topic that you’re curious about. What step will you take to channel your curiosity in your career? 📖 Episode Chapters 00:00:00 Overview 00:01:07 Introduction 00:03:18 Chat with Laura 00:44:27 Mental Fuel 00:50:54 Listener Challenge 00:51:49 Wrap Up 👤 About Laura McIntyre Laura McIntyre is a business transformation consultant at Deloitte focused on connecting people with solutions and empowering them to achieve their personal and professional aspirations. Originally from Lithuania, Laura began her career as a professional opera singer performing in the UK, , and other European countries. In her spare time, Laura enjoys horseback riding🏇🏼 and working out at the gym💪🏼. You can follow Laura on Instagram and LinkedIn, and check out other insights she’s collecting around career transitions for her Path Changer initiative on Instagram and YouTube. 👍🏻 Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review: I’d appreciate you leaving a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, YouTube Music, or Android to get each new episode on your device automatically. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph Liu on most major social media platforms.  Connect with Joseph 💬 Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered in future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners and aim to respond to every single voicemail I receive.  Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! 🙏🏻 Thanks to Stubble & Co for ing the Career Relaunch® podcast Thanks to Stubble & Co for ing this episode of the Career Relaunch® podcast. Crafted for the modern urban professional, Stubble & Co combines British design and practical functionality, offering stylish, durable, and high-quality bags made from recycled materials, perfect for work and travels. Check out their full range of products at careerrelaunch.net/stubble. 🎵 Interview Segment Music Credits Nettson – Last Promise Podington Bear – Stars Are Out Lama House – Sola Ventus Hushed – Sibyl Rand Aldo – Paramount Crowning Podington Bear – Trinity Alps Infraction – Nature 📄 Episode Transcript Laura: [00:00:00] Most inventions or innovation has happened because of someone being curious. We never should underestimate curiosity. It’s one of the best things that you can have in your back pocket, and I think it’s going to serve anyone well. Joseph: [00:00:16] Welcome to the Career Relaunch® podcast focused on helping you reinvent your career. My name is Joseph Liu, and I’m here to help you gain the clarity, confidence and courage to overcome the challenges of making changes to your career so you can do more meaningful work and enjoy your professional life. In each episode, I feature people who have stepped off the beaten path to reinvent their careers. We talk through their unique personal journeys, the challenges they overcame, and the lessons they learned along the way to help you understand what it takes to relaunch your own career. Today, my guest is going to share her story of going from an opera singer to a management consultant focused on business transformation. We’ll discuss the importance of keeping an open mind and the hidden upside of uncertain transitions afterwards. During today’s Mental Fuel®, I’ll talk about the role curiosity plays in uncovering career opportunities. Joseph: [00:01:10] Curiosity is something we’re all born with as humans. Most of us come into this world with an immense amount of it. If you ever watch young children around a new set of toys, they’ll excitedly try them out. Similarly, during the earlier stages of our careers, we’re thirsty to explore, absorb, and learn as much as we can on the job. But over time, that curiosity can get dampened and even shut down because of work pressures, life realities, or societal expectations around how we should be spending our professional time. But keeping your curiosity alive is one way to open new doors throughout your career, and we’re going to talk more about this right now. Joseph: [00:01:52] Today, I’m speaking with Laura McIntyre, a business transformation consultant focused on connecting people with solutions and empowering them to achieve their personal and professional aspirations. Originally from Lithuania, Lora began her career as a professional opera singer, performing in the UK, and other European countries. After realizing her health and emotional well-being were taking a hit from the relentless pressures of performing, Lora decided to take a break from singing and explore some other career paths. She is now a consultant at Deloitte, one of the world’s leading professional services firms, where she focuses on human capital consulting, digital transformation and change management. Now, I first met Lora when she reached out to me on Instagram to discuss the topic of personal branding. We later met up in London to collaborate on one of her projects focused on career change, and we’ve stayed in touch since. Joseph: [00:02:42] Coincidentally, my neighbor who lives right next door to us is actually a professional singer herself. But this conversation with Lora was really my first time getting a deeper, behind the scenes glimpse into what goes into professional opera singing. I think you’re really going to enjoy hearing how Laura managed to pull off her radical career change, going from performing in front of audiences to now working in the corporate world. You can get all the show notes from today’s conversation at Career Relaunch Net 104. Laura spoke with me from Kent, not too far from where I’m based myself here in the UK. Joseph: [00:03:19] Okay, Laura, welcome to the Career Relaunch podcast. Great to see you again and welcome to the show. Laura: [00:03:25] Thank you so much. I’m really glad to be here and happy to see you again. Joseph: [00:03:29] I want to talk with you today, Laura, about your transition from opera singing to consulting, why you left that behind, and also your career transition. But I would love to just start and get a glimpse into what you’re focused on right now. Can you just tell me a little bit about what you’ve been devoting your energy to in your personal and professional life lately? Laura: [00:03:51] In my professional life, I’ve been devoting my time and my energy to my career as a management consultant. So just working on different projects. Really enjoying it, experiencing, working with different teams. I work predominantly across the public sector. Really finding that interesting. Lots of very challenging situations that I have an opportunity to dive into and my clients in. It’s a really diverse kind of portfolio of the work that I do. And yeah, I’m just finding it really fun at the moment and in my free time. I’ve recently started my gym journey, so I’m becoming an avid gym goer, so I’m devoting a lot of energy and time into that. And also I’m trying to keep up with my horse-riding skills as well. Joseph: [00:04:39] Oh wow. Okay. What kind of horse-riding do you do exactly? Laura: [00:04:43] I suppose it’s called just English riding. Joseph: [00:04:47] Are you jumping over the hurdles? I don’t know the exact terminology. Laura: [00:04:51] A little bit. I’m not quite there yet, but I’m taking some lessons and doing some kind of hacking out into the English countryside as well. Joseph: [00:05:00] And on your LinkedIn profile, Laura, now, I think your jobs title says that you are a business change consultant at Deloitte, and I know that this term consultant and management consultant, it floats around out there. And it’s kind of this, to the outsider, a bit of a black box. Can you just share a snapshot of projects and clients you currently work with? Laura: [00:05:23] I mean, this is actually a really difficult question because really no one knows what a consultant does, right? I believe even the consultants themselves sometimes don’t know what we do. But to keep it neat and short, I predominantly go in to help clients with any challenges related to people as their businesses or their organizations are going through some sort of transformation. So, for example, whether that would be a technology transformation, whether that would be a people-related, culture-related transformation, whether that would be a strategic transformation, whatever it is at the heart of every transformation, there are people. And my focus predominantly within management consultancy is kind of the human capital side of things. It’s kind of a term, I suppose. Used to talk about people as a resource and kind of having that people-centered, human-centered approach to transformation. And within that, one of my key interest areas is business change. Specifically in our organization, we tend to think about professionals in a kind of a T-shaped form, expertise on kind of a high level, broad library of various skills and knowledge. But then we are encouraged to have kind of that t letter going downwards into kind of one key area that you’re perhaps really ionate about, or maybe where you’re kind of greatest talent lies in. So that’s why on my LinkedIn profile I call myself a business change kind of specialist within Deloitte. Joseph: [00:06:59] You haven’t always been a human capital consultant focused on business change and business transformation. At Deloitte, you were a professional opera singer. You performed in the UK, and other European countries, I think for about seven years, if I have that correct. Before we get to that though, Laura, I’d love to just go back in time a little bit further. And can you just tell me a little bit about you personally? Where did you grow up and what can you being interested in as a kid? Laura: [00:07:32] When I was growing up, music was always very close to our family. My mum, was a choir conductor for a while and then she transitioned into working in school as a music teacher. So I ended up going to a lot of her rehearsals, and music was always quite close to my heart. My dad was also a musician, kind of more towards the jazz side of things. So he was also a composer and played in a band. So I suppose music was always running in the family. And then from a very early age, I started playing some instruments and I ended up going to sort of like an after-school club, but like an after-school where you are taught various music subjects like music, history, solfeggio, as well as playing an instrument of your choice. And at the time, the instrument of choice was a piano, predominantly because there was a piano in the house already. So that became kind of the instrument of choice. So I did that for many, many years, pretty much all the way up to when I graduated from school. Joseph: [00:08:40] You played piano? Laura: [00:08:42] Yeah, I played piano for a while, and I sang in various kind of bits and bobs choirs and  ensembles in school as well. So to be honest, a lot of my childhood and my kind of young years were spent doing music. Joseph: [00:08:59] And can you remind me, Laura, where you grew up? Laura: [00:09:02] I grew up in Lithuania. I’m a girl from the coast, so I grew up in a city called Klaipėda, and that’s a port. So we were very close to the beach and wonderful forests. It’s a very beautiful part of the country. Joseph: [00:09:19] I’m sorry I’m not that familiar with Lithuania just because I’ve never been there myself. Is music something that’s quite well embraced in the education system in Lithuania? Is it encouraged? Is it part of the typical academic curriculum there? Laura: [00:09:36] At least back in my days, it was part of the general curriculum. You would have a music lesson where you would be encouraged to learn about different sorts of music composers, a little bit of music history, kind of that whole rounded individual type of thing. So not necessarily going too deep, but it has always been encouraged. And every school has or at least used to have various opportunities for children and young adults to get involved in various music activities, bands, orchestras, choirs kind of pursue that ion. The one thing that’s really good, or at least used to be, I keep saying, used to be because I feel like I’m so far removed from it right now. So I kind of really speak into the situation with 100% certainty. But we used to have music schools that were sort of after club, but they offered quite serious music activities for children and for young adults to pursue various instruments and some of the other things that are already mentioned that I was able to learn as well. And it was quite a serious form of education, very well recognized across the country. We used to have exams, I think twice a year, so it’s quite a serious approach to it. The wonderful thing about that, is that it’s government funded and parents don’t have to spend loads and loads of money, which enabled a lot of children from less privileged families to attend as well, because the fee was very, almost like symbolic fee. The majority of the costs were covered by the government. So there’s really an encouragement from the government to pursue these types of careers. Same with the universities. There are a lot of free spots or government-funded spots for talented individuals to apply for. Joseph: [00:11:21] So it sounds like this was a pretty big part of your upbringing. At what point did you decide that, hey, I might want to do this professionally? Like, do you when that occurred to you that this could actually become a career for you? Laura: [00:11:35] I kind of fell into it. I did a couple of competitions in my last two years in school. There were sort of singing competitions where I competed. I won a couple of awards, and a lot of the was that my voice would be really suited for classical music and that I should really give it a go, so the was really positive. I kind of enjoyed doing it. I didn’t really have another thing that I was really settled on pursuing as like a very serious career. So when I was graduating from school, I thought, well, why not? Let’s give it a go. So I applied to a university audition type of thing. I did that and I got the spot and I thought, well, great, let’s give it a go. And that’s where it all started. Joseph: [00:12:26] And for somebody maybe who isn’t familiar with the different types of opera singing paths, was there a particular range and type of performance that you eventually ended up focusing on? Laura: [00:12:37] So I think in the early years they avoided trying to put you in a box because when you’re still really young, your voice continues to form up until you’re probably about 25, I think. So it continually grows together with you and it matures. But throughout your journey, you start falling into your own kind of area of you could call it vocal expertise, but yes, it’s something to do with the range, the colour of your voice, kind of where the quality of your sound really lies. And at the time I was considered to be a mezzo-soprano, which is kind of the mid-range vocal kind of performance. Joseph: [00:13:18] And what was your life like as a professional opera singer? Can you give a glimpse into the types of shows or performances that you recall being a part of? Laura: [00:13:28] I think my early career was very much mixed with studying, so I was still kind of a full-time uni student doing all the music lessons and singing classes and exams, and at the same time I applied or auditioned for a couple of roles, and then the National Opera House in Lithuania, and I got the roles. So I was often kind of working and studying at the same time. So I had, I think maybe up to 5 or 6 shows a year. It wasn’t much, but it was just the right amount as kind of a starting singer and to be honest, all the way throughout my career, studying and working kind of always went hand in hand because I think in singing you can rarely walk away from kind of singing lessons. You continually require that improvement. It’s a little bit similar, I suppose, to sports. You always stay connected to your coach. You never really stop learning, you never really stop improving. It always has been connected. So after I did my undergrad studies in Lithuania, I then applied for a kind of. It’s called like a post-grad program in London. And that’s how I arrived here in the UK. So I did a couple of years of that in the Royal Academy of Music here in London. Some of the places that I used to perform the most was Opera Holland Park. They did a lot of kind of seasonal shows, so that was one of my very frequent places that I went to. I still had contracts back home in Lithuania, so I traveled between here and there. Then I spent a year in the National Opera Studio, which created lots of opportunities for me to perform with them on different stages in Leeds, and in London as well. And then I got a contract with Scottish Opera, and I spent about nine months living and working in Glasgow, while at the same time performing in , as I had a small contract in as well. So we traveled lots of cities and with one of the productions it was Vichy, Versailles, and Lyon. Joseph: [00:15:39] How did things progress for you compared to maybe how you envisioned them transpiring for you? Like, if you think about the entry into the world of opera singing compared to the actual experience, was it what you expected? Was it different from what you expected? How would you describe your overall experience as an opera singer? Laura: [00:15:59] Even though the world is so broad and there seems to be space for everyone, it’s quite a competitive space. It can be competitive in a good way, and someone perhaps critiques what you do. And that’s what the whole industry is built on, is on critiquing, reading reviews and someone critiquing your performance. Someone critiquing, not necessarily with bad intentions, but maybe they want to help you out. Maybe they want you to improve. And so I think very early on, I started noticing that it’s really difficult to separate what you do from what you are. And therefore, whenever someone critiques what you do, it really affects how you feel about who you are. And that, I guess, was the more tough side of that particular career. It has many positives, but it also has a few negatives, which I think I ignored for as long as I could. And then I suppose I had to come to a realization that perhaps I’m not necessarily the right type of person to enjoy this type of career. Joseph: [00:17:05] Was there a particular moment when it dawned on you that you just had to make a change and that this was not sustainable for you? Laura: [00:17:14] So one of the things that singers will often experience is something that comes with the job is, you know, sometimes you fall sick. Things happen to your voice. It becomes way more sensitive because you’re using it as an instrument. So it’s naturally way more sensitive. And I’ve noticed that when I stopped singing, I stopped being sick, which is miraculous. But I used to get colds all the time, and I kind of struggled with acid reflux as well. And perhaps I still get some of it now, but it’s almost like I don’t notice it anymore. Or maybe I get less of it as well because I’m not using my voice in that capacity. It’s not as demanding on my voice kind of day-to-day talking. So my last year was quite a difficult one. I fell into kind of this vicious cycle of you’re sick and then therefore you’re anxious because when you’re sick, you cannot perform. If you don’t perform, you lose money because you’re not paid. If you’re not paid for a long time, you can’t cover your bills. And they can also cancel your contracts because if you’ve been sick for a long time, the show must go on. It seems unfair, but it’s also really fair. It’s a business. They can’t just wait for you forever. So you kind of get into that cycle of you’re sick and therefore you’re anxious, but then also you’re sick because you’re anxious. Laura: [00:18:35] So I found myself in this continuous loop. And I think there came a time when my voice was not doing very well. I was determined to push through, and that was one of the biggest mistakes I made because I continued pushing through and I think the anxiety really got out of hand. At one point I used to wake up, , in the middle of the night like 3 a.m., just to check if I still have a voice, because any moment it could be gone. And I felt really, really anxious, very, very stressed. Which obviously didn’t help my sickness either. So it only created more acid reflux, kind of more hardship and performance. And what started happening was that sometimes I started losing my voice during a performance then added the trauma of hundreds of people looking at you while you’re losing your voice. So all of these things started piling up, and I think I was really struggling to deal with it, like on a mental level. And I think at that point I decided I need to just take a break. So it wasn’t like I decided I need to change careers. I think at that point I understood that I have to step away from it, and it was a huge hit for pride because suddenly you feel like you failed. Laura: [00:19:48] You failed at your own job, you failed as a performer, you failed as a singer. And you know the constant thoughts of what are other people going to say? And often people in the industry would say, well, you know, you failed because you didn’t have a good technique or, you know, you failed because of x, y, z. So everyone has an opinion to offer. And at that point in time, I decided I’m going to take a break. I’m going to take it slow, continue taking the lessons and just use this time to recover. What happened during that period was I very quickly realized that the recovery needed to happen, not in my voice. So there was nothing wrong with my voice. There was nothing wrong with my body. There was no physical issue. The issue was a mental issue. I think over that really stressful year, I built a lot of trauma in my head, which started really inhibiting kind of my singing, and I think I faced a choice at that point. How much time and how much of my life I’m willing to invest into this healing journey, because it’s not that difficult to heal from physical trauma. It’s much more difficult. It’s not necessarily much more difficult, but it’s less predictable. Healing from kind of mental trauma or like a psychological trauma. Joseph: [00:21:18] Yeah, I think that’s what makes these sorts of transitions so unsettling because there’s not a clear start and end. What you just mentioned about your physical side. You kind of know when you’ve physically gotten better from an injury or something. But yeah, the psychological and emotional side of of making a transition or having come out of a really difficult situation is a lot less tangible. And so it’s it’s just kind of harder to wrestle with. And then that creates more anxiety. Laura: [00:21:46] Exactly. It’s really difficult. I think anxiety is one of the most difficult things to recover from because you’re so invested in your own healing journey. You know, the stakes are high. You must recover from this, and that only creates more anxiety. So it’s almost like you have to completely walk away from it in order to completely heal. Because if you keep on pushing yourself with the pressure of I must heal from this, it just doesn’t work that way. Or at least it didn’t work that way for me. So what I did, was I stepped away from it all and then found myself in a funny predicament of having cancelled all my contracts. I had no income. Joseph: [00:22:24] Well, that’d be really interesting to talk about that now, Laura, this transition of yours. So it sounds like you need to take a step back. You’re not sure if it’s going to be a permanent step away, or just kind of a momentary pause. London is not. Or the UK in general is not a cheap place to live, so obviously you had to make ends meet. What did you do? Like what kind of jobs did you apply to? And I’d also be curious what sort of roles you took on. Maybe like temporary jobs you had to take on to make ends meet. Laura: [00:22:52] So during that time, I obviously thought, you know, I have to pay my bills, I need to find a job. So I opened all the, you know, what they call the websites with all the job opportunities. And I started scrolling. It was a really discouraging time as well, because all I had in my education, kind of in my little portfolio was music studies. I barely had any other work experience. I’ve only done music, which at the time seemed really not applicable to anything else. So what I started is my application journey applying to loads and loads of different jobs. I really was aiming low and when I say low, I mean where the requirements were very basic. So not necessarily that they’re bad jobs, but where the requirements are completely basic, like washing the dishes. Joseph: [00:23:46] Oh wow. Laura: [00:23:47] The only requirement you need to have is usually the ability to work in the UK. And I don’t even think they require anything else. They usually just say as long as you can stand and you’re physically fit to stand there all day and wash the dishes, we’re good. So I applied for jobs like that, catering, waitressing, jobs. So where the kind of the level of requirements for the entry-level was pretty basic because I really saw myself as someone who doesn’t have anything else to offer regardless. And I just thought, well, that’s going to be easy to get one. I just thought anyone could get this. I think I applied to close to maybe 80 jobs over the course of about four months. I was rejected by all of them. Joseph: [00:24:31] Oh, wow. Laura: [00:24:32] Either didn’t hear back or was rejected. And I think progressively my applications were just going down. Down to like just any kind of job will do. If you pay me, I’ll work. Joseph: [00:24:44] So for 3 or 4 months here, you’re applying to whatever 80 jobs and you’re getting either no response or negative response, and oh wow. Okay. And like what was running through your head at that time? Were you thinking go back to opera? Or was that not . . . Laura: [00:24:59] Well, that wasn’t an option either, because I wasn’t in a place to actually do anything with my voice either. I was really surprised and like, puzzled because I thought, I don’t know, why doesn’t anyone want me? And I thought, well, surely I can wash the dishes. And I I called my mum and she said, how is it going? And I said, well, it’s not going very well. I said I kept on either hearing negative responses or not hearing back at all. So basically nothing happened. My mom said something quite profound, quite unusual to what she would normally say as well. She said, you know, this is really strange. I think it’s because life is about to offer something very different to you, and it’s preventing you from getting anything else, because there is a plan in place and there’s a job for you that’s waiting for you. And it’s not any of these jobs. So it’s basically the life itself that is preventing you from getting it. And I thought, whoa, that’s a really strange thing for my mom to say. She doesn’t normally speak like that, but I think it encouraged me. And what happened then was that maybe a couple of weeks later, I ran into someone who I knew and they sort of asked, as usual, how is this singing going? And I said, well, it’s not going very well. Laura: [00:26:29] I kind of paused everything there. And I’m actually now looking for any kind of job because I need to kind of sustain myself. And the person looked at me and he said, oh, well, I know someone who is looking for people like they have a business and they’re constantly looking for new people to . And in my head, I thought, oh, business. I really don’t know anything about business. I’m definitely not a suitable candidate. But out of kind of politeness, I said, yes, of course, I’ll connect with them, I’ll reach out to them. And I did, and they told me about their business. They told me they have. They sent me a list of different roles that they have. I looked at all of them and I obviously thought, well, this is I can’t do any of this. I know nothing about business. I know nothing about any of these roles. The one thing I spotted was a graduate position. Joseph: [00:27:22] Is this the customer service position? Laura: [00:27:24] Yes. And I reached out back and I said, well, for a graduate position, what’s the time period for that graduate in of I graduated many, many years ago? Am I still, you know, could I still be a candidate? And the guy said, yes. Why not? And I said, okay, I did. And I said, does it matter where I graduated from? And they were like, no, it doesn’t matter. Oh, okay. Maybe it doesn’t matter though. And I applied and the position that I applied for was customer services because again, I thought, I don’t have much experience with any other things, but I do have experience with people. So I thought, that’s what I’m going to hang on to. And I applied and I got the job. Joseph: [00:28:14] And how did that go for you? I think you spent a few years doing that. It sounds like you went from a place where you felt like you didn’t have, I guess, the formalized qualifications to take on that role. But when you actually got into the role, what was your experience there like? Laura: [00:28:28] It was a really good experience, I think. I did not expect to enjoy it as much as I did, and that is one of the reasons why I never got back to singing. I just really enjoyed the whole corporate environment and client services was a very broad role. It offered a lot of variety, and lots of people . I enjoyed so much learning about business, what they do, kind of the whole corporate side of things. Really, really loved it. I think I did that for about a year, and then because it was a small organization, kind of almost like a startup, that was going through a lot of restructuring, and they kind of kept on changing their shape. So they kept moving me kind of around different roles. So I got to experience a lot. I was offered a role as an analyst, a data analyst. And I thought, well, that’s interesting, why not? And basically from starting from customer services. Associate moved my way up through data analysts, insight analyst into a consultant. Joseph: [00:29:31] And then that takes us to the consulting chapter of your career, which is what I’m hoping to talk with you about now. You climb all the way up to becoming a strategy consultant, and then eventually you would make it to Deloitte. I was looking into the acceptance rates of applicants at Deloitte, and according to the Cambridge consultant, it’s about 4%. Now, I’m not sure how precise that figure is, but it’s very well known in the corporate world that landing a job at Deloitte or any of the big four professional firms, Deloitte or Ernst and Young or PwC or KPMG, it’s really competitive to get into these places. As someone who didn’t–at least before this latest role that you just described before that–didn’t have a formalized business background, how did you approach landing a job at Deloitte? Laura: [00:30:17] Well, I’m surprised now too! I didn’t know these rates! Laura: [00:30:20] Yeah. It’s competitive. You make me surprised now too! Joseph: [00:30:23] Yeah, you made it. Laura: [00:30:25] Oh my goodness. Feeding my imposter syndrome. Joseph: [00:30:29] I work with a lot of business schools, and I know that consulting is one of the esteemed target industries that a lot of business students try to get into. There’s banking, there’s consulting. Those are two of the most attractive and also the most competitive. And so a lot of people don’t make it. And a lot of people wonder, how do you land a job at one of these big four firms or one of the big three firms? So yeah, I’m just curious how you did it. Laura: [00:30:54] I think a lot of it also has to do with being at the right place at the right time. I think we cannot discredit that. I know that things right now are really, really tough within the industry. So it really depends on the time and the place. What’s the environment like? What’s the industry like? It’s not so much to do with what you bring. Sometimes it’s also being able to ride the tide. But basically what happened in my previous job, and I’m forever grateful to them for the opportunities that they provided me with. I had so many opportunities just to learn on the job, and I think what really helped is keeping that why not attitude. Some of the roles I was quite certain at the time, this is not going to be my forever role. I don’t think this is my thing, but I used that time to kind of take as much as I can from that role, and from the responsibilities that I was given. Some of them I did not thoroughly enjoy, but I think I tried to keep an attitude of what can I learn from this and kind of put in my little library of skills. One thing that did help was during Covid. While I always say while other people were baking bread and kind of everyone found. Laura: [00:32:13] Everyone found their own thing . . . Joseph: [00:32:14] I was not one those people . . . Laura: [00:32:15] Lots of people were. Laura: [00:32:16] And I have nothing against people who bake bread. I’m just really bad baker. That’s the true reason behind it. I decided that I also needed to do something, you know, with my time, even though I was still full-time working because our organization was working kind of in the digital space. So we were not really affected by the whole kind of work from home. What I did was I decided to do a little like a diploma. It’s not a university, it’s not a college. It’s not any of those. It’s just like a certification. But it’s a full-year course with lots of assignments and it’s still quite pretty in-depth. The topic that I chose was actually Human Resources, even though I did not necessarily have a desire to become a human resources specialist. But I kept that ion for people and business because I never had that true background in business. After reading kind of the brochure of that certificate, I really enjoyed what they were outlining. They were kind of really going on that human-centered approach to how to run an organization through people. And I just loved it. And I thought, why not? So that’s the thing that I did within Covid, which I think also helped me land the job at Deloitte because I was able to offer almost a niche expertise in addition to my more general consulting skills. I think the other thing that does help is if you know someone within the organization, it can really help you almost tailor not necessarily lie or pretend, but tailor your kind of focus of your application to what really matters to the organization as well. So I was kind of blessed to have some people on the inside who told me a little bit about the organization. They recommended the organization as a good organization to work for. Joseph: [00:34:08] These are just. Joseph: [00:34:08] People in your professional circle network. Okay. Laura: [00:34:12] Yeah. So a couple of people in my network were in the organization. So that really helped because it really gave me an insight into the application process, understanding what the priorities for the business, and what can I speak into. And it really helped me to also then tailor my CV, tailor my application, and even tailor my interview approach to make sure that when I come in and I speak, they know that I understand their business, I understand their challenges, I understand their clients, I understand what they need, and I’m not coming in cold like I felt like one of their own in a way. Joseph: [00:34:53] So it sounds like you investing the energy and the time into doing your side research, your side certification, and also just really customizing and tailoring your approach. It really sounds like that helped you stand out as a candidate. Laura: [00:35:08] I suppose it sounds a bit of a cliche, you know, don’t go on an interview without having read about the organization, but I think you’d be surprised how many people don’t. It’s a surprising, shocking number as well. And I think that’s really the key. If you can go into that room and talk their language. Talk about the things that matter to them, kind of from the hiring manager all the way into kind of their current year priorities. That shows dedication. You’ve dedicated your time to research these things, that shows interest. You’ve shown interest in that organization. You can show expertise and what you know about clients, and then you can bring your own little niche expertise in something else that you do. And I think all of that together makes you quite attractive. Joseph: [00:35:56] So it sounds like things are going well for you there at Deloitte. And one of the last things I was hoping we could talk about before we wrap up is just some of the lessons that you’ve learned along the way of your career change journey. When you look back on your career change journey, Is there anything in particular that you wished you had known that you now know about what it takes to make a pivot successfully? Laura: [00:36:22] I’m overall really happy with my transition, so I don’t think there’s anything that I’m regretting. So it’s probably not as strong of an emotion, but I really wish I would have known sooner that I’m capable of so much more than I give credit to myself for. I think it has been a really encouraging journey throughout, and I probably owe it to a lot of people walking alongside me, who continually kept giving me opportunities and opening doors for me because they believed in me when I didn’t believe in myself. So I think, number one, surrounding yourself with those people again sounds really cliché, but it’s so important. And then second thing, just believing in yourself and giving yourself more credit, I think is important. And I think the third thing would be I hear a lot of people saying, oh, I’m really not happy in my current job. I want to change, I want to do something else. And they just sort of sit and wait until kind of the penny drops and they’re going to figure out their next big move. Sometimes your pivot is not made out of one big move. Sometimes it’s made out of lots of little steps and moves, and sometimes you’re going to fall into things and that’s okay. Give it a go. Approach everything with the attitude of why not? Let’s just give it a go. Joseph: [00:37:43] Was that a major adjustment for you, Laura? I know we didn’t really touch on this, but you go from being an opera singer in front of these. What I’m assuming is quite large audiences in this sort of performance space to then being in an office, kind of dressed up in office attire, working with clients, sometimes behind a laptop, kind of in these meeting rooms. Was that a hard adjustment to make, or did you find that you kind of just fell quite naturally into that? Laura: [00:38:08] It wasn’t too difficult, but there were some things to get used to. Like, I think in the opera world you’re way more active. There’s less kind of sitting down and your work is really split into kind of bursts of energy. So you’ll rehearse a scene, you have a little bit of time to hang around while some other people are doing other things. So like your work is more segmented and it’s really stretched across kind of the day. It’s also much later in the day, so you don’t really start as early, but sometimes you do tend to finish really, really late. So that adjustment was something to get used to. So just being able to sit again from like 8 or 9 until five, it just reminded me of school. Joseph: [00:38:54] Yeah. Laura: [00:38:54] And at first, I think I really struggled to just keep my concentration going. I had like back issues as well. When I first started sitting for long periods, I wasn’t used to it, but these are kind of the only major, I suppose, adjustments. It wasn’t dramatic. Joseph: [00:39:11] And having been through this career change, Laura, what’s one thing that you’ve learned about yourself? Laura: [00:39:17] One thing I learned about myself is that curiosity is my superpower. Joseph: [00:39:23] Yeah, it sounds like curiosity has really served you well in your career, from just the example you gave of not being able to answer maybe a client question, and then you going back and diving deeper into that, or you just allowing yourself to say yes to some of these opportunities when you weren’t quite sure how they were going to work out. So it does sound like that’s worked very well for you. Laura: [00:39:44] It really has. And I’m always very encouraged to hear the stories from around the world that most inventions or innovations have happened because of someone being curious and kind of going against the usual and thinking, why not? Well, what if. And I think that’s a really encouraging. And I think we never should underestimate curiosity. It’s one of the best things that you can have in your back pocket, and I think it’s going to serve anyone well. Joseph: [00:40:12] And one more question before we wrap up with one of your side projects. Do you still sing? Laura: [00:40:18] I still do. Not in the same capacity. I don’t do opera anymore, but I kind of sing in my free time. I sing in a kind of my local church sort of every other Sunday. So I do have some opportunities for my creative outlet. Joseph: [00:40:35] I do want to wrap up speaking of outlets with one of your side projects, can you tell me a little bit more about Path Changer, which is actually how you and I first met and something I know you’ve been working on, wherever you can somehow find the time to work on it. Laura: [00:40:50] It’s been such a busy time. I haven’t had a chance to do much on it in the last couple of months, but it is kind of something that I call my soul project. One of the things that I’m quite ionate about, having gone through this career change journey myself is helping others. Not calling myself a career expert and not a career advisor. I’m not anything in that area. However, I really wanted to create something that would allow people to get a glimpse into various perspectives related to career change. Hopefully with the view that they start seeing that things are possible. Because I think one of the most frustrating things for me to see is when someone really feels boxed in and without options, for the same reasons that I felt boxed in. For that, I don’t have the right certificate. I don’t have the right degree. I don’t have the right background to try something new, or to apply for this position, or to have a different career to the one that I had before. So I tried to create something, almost like an interview form, where I interview various experts with viewpoints or expertise related to something that might be relevant to career change. And yeah, and hoping that people can find that content interesting and then ideally also connect with those experts if they want to take that conversation further. Joseph: [00:42:17] Well, and I’ve seen some of those video clips myself and they’re very useful and very insightful. So I would encourage people to check those out. And speaking of which, if they do want to learn more about you, or if they want to check out some of the content you’ve been creating through your Path Changer initiative, where is the best place people can find you? Laura: [00:42:35] So I think currently the best place to find me would be either on LinkedIn . . . so I’m Laura McIntyre on there. Or Instagram. So if you do have Instagram, @pathchangerofficial is the handle. And that’s where I’ll be sharing all things related to career change. Joseph: [00:42:53] Okay. And we’ll be sure to include links to those profiles on our show notes. So thank you so much, Laura, for taking this time out of your busy schedule to tell us a little bit about your former life as an opera singer, your transition into the world of consulting, and also just the importance of being curious and open and how much that can really serve you in your career. So best of luck with your time there at Deloitte with Pat changer, and I also hope we can cross paths again soon. Laura: [00:43:20] Yes. Thank you so much for inviting me. It’s been really a pleasure to speak to you again. Joseph: [00:43:29] So I hope you enjoyed hearing Laura’s perspectives on prioritizing your mental health, the power of your professional network, and believing in yourself. Now it’s time to wrap up with today’s mental Fuel, where I’m going to pick up on this topic of how curiosity can play an important role in your career change journey. Joseph: [00:43:50] Before we get to today’s Mental Fuel®, I wanted to thank Stubble & Co for ing this episode of the Career Relaunch® podcast crafted for the modern urban professional. Stubble & Co combines British design and practical functionality, offering stylish, durable and high-quality bags made from recycled materials perfect for work and travels. After ordering one of their crossbody slings myself, I also appreciated how they use minimal packaging and give 1% of their annual sales to approved environmental nonprofits. Check out their full range of bags and accessories at CareerRelaunch.net/Stubble. Joseph: [00:44:28] This is the part of the show called Mental Fuel®, where I finished the show with a brief personal story related to one of the topics we covered today, and wrap up with a simple challenge to help you move forward with your own career goals. So for today’s mental fuel, I wanted to pick up on something Laura mentioned about curiosity being her superpower. And when I think about curiosity in the context of career change, it’s really about embracing an open, inquisitive mindset where you’re more focused on learning, understanding, and exploring new ideas, skills, or perspectives, rather than getting too caught up with the outcome of those explorations. Joseph: [00:45:06] And while I wouldn’t say that curiosity is my superpower per se, I’ve definitely seen how allowing myself to be curious about things has opened up professional doors that would have otherwise remained closed or undiscovered. I’ll just share a couple of concrete examples, the first of which opened up a new career opportunity, and the second related to discovering interesting people. Many years ago, after I graduated from college, I was living in Hawaii doing a financial services internship at a company there, and I used to take the same bus to work every morning, hopping on at a very specific time and seeing the same bus driver every single day. I lived in Waikiki, and that bus originated its journey from the bus stop right next door to my apartment. So when I hopped on board. Sometimes I’d be the only one there with the bus driver waiting to depart. Now, I wouldn’t call myself the most gregarious or chattiest person out there, but I would consider myself fairly friendly. So I’d chat with this bus driver every morning on my way to work, mostly to learn as much as I could about life there in Hawaii. Things to see, things to say or not say, and just the way of life there on the island. This guy’s name was Yama. He was originally from Samoa, and I do that he was always reading the newspaper at a time when people read newspapers before setting off, so we’d sit there in the bus and chat about things in the news before he drove off. Joseph: [00:46:45] And we were chatting one day, and I was telling him about my confusion around what to do after I finished up that internship, whether I would head back to the US mainland or to stay there in Hawaii. And I wasn’t quite sure what to do next, and he mentioned something that really planted a seed in my mind that would kind of forever change the trajectory of my entire career. He asked me if I ever considered going into radio news journalism. He knew I’d liked talking about the news, said I had a decent radio voice, and just posed the question. To be honest, I hadn’t ever thought of going in that direction professionally. But a couple of weeks later, I found myself doing some informational interviewing with journalists there, one of whom eventually put me in touch with a guy running the Hawaii Bureau of National Public Radio there. And the next thing I know, I’m working there as a fill-in classical music host, volunteering and eventually getting a job there, anchoring a daily news program. And this all started with me just being open to having a conversation with someone who I never would have imagined could help me come up with an idea of where to take my career, and also just being open to learning more about journalism opportunities in general, and just to jump forward a couple of decades and give a more current example now as a podcast host, where the seeds of this work really date back to that first experience being on air there in Hawaii. Joseph: [00:48:18] This entire show has emerged from my ongoing curiosity about how people navigate career changes. Sometimes listeners ask me how I find guests I feature on this show, and while there are people who apply to be guests, the vast majority of guests you hear on this show are just people I’ve informally crossed paths with, either professionally or personally. Just being curious about their stories is typically how I find most guests for this show. Now, because I’m a public speaker and I speak a lot professionally. I do plenty of talking myself, so in one-on-one conversations I tend to do more question asking than speaking myself. I try my best when I meet people in general, to ask them about them and how they ended up where they are today. Mostly because I’m just curious about it, and you’d be surprised once you probe a bit and give people some space to share their more personal stories. They do open up, and you very quickly come to realize a lot of people out there have gone through some sort of a major career or unexpected life change. So clearly I’ve seen curiosity play a role in my own career. Laura talked about how curiosity’s played a role in hers. Joseph: [00:49:48] What about you? When was the last time you just allowed yourself to pursue a new skill simply because it intrigued you? When did you last explore a new potential career idea? By taking a course, talking with someone in that sector, or reading a book or article on the topic? Or when did you make the effort to reconnect with someone you once met in ing, whom you felt could just be a nice person to have in your life? Sometimes just allowing yourself to be open to a new idea, path, or person can plant the seeds to an entirely new chapter in your career and life. This takes me to a quote from Elizabeth Gilbert, author of eat, pray, love. Curiosity is the truth and the Way of Creative Living. Following that scavenger hunt of curiosity can lead you to amazing places. So my challenge to you is to dedicate a few minutes this week to just learning something entirely new that you find intriguing right now. You could, for example, explore an emerging technology affecting your industry, or learn more about a skill that someone you ire possesses, or listen to a podcast episode about a topic you’re curious about. Joseph: [00:51:17] I’ve been doing a little bit of learning and exploration myself recently, delving deeper into the world of AI to figure out the role it might play in my own workflow, the careers of my clients, followers and audiences, and also broader society.I’ve actually just finished the book Co-Intelligence by Ethan Mollick, which I would highly recommend if you want to learn more about how to embrace and work with AI in your career and broader life, think about what step you’ll take to allow curiosity to play a greater role in your career. Joseph: [00:51:49] If you want to share a step you’ve recently taken to explore something new in your career; have a question you want me to address on the show; or just want to share a story of career change with others, I’d love for you to leave me a voicemail with your thoughts at careerrelaunch.net/104, where you can also find a summary of my discussion with Laura and learn more about her. Again, that’s careerrelaunch.net/104. Joseph: [00:52:13] If you’ve enjoyed today’s show, I’d really appreciate you leaving a positive review and rating on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And be sure to hit that follow button so you can get the latest episodes of the show delivered right to your device. Thanks so much for being part of the Career Relaunch® community, and a special thanks again to Laura McIntyre for sharing her story with us today from Kent. Joseph: [00:52:34] This episode was mixed by Liam MacKenzie. Today’s music was curated by Jonathan Renaldy Poll and the career relaunch theme song was written and performed by electrocardiogram. I’m Joseph Liu. Have a great final few weeks of the year and I’ll talk to you next time.

Have you ever felt a bit out of place in your current job? Do you ever feel more like an outsider than an insider at your company? Have you ever struggled to fit in at your workplace? In episode 103 of the Career Relaunch® podcast, Dorna Lakayan, an architect and designer, describes her international journey to figure out where she belongs, the challenges of penetrating new professional circles, and the emotional dynamics of running your own business I also share some thoughts on fitting into new environments during the Mental Fuel® segment. 💭 Key Career Change Insights While your instincts can serve you well, over time, logic and reason can overwhelm that instinct as you progress in your career, which can stop you from making brave leaps that align with your true ambitions. Some days, you may wake up and feel like you’re making zero progress, but you still have to find a way to bravely put one foot in front of the other and make consistent efforts to keep moving forward both socially and professionally. You often hear stories of success, but what lies beneath the surface are often lonely, challenging days where things haven’t gone according to plan. It’s part of the journey and helps you get where you ultimately want to go. When people don’t respond in the way you want them to, it may not relate as much to you as it does to their situation or own struggles. If you’re going through a tough time in your career, trust that this shall and life will go on. As long as you’re enthusiastic about what you’re doing and excited about your future, opportunities will arise. 💪🏼 Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I challenged listeners to find an anchor point that’s consistently served you well, kept you grounded, or just helped you feel more in control. Identify an activity, skillset, person, or place you can reconnect with regularly to create that sense of familiarity that serves as a source of comfort, confidence, and certainty as you face those professional and personal challenges around you. 📖 Episode Chapters 00:00:00 Overview 00:01:07 Introduction 00:02:39 Chat with Dorna Lakayan 00:44:07 Mental Fuel 00:51:08 Listener Challenge 00:51:41 Wrap Up 👤 About Dorna Lakayan, Architect Dorna Lakayan is an interior architect and furniture designer with Persian and Norwegian roots. With Studio Lakayan, she transforms houses into dream homes and brand identities into memorable venues worldwide. Her approach focuses on inhabitants being the center piece of a space, complementing habits and lifestyles through mindful space design and visual harmony. Her philosophy and approach center on the idea that “A good space creates space: to feel, to think, and to be you. Be sure to check out her Lakayan Loves series where she shares her favorite icons in the world of architecture & design. Follow Dorna on Instagram and LinkedIn. 👍🏻 Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, YouTube Music, or Android to get each new episode on your device automatically. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on X and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph Liu on most major social media platforms.  Connect with Joseph 💬 Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered in future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners and aim to respond to every single voicemail I receive.  Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! 🙏🏻 Thanks to BrandYourself for ing Career Relaunch BrandYourself offers simple tools and services to help control what people find when they Google you. To clean up, protect, and improve how you look online, visit BrandYourself.com and use promo code ‘RELAUNCH’ to get 50% off a hip. 🎵 Interview Segment Music Credits Comastudio – Background Meditative Ambient Music Bio Unit – Summer Rain Lama House – Tales of the Deep Podington Bear – Ice Climb Podington Bear – Dog and Pony Show Podington Bear – Night Vision Cora Zea – Velvet Uniform Podington Bear – Chimera Joystock – Acoustic Inspiration 📄 Interview Transcript (coming soon)

The start of a new job or chapter in your career can be a sensitive, delicate time. It’s a moment when you’re trying to convince yourself you’ve made the right move. It’s also a moment when you’re trying to convince others you can do something, which may be very different from what you were doing before. Moving onto something new is harder than holding on to what you already have, even if what you have isn’t bringing you joy. In episode 102 of the Career Relaunch® podcast, Sandeep Achanta, a former fitness professional in India turned service designer in the UK describes how you can discover what ignites you, bravely leap into a new professional role, and embrace your unique career journey.  I also share some thoughts on overcoming the mental hurdle of starting over during the Mental Fuel® segment. Key Career Change Insights While you may be in a comfortable job with relative stability, you might still feel like something is off, like you could be doing more. When this happens, you have to ask yourself when you will cross a tipping point and make the leap to do something else. The decision to change careers is separate from the transition process. The actual transition could take months or years to execute, which is just part of making a major pivot. If you’re dissatisfied with your current role, you have broadly two options. You can either find a way to tolerate and manage your situation, or you can proactively attempt to do something else. Humility is a critical component of making any career change. You may have to start over a bit, drop down to a lower rung on a corporate ladder, or report to someone who may be younger than you. During a career change, we tend to discount or dismiss away our previous experiences that don’t directly relate to a new role. Those experiences are exactly what enables you to make your unique contribution. Resources Mentioned Sandeep mentioned he began his exploration of service design with the Interaction Design Foundation. Learn more about CrossFit at the official CrossFit website. Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I talked overcoming the emotional hurdle of starting over. My challenge to you is to identify one small, imperfect step you could take toward doing something that could allow you to feel more energized. Ideas include: Giving yourself a quiet moment to just reflect on how you’ve been emotionally feeling about your career Taking a small leap of faith. Taking stock of which skills or experiences you want to carry forward so you can more fully buy into making that leap. , you don’t have to have it all mapped out right now. You just have to start somewhere. Episode Chapters 00:00:00 Overview 00:01:07 Introduction 00:03:17 Chat with Sandeep Achanta 00:45:54 Mental Fuel 00:52:04 Listener Challenge 00:52:48 Listener Thoughts 00:54:59 Wrap Up About Sandeep Achanta Sandeep Achanta is currently a Service Designer working at the Bank of England. After spending over a decade in the fitness industry in India across various roles such as trainer, business owner, and product lead, he decided to pursue a Master’s program in Service Design at Loughborough University London. During his time at university, he worked on projects with organisations such as Mind, the mental health charity, and the Hackney Council public health team. Sandeep is ionate about deg great services that are sustainable and improve health and well-being. In his spare time, he loves playing tabletop games and reading fantasy fiction. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, YouTube Music, or Android to get each new episode on your device automatically. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on X and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph Liu on most major social media platforms.  Connect with Joseph Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered in future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners and aim to respond to every single voicemail I receive.  Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to A2 Hosting for ing the Career Relaunch® podcast A2 Hosting is the web host provider I use and trust for my own websites, and they even offer 100% carbon neutral green hosting. For an easy, fast, and affordable way to get your personal website online today, visit careerrelaunch.net/a2 to get 50% off your web hosting plan. Interview Segment Music Credits Kevin Shrout – d’entreprise en feu Hazy – Letting Go Lotus – The Warm and Absolute Lama House – Lupina’s Dream Podington Bear – Lucky Stars Diet 75 – 66 Halos Joystock – Write Your Story Interview Transcript Joseph: Okay, Sandeep. Thank you so much for taking the time to me here on the Career Relaunch podcast. It is great to have you on the show. Sandeep: [03:25] Thank you so much for having me on. Like I said, I’ve been a long-time fan and listener of the podcast, so it really is a pleasure and an honor to be on. Joseph: Let’s start by talking about what has been keeping you busy in your career and your life at this moment. What are you focused on right now? Sandeep: [03:45] I’ve just about landed on the other side of my career change journey. I’ve just started working as a service designer at the Bank of England. And so, what I’m really focused on is getting a sense of what it’s like to work in this field, and getting a sense of how to use a new toolkit that’s at my fingers, so to speak. Joseph: For those people, like me, who are not exactly familiar with what a service designer does, I think it’s probably a less common job title. What exactly do you do for the Bank of England? Sandeep: [04:20] A service designer helps manage the people, systems, processes, and interactions in the end-to-end delivery of a service. Basically, think of any common service that we interact with on a day-to-day basis, like a coffee shop. That’s the easiest example because you can sort of break it down from the beans to the cup of coffee in your hand and essentially, you’re thinking about all the different steps that it goes through, all the people that enable those steps, and then how all of those things fit together. A service designer basically looks at that and says, “Here are some things that we can do better to improve the experience, to be more efficient at it,” or might even potentially create a completely new service getting coffee delivered to your doorstep, for example, is a service innovation, so to speak. Joseph: How long have you been in this line of work? Sandeep: [05:12] Three months. Joseph: Three months, okay. This is really cool because we’re catching you right at the very beginning, which is nice because I can kind of hear some of your thoughts about the transition. I will come back to your time at the Bank of England, which I know is quite a new role for you. But before we do that, let’s go back in time. I know you haven’t always been a service designer for the Bank of England. Where are you from originally, and where did you grow up as a kid? Sandeep: [05:36] I moved around a lot when I was younger, but I primarily grew up in Chennai in South India. It was a fairly normal Indian upbringing. I grew up in school, expecting to become a doctor, engineer. I guess it was the only two options. There were things like lawyers and everything else further along the line, but those were the only two options. I always had a keen interest in art, and drawing, and sketching. I ended up sort of going to a career in graphic design early on. Joseph: What do you about life there as a child in Chennai? I guess I’m interested in both just what was on your mind at the time, if you can that far back, and also the types of things that you were interested in. I know you just alluded to that just now. Sandeep: [06:24] I think what I most about my time in Chennai is, I’ve moved around a lot when I was a kid. I when I was really young that my brother and I responded to the moving around in very different ways. My brother was very extroverted and he made friends very quickly. I was a little bit more introverted. It took me a little bit longer to make friends and to get used to it. Every time we moved, it was a little disrupted. But something that I found was when I was getting a little older that really helped me make friends was that I was always interested in sort of making up stories and in collaborating, for lack of a better word, on creating stories. I used to play a crude version of Dungeons and Dragons back in India. We used to play a lot of tabletop games or board games, and there would be a lot of made-up games that we’d essentially come up with. I guess, in a strange way, it does connect to some of the things I’m doing now. Joseph: Let’s go through the journey here. You mentioned you worked in graphic design, initially. And then, pretty quickly, shifted to work in the fitness industry. Do I have that right? How did that all start for you? Sandeep: [07:37] I started work in the graphic design industry. Essentially, I was working as a graphic designer for a few different companies. There was a publishing house, and there was travels and tours company. Essentially, when I ed as a designer, what I ended up doing for them was logistics. It was a very small company, a start-up. And so, everyone wore multiple hats. I found that I automatically sort of gravitated towards this other skill set that I had of organizing things and being able to effectively sort of keep track of tasks and delegate things. I found myself not enjoying the work as much because the growth was slow, as anyone in graphic design or advertising will tell you, the first eight to 10 years is essentially a grind. Unless you deeply enjoy the work, it can be difficult to have staying power. I found that it wasn’t really going anywhere. I wasn’t really learning a whole lot. I was thinking about what to do next. Around that time, I ended up ing a CrossFit-like gym that was back home in India. I really enjoyed it. I had such a great time. I liked it so much in fact that I asked him, “Hey, can I intern here?” Joseph: You were doing CrossFit yourself. You were the one doing the exercise. Sandeep: [08:56] Yeah. Joseph: Okay. Sandeep: [08:57] It was a different lifetime. Essentially, what I would do is — and it was amazing because I can’t imagine the amount of energy that I had in my early 20s. Joseph: Yeah. Sandeep: [09:06] Because I would essentially wake up at 4:00, intern there from 5 o’clock to 8 o’clock in the morning, shower, go to my day job, finish up at 5:00 in the evening, go back home, out, and repeat this for the rest of the week. After about six months of doing that, they said, “You sure are hanging out here a whole lot and you want a job.” It was a difficult transition because I had to get qualified, get my certifications under my belt. My parents weren’t particularly happy that all of the education that they invested in was amounting to their son becoming, in their words, a gym trainer, but I was really, really ionate about it and I had a knack for it as well. The few times that I did, for example, jump in and run classes, I’ve always got very positive . And so, about six months later, I ended up jumping on both legs and started working as a trainer in the fitness industry. Joseph: That’s interesting because this is back in — do I have this right? 2011-ish, around that time. This is way before CrossFit became a big thing, which is I think it has become way more popular in recent years. You’re actually teaching these classes and you are a trainer at the gym. How did you enjoy that? What was that like for you? Sandeep: [10:17] I really, really enjoyed it. I really enjoyed working with people, which is something that hit me. The job made me realize I really enjoyed working closely with people, helping them improve the quality of their lives, having conversations about their well-being. The most important part of it for me was really that, oftentimes, this was the first part of people’s days. It was at 5 a.m., 6 a.m., or 7 a.m. I really enjoyed that if I did everything right as a service, and I was able to give someone an excellent start to their day, my assumption was that the rest of their day went well. Usually, that was the that we got as well. People were like, “Oh, I feel so great. I’m so happy when I come in and do my workout. Can I just do this all the time?” I really enjoyed having that experience. And so, I really enjoyed it. The other side of it that I really found myself enjoying as well was that I found myself very, very ionate to learn about anatomy, physiology, nutrition, and the whole nuts and bolts of it. I really getting very, very nerdy into it, and I getting about five or six certifications in the span of a couple of years, which was fairly rapid, and some of them were not easy to complete. Joseph: That’s really interesting. I’m just curious, were you always somebody who had been interested in fitness yourself? Had you been a pretty healthy guy growing up, or were you someone who was exercising a lot? Sandeep: [11:47] Funnily enough, not at all. Actually, I’ve never played sports in my life. I’ve never engaged in formal sports. But that said, and here’s something that I found out only much later, my mom tells me that when I was much. much younger, I really enjoyed climbing. I really enjoyed randomly running around the neighborhood and being physically active. I just didn’t like sports. I just didn’t like organized sports at all. And so, when they did put me in organized sports, I didn’t respond well. But before that, I always did enjoy it. Even after that, yes. Before I got into the fitness industry as well, I used to like trying random physical endeavors; like rock climbing or parkour. I could never stick to anything for very long, but I did enjoy experimenting for sure. Joseph: You would start off as a trainer. You were doing that for a while. And then, eventually, you switched over and shifted more toward doing work on the business side of the training and fitness industry. Tell me about that transition. Sandeep: [12:53] It started with the organization that I was working for. And so, the first step, as with any early career, is I essentially went from being a trainer to managing other trainers. Again, that was also a process that I really enjoyed because as I had mentioned earlier, I really enjoyed being organized. And so, as you can imagine, a lot of the trainers that we were getting were quite young. They were between 18 and 21, 22, and oftentimes, this was their first job. I really enjoyed the process of mentorship; both in of bringing them onboard into what being a fitness professional was like. But then, also actually onboarding them onto being a working professional; showing up on time, being professional with the clients, knowing what to say and what not to say, which is a bigger deal than you think it is, especially in an exercise environment. I really enjoyed that process. And then, from that stage, essentially, I went to managing a center. This is when I got involved in sales. This is when I got involved in marketing. This is when I got involved in ensuring that the finances of the center made sense. If I had stayed there longer, I think I would have gotten involved in the strategic side of things as well. Joseph: Were you thinking at the time that this was what you’re going to do long-term? Were you enjoying that? Did you see yourself in that industry for a while? Sandeep: [14:18] At that point, I honestly thought I would be doing it forever. How things changed. Joseph: What changed for you? When did you start thinking that you might want to shift and do something else? Sandeep: [14:28] I think towards the end of it, unfortunately, I found myself limited in of the impact that I could have. I , I kept coming back to the idea of impact and I had to really unpack it for myself and understand what I meant by that. I realized that it was important to me that services or products that I created were scalable, replicable, and widely applicable. I didn’t have the knowledge to do that. I had become such a specialist that, essentially, from that organization, I moved to another organization where I was helping create fitness products that were being delivered to a much bigger audience. We were then creating services for 100,000 to 150,000 customer base. I still found that the ways that I was contributing to that were fairly limited. I was writing workouts, creating operating procedures for the trainers, or ideating with product developers on what might be ways to create new interesting workouts. I couldn’t help but shake the feeling that I could do more. I just couldn’t do it right now. Once I realized that it was almost as though the seeds of dissatisfaction were sown, and over the next couple of years, it just started becoming more and more obvious to me that I needed to move. Joseph: Yeah, this is something I think that comes up with a lot of people who both come on to this show and also listeners of this show, as you are in a fairly comfortable environment, fairly comfortable job. You have a decent amount of financial and personal “success,” and yet, you just feel like something’s a little bit off. I’m just wondering, what was the tipping point for you when this went from dissatisfaction to complete dismay where you knew that something had to change for you? Sandeep: [16:22] It actually went through several steps. I think as much as I would like to sit here and say that there was a flash of inspiration and I knew what I had to do, it actually took, I’d say, almost three years and went through several iterations. When I was working with this organization, as I thought through it a little bit, and I did work with a therapist on essentially mental health issues that I was having, because I was burnt out by the work that I was doing, I realized that the idea of autonomy and agency was quite important to me. With large organizations, as you can imagine, that’s not something that’s easily available to everyone. I think there’s autonomy and agency right at the top. And then, unless you’re at sea level, and maybe not even there, there isn’t necessarily a lot of autonomy. And so, I realized that that was important to me. That was a core value. And so, I did what was a potentially very risky move and quit my job in the midst of the pandemic to try and create my own online fitness service with the intent that this would be much more holistic. It wouldn’t be focused on losing weight or getting six-pack abs, but it would be much more living a better quality of life, integrating fitness practices, and good nutrition practices into your core values, and so on. I did that for a little while and it was successful. But then, what started happening was I realized two things. One, that I’m not a very good entrepreneur. I wasn’t very good at drawing boundaries for myself when I was working as an entrepreneur. That made it very difficult for me to have work-life balance. It was around this time that I got engaged. After enough weekends of listening to me whine about this, my fiancé, now wife, said I either have to do something about this or say you’re going to do it, continue doing it, and then deal with it. But the other side of it was also that I started doing a lot of the exercises that I had mentioned when we initially spoke that I’d come across on your YouTube channel, as well as some of the other career change exercises that I had come across. I started to be able to articulate specifically what the gap was. I started to be able to articulate why I was feeling unhappy and where I was feeling unhappy. And so, I think that realization combined with the fact that I was starting to be a very grumpy person to be around made me realize that either I had to have the courage to go ahead and change, or figure out ways of continuing to make this work. Joseph: I want to shift gears here a little bit. Sandeep, you even talk about that transition. You’ve now realized you’ve got to do something about this situation and something needs to change. How did you then decide what to do next? It sounds like you took some time to clear your head and watch some of those videos, do some of the exercises. How did you figure out where to go from there? Sandeep: [19:38] It was hard for sure. I think especially because there was a lot of negative self-talk in of I had put myself into a certain description, so to speak. I was Sandeep, the fitness subject matter expert, and didn’t have any other skills. I think it took me some time to come to grips with the idea of things like transferable skills, come to grips with the idea of reflecting on what prior interests might have been, and also taking a slightly more exploratory approach to the potential next steps. That kind of made me realize that, okay, I did have some transferable skills. Sure, some of there may not be skills that I may put on a resume. It would be things like people’s skills or communication because I find that often they’re overused and a little vague. But I found that, okay, I do have these skills. I do believe that I can work with people. I do believe that I’m fairly organized and can manage projects. I do believe that I’m fairly effective at communicating across a wide range of stakeholders, and also collaborating with a wide range of stakeholders because those were experiences that I had. I think that was one, realizing that, “Okay, my next step can be built off of these transferable skills.” And then, the next thing that I started looking at was, “Okay, all right, what am I interested in right now?” That took me a while to sort of encapsulate as well. I was initially interested in behavioral psychology because I still wanted to explore well-being. And so, that was something that I did consider. When I came across service design and design was when I realized that, actually, what I was looking for in of my desire to create scalable, and replicable services and products is an understanding of how products are created at scale and understanding of how services are created at scale, and what goes into that. That’s when I started sort of poking around product design, service design. When I started reading more about service design, I did a course on service design online by the Interaction Design Foundation. As I was doing it, for the first time in a few years, I lit up. Joseph: A-ha. Sandeep: [22:01] I felt amazed at how alive I felt. I was amazed at how natural the process of service design felt. It didn’t feel like a completely new discipline. It felt like something that I had done in some form of fashion before. Now, I just had a new toolkit to do it with. Which is when I took a bit of a risk, and I said, “Okay, I’d like to go ahead and study this,” and it worked out very, very well. Joseph: Sometimes, what happens is we get so used to the job that we’re in and we get so accustomed to the routine of it all that we kind of forget how we used to feel or how we could feel. We feel like the way that we are experiencing each day is just par for the course as good as it gets. It’s not until you actually do something that you really enjoy that you realize, while this feels like me, this feels oddly familiar. As you put it, you really light up. You mentioned that you decided to go back and study design, and you would eventually go back to university full-time. This was after being in the professional world for, I think it was it 12 years that you’d been working at this point. How did you decide where to go study this, and how did you navigate what can be kind of a jarring transition going from working full time to studying full time? Sandeep: [23:19] It was pretty nerve-wracking, to be honest, at first. I think, initially, I wasn’t very serious about it for exactly the same reasons that you mentioned, which is I thought I was too old. I thought it was too much of a financial commitment. It was too much of a time commitment to go back to university at this age. Joseph: How old were you at that time? Sandeep: [23:40] I just turned 31. Joseph: Uh-huh, okay. Sandeep: [23:42] It definitely felt significant. But what happened was, funny enough, in the midst of the pandemic, I met and started dating my now wife. And so, she was about to start a PhD in the UK. She was living in Chennai at that point in time. We decided to get married. She was like, “Well, I’m going next year. I’m not going to change those plans because we’re getting married.” I was like, “Yes, of course.” There was a decision to be made. Essentially, I could go to the UK with her, look at continuing my fitness career here, and then looking at studying service design on the side, which is something that I did briefly consider. I did consider looking at open university, or other part-time courses, or perhaps pivoting to service design within the fitness industry. I think the more that I thought about it, it came back to that feeling of feeling alive. I realized there was a potential decision where I could go back to university and it felt risky but, at the same time, it was very exciting. The prospect of having a year to really risk it all in some ways and see whether I could make it work gave me a sense of butterflies in my stomach but was also very, very exciting. I think that was when I felt as though I had to take a leap of faith. Either I could iteratively try things and hopefully things worked out, or I could take a leap of faith and then see where things went. It made me realize that perhaps I am the kind of person who actually likes taking a leap of faith if there is enough of a reward there. And so, I think that was part of the decision that made me decide to go back to university. We got married. I think within weeks of us getting married, I started my master’s program. I moved halfway across the world to do that. Yeah, it was incredibly challenging, but it was a fantastic experience. Joseph: You were at Loughborough. Was this your first time in the UK, this move with her? Sandeep: [25:48] Yes. I’d visited for very, very short trips before that, but this was the first time that I’d moved. Joseph: What do you about the early days of landing in the UK having come all the way here from Chennai? Sandeep: [26:00] Funnily enough, Joseph, the months leading up to the move were absolutely nerve-wracking. Because I was thinking about finding a house, trying to figure out where everything was on Google Maps, trying to figure out how I could make sure that I had food in my kitchen. Because in India, as you can imagine, labor is quite cheap. I don’t the last time that I had to cook for myself. Joseph: Oh, right. Okay. Sandeep: [26:25] When I moved here, it was a bit of a shock, for sure. But I think I surprised myself with how quickly I was able to adapt. Not so much in of the cooking that I managed that I had done before. But in of the culture is very different. The educational culture is very, very different. Whereas in India, it’s much more top-down. It’s much more performance-driven, grades-driven. Here, it was much more exploratory. There was a lot more open-ended teaching. I found that all of that worked very, very well for me. I really enjoyed the university experience here. I love being in London. It was fairly incredible. I was living in East London, which I know is frowned upon, but I really enjoyed living there, to be honest. It was a very colorful, diverse population, so I had a great time. Joseph: I guess when you think about being back in school, it sounds like you were really enjoying it. What was the hardest part about being back in school after all these years of having not sat in a classroom? I know, you did some certification on the side. You did some online learning. But being in the classroom is very different. What was challenging about that? Sandeep: [27:36] There were two things that I found the most challenging. One was, I’d forgotten what it was like to learn from a textbook, if that makes sense. Joseph: Yeah, it does. Sandeep: [27:49] I had been learning constantly and I’d been growing constantly, but it was always learning on the job. I think it had been several years since I had learned from a textbook. I found that a little bit challenging, and it took some time to get used to. But I think once I did, I found it very, very rewarding. To this day, it’s something that I find that I still enjoy, and I find that it’s something that I’m able to maintain as a ion. The other thing that I found really challenging was that I was much older than all of the other students. There was an average of an eight to 10-year-old age gap between me and the rest of the students because I was 33 at this point, and everyone else was between 21 and 24. There was a significant age gap. I found that, initially, it felt like it came with several disadvantages. I generally found that I didn’t have the — I don’t want to say energy in of physical energy, I still felt mostly physically energetic, but I didn’t have the mental energy to go chase 10 different directions at once, if that makes sense. I found that my curiosity was much more focused than spread out, which, again, was both a boon and a bane. I found that it took me a moment to realize that as a slightly older student with a little bit more work experience, I had to navigate this process a little bit differently for myself. It took me a few months to do that. I think when I was able to figure out how to make it work for me, I think that’s when I really started to make the most of it. I can give you some examples of this. I realized that, for example, most of the PhD students were closer to my age, or the professors weren’t that much older than me and were willing to have a conversation with me because I had some amount of experience. And so, I was able to converse with them and engage with them outside of the classroom environment. That was very, very useful and that’s where I really learned the most. While the classroom experience itself of the university was great, I really, really, really enjoyed understanding who these people were, what led them to design, how they are applying it in their careers today, and how they saw the role of design in the world even, so to speak. I know that sounds sort of vague and new age-y, but I genuinely mean it helped me understand the context for what I could potentially do with this new skill once I graduated. Joseph: Before we switch gears and talk about your time now as a service designer, because I am very interested to hear about how that’s been going for you, we should probably talk about how you and I first crossed paths. As I understand it, I guess a couple weeks after your arrival, came to one of my career seminars, which I assume was online at the time. In December of 2023, that’s when you actually wrote me a very kind email, which is how we first connected. It wasn’t until then that I actually realized that you had been on this career change journey. Before we talk about your time as a service designer, can you just tell me about how it felt when you graduated from your program with distinction, by the way? What was that moment like for you? Sandeep: [30:58] Graduating was a very emotional moment for several reasons. It speaks to the amount of self-doubt that I had before engaging on the whole process. Not just of university, but of the career change itself. When I initially started having feelings of doubt in the fitness industry, the thought that really stopped me is, “But you’ve spent so much time and effort in this industry, and you haven’t taken the time to acquire any other skills. You haven’t worked in the corporate world. You haven’t acquired the job titles that people usually do by this age. This is the path that you’re locked in.” I could see that path. I could see some of my colleagues would me. I had told myself that that was all I was going to be able to do, and there was no way for me to break out of that. Graduating with a distinction, graduating with a job, graduating with fantastic from my research advisor, as well as with the organization that I worked with during my dissertation, all of that was very emotional for me because it was an indicator that my leap of faith had paid off. Yes, the certification meant a lot, but the culmination of everything that had started several years ago was very, very emotional for me. Joseph: Congratulations, first of all, for graduating with distinction, just a few months ago. I am very interested to hear how things are going for you. I know you’re only a few months into it. That can be a very broad question to just ask somebody, how are things going? I’m going to try to guide this a little bit based on what you and I discussed before we started this recording. One of the things that I you told me when we first connected was that you’re so focused on landing on your feet that you didn’t really think about what would happen once you landed on the other side. Could you just explain to me what you mean by that? Sandeep: [34:59] I think when I was looking up service design and what a service designer does, what a service design role involves, I don’t think I realized that I would be starting at the bottom in many ways. I don’t think that I really considered what that would mean, what would a junior service designer role look like. I didn’t consider what the emotional brunt of that would feel like after having had expertise before, after having been in a field where I had competence, where I was confident because of that competence, where I had agency because of that competence. And so, on the other side, not only am I using a new skill set that I am not very familiar with, but I’m also in an industry that I have absolutely zero experience with. There is an element of figuring out a new skill set within a new domain. What I meant by, I didn’t consider what that would feel like is that, tactically, it’s hard. Yes, there are a lot of things that need to be done. There’s a lot of upskilling that needs to be done outside of work. But emotionally, it’s very hard as well. It really is an exercise in humility because you have to be okay with the fact that there are people younger than you who have not done a career change, who are probably in more senior positions, who probably have more experience, who are more competent and more confident in their skills. I think there’s also you might be reporting to people who possibly have less overall career experience than you, or who maybe don’t have as much expertise as you did in your previous role, right? I spent 12 years in the fitness industry, which might be, say, less than somebody spent in product design or career design. But I would be reporting to them for a good reason because they have much more competence at this thing. I think all of this really is an exercise in humility. But I think along with that, it comes back to what you’d said about transferable skills, which is having a sense of confidence in skills that I previously acquired in figuring out how they translate in this new environment is not a process that I can take for granted. It’s a process that I have to consciously seek out and enable. Joseph: Has there been anything in particular that you have learned about yourself during this process of going from being an experienced professional to what can feel like you’re going to the bottom rung of a totem pole, I guess, to put it bluntly? What have you learned about yourself as you’ve been going through this exercise and humility as you put it? Sandeep: [35:54] As much as it sounds like I am in a sense whining about starting at the bottom, I’m actually not. I will say that I do enjoy it in some ways. Although, I did feel a lot of discomfort at the idea of starting again and not having competence. But I think what it made me realize is what I am actually good at and what I actually do enjoy. I’ve realized, for example, that the things that, in a situation like this in an uncomfortable situation, I enjoy doing is figuring out a way to provide value in the ways that I can. For my team, for example, I’ve started taking up the tasks that nobody else wants to do, that are not fun to do, that might be work, or that might be collaborating with people and setting up meetings and doing the grunt work. I find that finding ways for me to add value is something that I am happy to be open-minded and curious about and find my own way through. The other thing is that I do tend to undervalue some of the transferable skills that I have. Recently, I had a review with my line manager as it’s been about three months. Some of the that she had for me was that I undersell a lot of the skills that I’ve acquired from previous experience. And so, something that she was highlighting was that by discounting that, I don’t allow myself to contribute in ways that I already can, using expertise that I already have. It got me thinking about how going through something like this, I think it’s easy to discount all the previous knowledge that you have or all the previous abilities that you have. I think it’s very important to understand the value of it when you’re going through this process so that not only does it give you a sense of confidence when you’re starting off at the bottom of the totem pole, but it also allows you to figure out a way forward that is uniquely yours. What I mean by that is, I think if I was to throw all of that out the window and start off from scratch and say, “I’m going to try and be the best service designer that I can,” that’s probably going to take me another 10 years to do that. However, if I say, “I’m going to be the best combination of whatever skills that I already have, and then combine them with the new skill set that I have,” it might pay an opportunity for me to contribute in a unique way that perhaps if I was just trying to be the best service designer that I can, I wouldn’t be able to. Joseph: That makes a lot of sense. I guess we can have a tendency of almost dismissing away our past experiences, which on the surface might seem very irrelevant to our current role, but actually do provide us with some unique perspective and allow us to add value in a unique way that we otherwise wouldn’t be able to. I suppose the last thing I was hoping we could talk about before we wrap up, if we continue to focus on your new role and how different it has been for you and the career change journey you’ve been on, has there been anything particularly surprising about your transition going from the fitness industry into becoming a service designer with the Bank of England? Sandeep: [39:07] I think actually the most surprising things have not necessarily been with regards to the profession itself, but with regards to working in a different country because the culture is completely different in the UK than back home in India. I’m able to navigate the domain differences and the skill differences. Because often, it’s about learning a new skill set or learning information that you didn’t have before, and then understanding it and how to work within it. Culture differences between back home and here is something that I need a lot of help with often. Little things like ask my boss, “Hey, can I step out for lunch and I’ll be back in an hour and a half?” She’s like, “Yeah, you’re not chained to your desk. It’s fine. You can do that.” Or knowing that even though there is, say, hierarchy within the organization, that is completely fine for me to speak to someone who is a couple of levels up and ask them what might potentially be a stupid question. These are things that are frowned upon or I’ve not always had the opportunity to do before. There are, I would say, the most surprising thing has been learning about the cultural differences between different parts of the world. It’s something that I was sort of aware of, but experiencing it first-hand is completely different. Joseph: I’ve never been to India myself. I do work with people in India quite regularly, and there are definitely some differences I do notice in the working style. Also, just like life in general, I suppose, when you move from one country to another. I’ve been here for 14 years now, Sandeep, and I still, like on a daily basis, I still struggle with aspects of British culture, even after all this time. And so, I think you’re right in pointing out that some of these more tactical things like navigating a new industry or function or role can actually be learned, but those cultural nuances and differences can be much harder to navigate. A couple more questions for you before we wrap up. If you had to give advice to your younger self as it relates to changing careers, what might that be? Sandeep: [41:12] To really be more confident in myself and my abilities. This actually goes back to one of your videos, and also the question that I asked you back in 2022 when you presented at my university, which is, “If you have any kind of work experience at all, whether it’s a couple of years, whether it’s several years, I think really have confidence in what you can do, and especially what you can do well.” Because I think knowing what you’re good at, what you like doing, and what you want to continue to do, will allow you to cleave clearly what you don’t want to do or what you’re not good at, and will also allow you to in the future stack skills on top of that and say, “This is actually who I am. I am not just Sandeep, who likes to organize, work with people, collaborate, teach; but I’m Sandeep who likes to do all of this in the context of developing services.” It’s kind of like you’re building on top of who you are, rather than starting from scratch each time. I think the reason why I would give myself that advice is because I personally needed a lot more confidence when I was starting off. Joseph: When you look back on this career pivot, what’s something you wished you had known that you now know since you are now on the other side of it? Actually, I guess you’re still going through it. Sandeep: [42:39] It’s that as long as I’m following my interests, it’s enjoyable. I think the reason why I’d say I wish I had known that is because I was trying to make sense of everything from such a rational point of view, where I was trying to make sense of all the dots and made sure that when they all connected, there was a beautiful picture at the end of it. But it’s not always that clear, is it? But all the time, it’s worked out. Whether it’s university, whether it was my dissertation, whether it was my job, whether it was the internships that I did, any time I was doing something that I was interested in, and I followed that interest, it always paid off. Yeah, I wish I had known that and I’m still working on that. Because I think it’s very easy to drift back into the mode of, “Okay, this is the right decision to make.” I wish I had known that. Joseph: Well, thank you so much, Sandeep, for going such a deep dive into all of your reflections that you’ve had over the years, and telling us about your life, both back in India and how you pivoted to restart your career here in the UK. I appreciate you reaching out back in December and dropped me a really kind email. I just wanted to wish you the best of luck with your new role there at the Bank of England, and your life as a service designer right now. I hope it continues to go well for you. Sandeep: [44:06] Thank you so much. Like I mentioned in the email, I cannot understate the impact that you’ve had in my life. You were such an incredibly important part at the beginning of this journey. I’m sure you’ve forgotten about those YouTube videos that you probably made way back when, but I’m sure there’s people like me who are still watching them and are able to actually take actionable lessons and steps away from that and do something with it. Thank you so much for the work that you do, Joseph. Joseph: Of course. Sandeep: [44:34] It really meant so much. I’m continuing to listen to the podcast, and I wish you all the best with everything. Joseph: Thank you so much. It’s been really meaningful to connect with you, and it’s not every day that I hear from people who watch my videos. It has been a while since I’ve done those years. I should probably get back to that at some point here, but I appreciate you saying that. It really does mean a lot to me, and it’s just been a real privilege to have you on the show. Thanks for coming on. Sandeep: [44:57] Thank you for the kind words.

When was the last time you took some time off from work? I often feel this pressure to keep plowing ahead in my career, to not take detours, and to not slow down. However, taking a momentary pause during a job transition is often the only real opportunity you have to slow down, recalibrate, and reconsider where you want to take your career next. HR professional Gisela Prunes Garcia shares her thoughts on the complexities of living and working in different countries, putting yourself out there before you’re ready, and managing your internal thoughts during uncertain career transitions. In episode 101 of the Career Relaunch® podcast, I also share some thoughts on the tension between professional achievement and periodic reflection during the Mental Fuel® segment. 💡Key Career Change Insights Returning to your home country after living elsewhere may not always fill you with the comfort you might expect from familiar surroundings and can instead leave you feeling confused about where you belong. Talking about your career when you’re working for an established, well-known company is much easier than discussing your transitions or messy periods in your professional trajectory. While uncomfortable, career transitions can be a very fertile ground to explore other interests and paths that you may have otherwise ignored or overlooked while being focused on climbing the corporate ladder. 🚀Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I challenge you to periodically permit yourself to slow down, even if it’s just for a day, and allow yourself to have a bit of a metaphorical palate cleanser. During these momentary pauses, ask yourself: What’s my level of satisfaction with where my career is headed right now? What action can I take to better align my work with my natural strengths and interests? Where would I like my life to be a year from now, both personally and professionally? 5 years from now? 🎧Episode Chapters 00:00:00 Overview 00:01:07 Introduction 00:03:47 Discussion with Gisela Prunes Garcia 00:42:33 Mental Fuel 00:49:38 Listener Challenge 00:50:09 Wrap Up 👤About Gisela Prunes Garcia Gisel Prunes Garcia is a Human Resources professional from Barcelona who lived in the United States for the past 12 years. Her career in corporate started in Barcelona at Sara Lee Corporation, a Fortune 500 company in consumer goods, where she worked for a few years until she decided to move to California in 2012. She went on to explore different industries while building up a new life and career in a new culture, in a second language with no network. Her most recent experiences were with The Walt Disney Company in HR Production and Getty Images managing Creative and Editorial client groups. She specializes in finding opportunities that drive solutions to improve the employee experience and business results. Working in various industries and with highly creative folks allowed her to form unique perspectives and develop agility to analyze problems and find holistic and creative solutions. Follow Gisela on Instagram and LinkedIn. ⭐️Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android to get each new episode on your device automatically. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph Liu on most major social media platforms.  Connect with Joseph 💬Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered in future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!  Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! 🙏🏻Thanks to Wise for ing the Career Relaunch® podcast Wise is the world’s most international bank . It lets you hold and convert multiple currencies all in one place, offering a smarter, easier way to move money internationally without the typical bank fees or foreign exchange commissions. I’ve used it for years myself to handle many of my own international transactions. Try Wise for free at CareerRelalunch.net/wise. 🎵Interview Segment Music Credits Nettson – Last Promise Ikson – Night Podington Bear – Buttom Mushrooms Lama House – Lupina’s Dream Alan Ellis – Sea Cora Zea – Canon in Db Keys of Moon – Warm Memories JNGS – Lit

Today marks our 100th episode of the Career Relaunch® podcast!🎉. For the past seven years, we’ve shared the personal stories of people around the world who have reinvented their careers, and today, I’m thrilled to have Anne Tumlinson, CEO of ATI Advisory and founder of Daughterhood, us again on the show. Anne was the very first guest I interviewed for this show over seven years ago before it even launched, and today, we’re going to talk about how her career and life have evolved since then. She’ll share her reflections on her journey as a founder turned CEO, the complex dynamics of growing your own organization, and the impact changes in her personal life have had on her outlook on life, career, and her own perspectives. During a special Mental Fuel® segment, I’ll summarize my top takeaways from the nearly 100 guests I’ve featured on this show, including a montage of key highlights to help you understand the dynamics, challenges, and upside of changing career paths to pursue work you find truly meaningful. 💡Key Career Change Insights Consistently showing up is half the battle when embarking on any major career endeavor. Your unique collection of gifts, talents, skills, and interests can fuel you to do work you find truly meaningful. You just have to open yourself up to fully tapping into them. Even when you’re building momentum and achieving “success,” still questioning whether you’re completely on the right track is normal. 📒Resources Mentioned In the book Great By Choice by Jim Collins, he describes the 20-mile-march concept. Past Career Relaunch® episodes mentioned: Creating Steady Progress with Anne Tumlinson– episode 3 Deciding What Matters with Bruce Daisley– episode 26 Giving Yourself Room to Explore with Audrey Lemargue– episode 9 Embracing Uncertainty with Stephen Satterfield– episode 15 Setting Realistic Expectations with Chinwe Oneaygoro– episode 59 Creating a New Image with Deepak Shukla– episode 51 Letting Go with Karen Hing– episode 52 Doing What Excites You with Alex Trochut– episode 56 Being Your Own #1 Fan with Sandeep Johal– episode 20 Taking Care of Yourself with Erika Russi– episode 77 🚀Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, my challenge to you is to decide what choice you feel you could make for your career that you can be proud of. One that you’re confident you can look back on 10 years, 20 years from now, and not regret. What matters most to you right now during this chapter of your life and career? And what step will you take to honor this? 🎧Episode Chapters 00:00:00 – Overview 00:01:07 – Introduction 00:04:53 – Chat with Anne Tumlinson 00:48:39 – Mental Fuel® 00:59:32 – Listener Challenge 00:59:56 – Listener Thank You 01:01:59 – Wrap Up 👤About Anne Tumlinson, Founder & CEO of ATI Advisory and Daughterhood Anne Tumlinson and I have known each other for over 20 years. As one of the very first managers I had after I dropped out of medical school, she played an instrumental role in helping me navigate my first big career transition in my early 20s. She was also the very first person I ever interviewed for this show seven years ago, and she continues to possess a wealth of personal and professional insights that I and many of our listeners have found so useful. She currently advises the nation’s top public and private leaders in healthcare as the Founder and Board Chair of Daughterhood, a non-profit national community that connects family caregivers with each other for and information. She also serves on the non-profit board for Mary’s Center, an FQHC, and the Board of Directors for Bluestone Physician Services and Harmony @ Home. Anne is a member of the National Academy of Social Insurance and was named an Influencer in Aging by Next Avenue. Anne spent her early career working in government, first in the office of Congressman John Lewis (D-GA) and then at the Office of Management and Budget. She ed the private consulting firm Avalere Health in 2000, growing and leading the firm’s provider practice and developing its first business intelligence product. 💬Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android to get each new episode on your device automatically. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph Liu on most major social media platforms.  Connect with Joseph 💬Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered in future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!  Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! 🙏🏻Thanks to Vista Social for ing the Career Relaunch® podcast Vista Social is a versatile, time-saving tool to manage all your social media s in one place. You can easily create, schedule, optimise, and publish content directly to multiple social media profiles from one simple dashboard. I actually use it myself to manage all my online profiles. 🎵Music Credits Thanks to Reeve for producing the music for this special 100th episode and to Electrocardiogram for composing the Career Relaunch® podcast theme music. ✍️Interview Transcript Joseph: Well, hello again, Anne. I am very excited to have you back on the Career Relaunch Podcast. Welcome back to the show. Anne: [05:00] Thank you. It’s exciting to be back. Joseph: The last time we spoke was a few weeks ago actually over dinner when I was in D.C., so we did manage to catch up a little bit. Before that, the last time we recorded a conversation between the two of us was way back in 2016. I’m not sure if you this, but you were the very first person I interviewed for the show. Anne: [05:24] I do. Joseph: Because the podcast hadn’t even launched. It did eventually launch with your episode being one of the first. Exactly seven years ago in September 2016. Anne: [05:34] It was thrilling because you did such a good job with it, and you made that beautiful illustration. Joseph: You were featured in the trailer, yes. Anne: [05:44] That was pretty neat to see that come to life so creatively. Joseph: Probably, the show may not have happened without you. Just to go back in time. So now, this is now the 100th episode. Anne: [05:54] Wow. Joseph: Yeah. I thought it’d be very fitting to have the very first person I interviewed on the show to come back and to share your story again, just to check in on how things are going. Anne: [06:05] That’s awesome. We’ve really been on this journey together. Joseph: Definitely. This is going to be a little bit of a different chat from other episodes. Because I guess the idea here is for us to have a bit of a conversation about how things are going for you and for me, and seven years after that chat we had back in 2016. At the time, on your end, you had just launched off on your own. You had just begun developing the concept of Daughterhood. You were a solopreneur. And now, you’re a CEO overseeing a whole team at ATI Advisory. For me, I was about three years into running my own business. Beginning my shift from one-on-one coaching to more content creation and public speaking. I wasn’t a father then, I am now. Your kids were living at home. They’re in a completely different phase now. So, a lot of change for both of us. I was hoping that we could organize this chat in the past, present, and future, where you were, what you’ve experienced along the way, and what’s next for you. Maybe you should go first here. Let’s just go back in time. Can you try to mentally transport yourself back to 2016? What do you recall you were focused on at the time? Maybe we should start with the personal. What was your family life like in 2016? What was going on with you personally? And then, we’ll get to the professional in a second. Anne: [07:23] In 2016, I called myself a single mom. I was co-parenting with my ex-husband, so it wasn’t I was in it all by myself. Certainly, I was the head of the household that I live in and the sole earner with two teenage children, 16 and 13. We were looking at colleges for my oldest child. Now, she has made her way all the way through college. She has graduated, and she is fully employed. My youngest is in college. So, I’m in a really different place in parenting. And, I got married in 2018. Joseph: Do I have this right? Your separation had not happened that long before we recorded our episode in 2016? Do I have that right? Anne: [08:15] Yeah. I separated in 2011 and was divorced in 2012. If you’ve never been through anything like that, this may sound weird. If you have, it will ring true. It was a 15-year marriage. It takes a long time to reset from that and get to your new normal. I definitely wasn’t quite in it yet. I was still trying to figure out who I was in the world without a spouse. When you’re married, it’s really hard to imagine just how much your identity starts to absorb being in that partnership. I was like, “Who am I in my personal world, and who am I in my professional world?” In the middle of all that, I quit my job and started my own enterprise, so to speak, which had two parts to it. One was ing myself through independent consulting, business-to-business. And then, the other was developing this platform. I didn’t really know what it was going to become, but I knew I wanted to start to form a relationship with family caregivers who were taking care of their parents and have an interchange of ideas across this transom. That’s them in their day-to-day experiences, and me with my expertise, and for people who are listing my expertise as in aging and health policy. Joseph: How did you get interested in this aging topic? I know we haven’t talked a lot about your own parents that much. I am curious how did this end up being your focus. Anne: [09:56] It’s so funny you asked that question. Just as a quick aside, my kids are now in their 20s. They and their friends are all in the very beginning stages of, “What do I want to do with my life?” I have a lot of 20-somethings standing in my kitchen. One of them was there last night at 11 o’clock, asking me. He’s pre-med. He’s like, “How did you end up here, in doing what you’re doing?” They’re always interested in that story. He just asked me that last night. I was always drawn to the phase of life that is the last phase of life. I can’t explain why. Even as an undergraduate, I did my work or my psychology undergraduate degree on the last phase of life and aging. And then, my very first job out of college was on Capitol Hill working as a congressional aid to Congressman John Lewis from Atlanta, Georgia, who was on the Aging Committee and then on a health subcommittee. And so, I was able to jump right into that and I loved it. I love policy because I like the challenge of all of the different systemic parts and how do you think about systems. I also really like, in reason I started Daughterhood was because I felt I was missing that — you can’t really work on a system we don’t understand how it’s affecting people on the ground, on a day-to-day basis. Joseph, you were right there with me in 2014, when I was going through all of this. Just really in the heart of the struggle, so to speak. You held my hand and walked me across the bridge into entrepreneurship. Joseph: I that. That was a surreal moment for me. For people who don’t know this, you were my manager actually. You’re one of my very first managers I think, in full-time employment for me. This is after I dropped out of medical school. I was trying to figure out my life. I was one of those kids “who were kind of in your kitchen,” who was trying to figure out what to do next. Anne: [12:11] Yeah. Joseph: And then, we started working together professionally when I was a coach. I had just started off in 2013, so about a year into that. You’re one of my first clients, which was weird. Anne: [12:24] I know. Joseph: Kind of flip for me to be in the role of coach for who had been one of my coaches early on. That was really rewarding and really just a special, unique relationship I think that we’ve had. Anne: [12:41] It is. It was for me as well. The second we started to talk, you’d call me I think just to let me know. I was like, “Oh. Oh, this is what I need. Could you help me?” Joseph: I sitting in your office when I was your direct report in Washington, D.C. I you telling me about your kids at the time. This one, I was in my early 20s. And so, another major change I think for you, Anne, was in 2016, both your kids were at home. Anne: [13:13] Yeah. Now, they’ve grown up. Joseph: Where are they now, and how has that change been for you? Anne: [13:19] In 2016, my oldest was just looking at colleges. And now, she’s fully graduated from college and is in her first professional role working at the National Institutes for Mental Health, doing work she really likes. That’s a small miracle really, when you think about how hard it is to find work right out of college. She actually still lives with me because she’s saving money. All good Gen Z’ers have to do I think in this day and age. And then, my son is a rising junior at Emory University. He lives there or he’s getting ready to go on foreign study. My house feels full right now because it’s the summer and he’s home. And so, even though they’re here though, my relationship with them is completely different because they’re adults. I still see them. We spend time together. But, I only get involved in their lives when they ask me to. That’s drawing all these new boundaries, trying to figure out the relationship, and how to be a parent to an adult, that has been mind-blowing. Joseph: That must be surreal. I’ve got a 5-year-old daughter, coming up on 6. So, I guess roughly maybe the age of Grace when you and I worked together in D.C. I’ve always been curious what’s it like the day after, in your case, both of your kids are off to college and your house is empty. Do you that day? Anne: [14:52] Yeah. I had a much tougher time when my oldest left. Because that was the moment when I was going from one phase of life to another. When my son left, I felt more prepared for it. Honestly, I enjoyed it. I got remarried in 2018. Just about the time that my son — he lived here for a couple of years after I got remarried, and then he went off to college. So, it was enjoyable for me to be able to be in my home alone with my new husband. There was a lot of relationships still to discover and enjoy, getting to know each other in that environment. That was a nice distraction from having the bittersweetness of watching your children leave you, which is what they’re supposed to do, but it is still — bittersweet is the only word I can think of to describe it. It’s an incredible privilege to watch them go out. It’s thrilling to watch them go discover themselves, and go through all of the exciting things that they get to go through as young adults out in the world but it is also heartbreaking because your relationship with them is not the same. They don’t need you as much. The intimacy is to a certain extent diminished. That beautiful intimacy that you have with a 5-year-old, where you’re in there still in that magical, that 5-year-old is still in the world of magic. Joseph: Yes. Anne: [16:36] I will say this for all of you who have youngsters is that, what helped me a lot was that I had no regrets. I had worked very hard and I devoted myself a lot to my career. I also really had done everything I wanted to do with my children. I read all the books. We went on all the trips. We had all of the movie nights and the popcorn nights. I felt, as sad as I was, there wasn’t anything that I could have done differently to have gotten any less sad. Joseph: I know. Anne: [17:17] Life is just full of these, as now that I’m 56, just full of these transitions after transition after transition after transition. Just when you think something is one way, it changes. One other fact that in these last seven years is that also my parents went from being incredibly independent to my father getting very sick and died. And now, my mom is in her 80s and living in an independent living community. My kids are transitioning. My parents are transitioning. My business was transitioning. So, not boring. Joseph: I know that there’s a lot in there to unpack. I mean, this is a career show, so I would be interested in — Anne: [17:58] Yes. Joseph: Before we talk about the evolution of everything that’s happened to you over time, can you in 2016 just factoring in everything you just mentioned about the difference that was happening? Your kids are getting older, you have come out of one relationship, you’re just starting your business. What were some of your biggest concerns at the time? If you can back to 2016. Anne: [18:21] I was just concerned about paying the bills. That’s not the only one, but I think one of my primary concerns was money, just money. I was scared. I didn’t have any visibility into whether or not the business would be there. Maybe there’d be three or four months. Anybody who’s done consulting knows how this is, or professional services of any kind. You will have this onslaught of work. If you’re on your own, you have to do it all yourself. And then, all of a sudden, there won’t be any work. Instead of just enjoying the moment of break, you’re worrying. Joseph: You’re panicked. Anne: [19:03] About where that business is. You’re either freaking out because you worry about execution risk, or you’re freaking out because you’re worrying about whether or not there’s enough business. By the way, that has not changed. Joseph: Right. I think that does happen. Anne: [19:19] I’m still there. Joseph: I still have that a lot. I’m now a decade into doing this work. I wouldn’t say it keeps me up at night, but I definitely have this productive paranoia. I don’t even know if it’s productive. Sometimes, this is unproductive paranoia about what would happen if all the clients I now work with, what if they all went away, which a version of that happened to me in 2020 with speaking engagements. And so, I think as a business owner, you never take for granted, the business that you do have coming in. One thing I know that has really changed for you since we spoke was, at the time, you were a solopreneur and you’re, as you described, thinking where the next client’s going to come from. And now, you have a team of over 20, I think. Is it like 20? Anne: [20:04] Thirty. Joseph: Thirty now. Okay. You got 30 people you’re managing, whom you’ve hired. How did you make that decision? At what point did you feel like, “I need to bring somebody on”? Anne: [20:17] I was doing a lot of work that I am actually not that good at or efficient. I felt like wasn’t great service to the client. So, they’re paying me a rate that is encoming of all of my expertise and my time in the planet, and I’m spending hours dealing with the spreadsheet or a PowerPoint slide deck. I contemplated a couple different models, it’s not uncommon to contract some of those things out through a 1099 relationship, or a contracting relationship. But, to get the constancy and consistency in service and delivery, I wasn’t that I thought, “Oh, this has to grow by some amount.” It was more that I felt if I didn’t do that, I was always going to be in a a scarcity mindset. I don’t want to be in a scarcity mindset. I want to be in a, “We have plenty of resources. We can do this. We’ve got what we need.” And so, there’s also the serendipity of their own. Then, there’s this person who is looking for a job, and I’ve worked with her before, and I knew what she could do. I was like, “She could really help me.” Another very interesting thing happened. Because obviously, if you’re worrying about money, and then you’re hiring somebody. Joseph: You’ve got to pay these people. Anne: [21:40] Now, you got payroll. I had a mentor who was a very wealthy individual, and he’d taken an interest in the work that we were doing in my career, which was nice. He called me and he said, “I will be your safety net for a while. So, if you need some money you can come to me.” What he said was — this is the awesome thing. He goes, “I don’t want you to have any excuse not to do this.” Joseph: Wow. Anne: [22:19] By the way, P.S. I could not get a line of credit at the bank. He was going to be my bank. And so, I took it and it worked out great. And then, in 2017, I hired a second person. Then, in 2018 was a slow year. It was a tough year. I thought, “This might not work.” I think we even talked about this in 2016, and that’s normal. Joseph: I’m still solo. I do contract out with independent freelancers to help me with this show and some other things, but I don’t have any employees. One of the challenging things for me is just my bandwidth, and that is because I’m by myself. I have been resistant to bringing anybody else on board. And so, I’ve just dealt with that scarcity that you have mentioned, and just sometimes turning away stuff. Anne: [23:08] That’s okay. Joseph: But, yeah, it’s a trade-off. It’s a trade-off. Anne: [23:09] Yeah. That’s exactly right. Some businesses are meant to scale the way that I’m scaling, and some businesses are meant to be sort of the individual level. Everybody makes a big deal out of scaling, “Scaling is everything,” it’s not. It’s just not. It comes with an enormous number of headaches. I will say — and this is where I think you and I are quite different. A theme in my whole life has been, a little bit of a leaping without looking. Joseph: Just go for it, yeah. Anne: [23:44] Yeah. I get impatient with the analytic piece of things. Whereas, you have so much patience and you’ll look and consider all angles. At a certain point, I’m like, “I don’t have the patience.” I can’t play chess or checkers. I don’t have the patience for that level of anticipating every move. I just go for it. The outcome of that is that sometimes there’s wonderful rewards on their side. But also, that I end up going, “I can’t believe I did that.” Joseph: It actually worked out. Anne: [24:20] I had no idea what I was getting myself into, but here I am. Joseph: Well, let’s talk a little bit about what you have observed, and maybe what has been on your mind lately after thinking about the evolution of your life, and also your business over the past seven years. What do you feel is going really well right now for you? And then, we’ll talk about the challenges in a second. What’s working and what’s going on for you right now? Anne: [24:46] Taking my life as a totality right now, I feel very solid. My mother, my mother-in-law are going through their last stage of life in their 80s. My children are going through a time of change. I feel I’m well-equipped, mentally and physically, to be solid. Be the solid center of their lives and my life, and it feels great. From a business perspective, what I have discovered is that I am really enjoying working on building a business. As opposed to working in the business, I very much still enjoy consulting. I enjoy the clients and the work that we’re doing in the subject matter. But also, the learning. Not just learning about business, but learning about I’m always motivated by the challenge of stepping into the role of CEO. I had to actually write down what my job was and post it on my board because I didn’t know. What does a CEO do? I had to think about, “Oh, I’m in charge of setting the strategy in the direction for the company, finding the resources people in talent, and solving the big problems.” Joseph: That’s a good list. Anne: [26:13] Those are my big three. Trusting people that you hire and not getting too into the weeds with their work and what they’re doing. And so, it’s been great. I don’t know that I’ve nailed it, but I think that it is exciting to be able to grow. It’s exciting to find out what you’re capable of. I think it’s iterative, you’re not capable until you put yourself in the position, and then you learn how to be capable. And then, you’re like, “Oh god!” Joseph: Yes. You almost have to do it. Anne: [26:44] I think a lot of people wait for the capability to come before they attempt it, but that doesn’t work that way. Joseph: Yeah. It’s very chicken or egg, isn’t it? Because you want to have the skills before you go out there if you don’t embarrass yourself. At the same time, you have to go out there and do it to develop the skill set. I , early on, I think I gave a TED Talk. It was in 2014, and that was one of the first talks I gave, which got me thinking about shifting from doing more one-on-one coaching to more public speaking. It wasn’t my best talk, but it got me out there and it got me starting to think about that, to experience what it’s like to do that. It is very hard to decide what’s going to be my first move in this particular space and when will I feel comfortable doing it. You’re right. I think it does need to happen just before you feel completely ready. Otherwise, you’ll never do it. Anne: [27:39] One hundred percent. There was a moment in my life very, very early on when I learned to overcome that feeling of shame or embarrassment for putting yourself out there. It was a similar formative moment in my life. Actually, to do with my dad and the advice he gave me in a social situation. It was very formative. I realized, “Oh, you can survive it. You can fall on your face in front of a lot of people and be fine.” That lodged itself in my subconscious. And so, I have been more willing than I think most people to have a more public failure, which isn’t to say that I don’t absolutely dread it. Joseph: Yeah, it’s not fun. That’s not the best time of your life. Anne: [28:32] You have to learn to tolerate it. Joseph: Yes. What have you found most challenging over the past few years? What have you struggled with? Whether it’s related to the scaling of your business or just running an independent consultancy, versus being an employee, or anything in your personal life, what’s been the toughest? Anne: [28:52] The theme that has been very challenging across personal and professional has been relationships. I don’t mean client relationships. When you scale quickly in your life, relationships change. I feel the same person. I’m the same person. But, I am seven years older, and I have grown children, and I have a parent who needs care, and I have a business that’s 30 people and growing quickly, and it has a lot of visibility out in the public space and a non-profit platform that also has visibility. And so, even within the business, just how people perceive you and what you are doing and what you say to them and you go from having these intimate, maybe this is the theme. Your children are little, and it’s very intimate. You’re in a small organization or you’re an employee with a team. It’s pretty intimate when you grow an organization. When you grow, sometimes, those bonds tend to fray. The role change. The sort of perceived elevation or distance, what it does is then, it has the potential to damage trust. Everybody has their issues, and their insecurities, and their desires, and they’re all colliding against each other in this organization now. So, the biggest challenge is, “How do I set up the infrastructure?” That human resources infrastructure, and the clarity around roles, and the clarity around expectations, and values, and mission, and that’s all quite challenging. I, in fact, hired somebody with expertise in human resources because I realized I was way out, way out over my skis. Joseph: Yeah. It’s more complicated than it can seem. Initially, you feel like, “I’ll hire these people and I’ll just work it out.” It can be complicated. Anne: [31:01] No. You just can’t even imagine all of the different things that come out. I mean, it’s just mind-blowing. Joseph: I’d also be interested in maybe talking through some of the things that you mentioned to me back in 2016, to revisit these ideas that you had at the time. I went back and, as you know, I was just in Chicago a couple of days ago. On the plane ride over there, I was listening to our old episode. One of the things that you mentioned to me was the idea that your self-worth was driven by your last full-time employer, versus your value coming from your own skills and knowledge and experiences. I was just curious how you now think about your value. Maybe this ties into what you’re just talking about, about your evolving role in your organization. How do you think about those days when you were full-time employed versus now running your own organization? Anne: [31:54] It’s still a challenge. Maybe the lesson is that you never stop questioning your value. Once the consultancy started to pick up steam and got off the ground, and there was 10 of us, or 12 of us, maybe I felt pretty secure. I was like, “I was doing a lot of consulting. I was helping people learn. I was teaching. We were coming up to speed.” Maybe there’s a break from having to question it. But then, a funny thing happened. Just I hired these amazingly talented people who are smarter than me and better at it than I am, and if the business is going to operate well, I got to get out of their way. And so, there was a period of time, and it’s still going on, where I think, “What do I have to offer this organization?” I think I may have told you when we had dinner, I have a really great friend and coach now, Gretchen Alkema, I was her grand team and she was in a foundation. And then, she left and she started her own enterprise. I brought many of the lessons and I told her about our conversations. And now, she’s out on her own doing strengths-based coaching. She’s like, “Your job now is to tell everybody where you’re going.” I was like, “Oh crap! That I have to know!” The value question is just ever-present. I think that might just be either my insecurity or maybe that’s just how we all are. We, as people, as humans, we want to be valuable. Sometimes, I jump in, and I’ll edit papers, or I’ll look at deliverables, and offer suggestions. I feel really valuable when I’m doing that. Joseph: Right. Anne: [33:50] How are we going to grow the business? I’m like, “I don’t know if I know how to do this.” I’m still questioning. Joseph: Figuring it out as you go. Anne: [33:59] Yeah. Joseph: One of the things that you mentioned to me also in 2016, was that a lot of progress is just about showing off. Anne: [34:05] Yeah. Joseph: Do you still believe that? Anne: [34:07] Yes. You know that feeling of panic? I’m sure you feel this way, too. I assume you do. Which is that the nice thing about getting a few years under your belt is that when you get into a trough from a business perspective, you can look back, you don’t have a history. Joseph: Yeah. Anne: [34:22] You can say, “Oh, look. There were five other troughs that always works out.” And that, this showing up thing and wrestling, just like I have a lot more faith now I think about this value question that if I just wrestle with it, the next thing will unfold. Then, shining your flashlight on just the next right step, it’s still scary. I could make a big mistake, make a bad decision, and it will affect a lot of people. I can only just do the best that I can. Showing up is everything. Consistency is everything. Joseph: I don’t know if you know this, but I featured a little clip from your discussion with me back in 2016. When you said that just because something is hard, it doesn’t mean you’re failing. Anne: [35:08] Yeah. Joseph: It’s less about talent and more about commitment and consistency. I think word for word, that is what you said. Because I play it a lot for people. Do you still believe that? Anne: [35:17] Oh, yeah. I get a lot of nice positive reinforcement now from the outside world. You can almost hear the tape playing in their head like, “I don’t know that I would have ever thought you could do this.” Me either! Me either. The only difference between me and the many, many phenomenal people who aren’t creating and building their own companies is that I just do it. I just do it. There is an element of taking risks. I do think that I have a tolerance for risk. It’s not about being particularly smart, or particularly talented. It’s about being willing to put yourself out there and just keep going. Joseph: Well, this ties into the last thing I was hoping to talk with you about before we wrap up with what’s next for you. It was this idea that you shared with me about how the universe tends to respond when you open yourself up to change. As you just mentioned, just going for it and doing it. I am just curious to hear what you think of that. Now, when you think about your personal life — I guess I’ll just direct you to one idea here, which is just the fact you’re now remarried, but also anything in your professional life. How do you think about this idea of opening yourself up to change and putting yourself out there for that potential change? Anne: [36:47] I just believe in this, there’s a momentum in the larger fabric of the universe. There’s momentum. That our jobs are really just to start the momentum, and that you can put things in motion. I should just say, because I do strengths-based work with [unintelligible], and my top five strengths: ideation and activation, are among my top five. So, it’s easy for me to say, having an idea putting it in motion, having an idea, putting emotion. My biggest challenge sometimes is just actually to not put an idea in motion because there’s enough things in motion right now. Joseph: I’ve got a lot of ideas. Anne: [37:31] Not going to start playing the flute again, nope. Having those strings has allowed me to observe that when you put something in motion, and you put a little bit of muscle behind it, and you commit to it, physics law here where then it picks up steam. There’s going to be things that are going to come along that are going to facilitate that. It’s really cumulative. I’m seeing things happen now in my world that I would never have ever imagined. Like big companies coming and saying, “We want to acquire you.” It’s amusing actually. Joseph: I bet, yeah. Anne: [38:15] They know getting to what’s next, that’s not what I’m interested in. But, it’s a signal that there’s this momentum. Because what I’ve been doing is just, hands down, doing the work. I think you said this to me, and I still have it on my bulletin board. Yes, you did, Joseph. You said this to me. Joseph: I’m curious what this is. Anne: [38:34] Doing the ‘20-mile march’ every day. Joseph: Oh, right. Yes. The Jim Collins concept. Anne: [38:40] Yeah. Joseph: From his “Great by Choice” book. Anne: [38:41] I wrote down in 2016, I still have; anything truly great will take at least five to 10 years to build. At some level, “This might not work” is the heart of all important projects. Joseph: Things do take time. It’s very easy to just give up when you aren’t getting the traction that you want. One of my issues is just having such high expectations of what I think is going to happen tomorrow, and it doesn’t pan out that way. And then, I get disappointed by it. And then, the problem is that you might give up on it. Anne: [39:13] Right! Joseph: Or, you’re 99 percent of the way there, and right when you’re about to turn a corner, you drop it. Anne: [39:17] I have had some disappointments. Daughterhood, which is the non-profit platform. Joseph, I did not become as famous as Oprah. ? Do you me saying, “I want to be like Oprah for caregiving?” Joseph: I , yes. I want to talk about Daughterhood! Yeah, I do that you had a certain vision for it. Anne: [39:37] It’s not so much about not doing what you’re doing, but about reframing your expectations. Joseph: Yes. I know one of the things you mentioned to me also at the time was, and I’ll just ask you the same question again today. If you were to give your advice to your younger self, one of the things you said was about suffering less. I’m wondering what your perspective is on this now. Is there any sort of advice you might share with Anne in 2016 when you were in the earlier days of starting and running your business? Anne: [40:06] You’ve got everything you need. You’re not missing anything. I think that I’ve lived a lot of my life thinking that I wasn’t smart enough or talented enough. But, my strengths, your unique constellation of gifts is enough. It’s enough to do the things that are meaningful to you, and that’s all that matters. So, it’s not about success, as it’s defined by the world. It’s more about what it is that you want to get up every morning and do. You would absolutely have everything that it takes to do what’s meaningful to you on a day-to-day basis. There’s no question. Everybody does. I think that’s what I would say. Just remind myself that you are enough. Joseph: Well, I want to wrap up with what you are doing now. I know there are all sorts of things we could talk about. I’m probably most interested in what you just mentioned. At the time you had just launched Daughterhood Circles back in 2016, or you’re thinking about the idea of it, which was to provide women with these resources to care for their aging parents. How did you envision that going, and how has it gone, and what’s next for it? I know there’s a lot of questions wrapped up in that one question. Anne: [41:25] For people who don’t live in the United States listening to this podcast, we have a very broken system for ing older adults and their families when their ability to function in their day-to-day life starts to diminish. They need and services. There’s no front door to a system. There’s no front door to a front door. It’s just you’re really on your own. So, the idea behind that these grassroots circles formed by volunteers in every community was that they would serve as the sort of peer-to-peer coaching, and , and connection to resources. Like, who better to tell you where you can go for things and people who’ve been through it. It turns out that trying to scale a grassroots volunteer-led organization that is highly disaggregated or disparate across the country is really, really hard. And, people still don’t know the answers to those questions. We really, really flailed for many years in trying to build this network of circles at the local level. We had a handful of really high-performing ones. We had a bunch that didn’t ever get off the ground. Eventually, we’ve pivoted. My father’s death in COVID coincided with really pushing me into a new approach, which is a virtual circle platform, and making it more topic-based. And then, we’re now getting ready to launch a whole new way of connecting our community to resources at the local level that will give them the resources they need to get going. We are moving it into a non-profit and getting the 501(c)(3) designation that will enable us to hopefully raise some money and truly scale. There are a couple of relationships that broke up between myself and some of our leaders and volunteers that were really excruciatingly painful for me. Joseph: I guess whenever you’re going through these moments of change and evolution, it’s hard to keep every relationship intact in a positive way. Just there are so many important parts. Anne: [43:39] Yeah. You fail people. You can’t meet everybody’s expectations for everything all the time. Sometimes, they’re coming from a place that you couldn’t control it even if you wanted to. Like, you could trust yourself under a pretzel and they would still — doesn’t have anything to do with you. Joseph: Yes. Anne: [43:57] But, it’s still painful. I’m really excited that I have an incredible partner now, and all of this somebody who sort of appeared at the right time to help me turn this next phase into a reality, and that’s made all the difference. Joseph: Last question then for you, Anne, because I do want to end on a positive note here because it sounds like you’ve gone through so much change, and you’ve grown your organization, your life has changed over the past seven years, both personally and professionally. At the beginning of our chat today, you mentioned that little animated trailer that I put together to launch this podcast a few years ago. In that trailer, we featured something you said at the time about how you wished you had known just how amazing it is to be in the process of doing something new. What has been the most rewarding part of your career change journey? Anne: [44:48] It’s still the creation of something that is not lived in the world before. I mentioned this at the beginning, working on the business. Probably, a little bit more of a big picture way of saying that is, getting up every morning, getting to think about what’s next. For me, it’s 100 percent about creativity. But, you have to have all of the business fundamentals there, and you have to have all the right people who know how to execute. I mean, there’s a lot of things that go into it. But, when I’m really in the zone, when I’m really feeling great, it’s when I’m thinking about, “We’re going to be a 50 percent business in a year and a half, and here are the things that we’re going to be doing, and here’s the content we’re going to put out around that, and the reports we’re going to write, and the money we’re going to raise for Daughterhood.” Just being able to not just have the idea and not just activate it, but then move it along and see it appear in the world. It’s my art. I’m not an artist. I’m a terrible artist. A terrible musician. I’m a really bad gardener. All of those things, but this is my art. And so, for me, it’s a creative process and that’s what gets me up in the morning. It makes it all worthwhile. Joseph: Thank you so much for chatting with me again today and about your journey. Anne: [46:13] Thank you for having me. Joseph: Yeah. You’ve gone from independent consultants to now, the CEO of your own advisory firm. Your life has changed so much over the past few years. I appreciate you sharing with me and everybody else what you’ve learned along the way. Thanks for ing me on this very special 100th episode of the show. Anne: [46:31] Woo-hoo! Joseph: Also, for your willingness to record that chat with me way back in 2016 that really planted the first seed to get this podcast off the ground. Anne: [46:39] Joseph, you’ve done amazing work. You’ve helped so many people along the way. So, huge congratulations to you as well. Joseph: Thank you. Anne: [46:48] I’m reflecting that actually. There’s a little bit of a container for us to have this conversation that is important. We need to do this. We need to have a way to go, “Okay.” Gosh, I didn’t realize. I got married, my dad died, my kids grew up and left the home, the business grew. All in seven years. I don’t think I fully reflected on all that. So, thank you. Joseph: Of course, of course. Anne: [47:14] I really appreciate it. Joseph: Thank you for sharing it all with me, too. Yeah, it’s just nice that we can stay in touch after all these years. How long is it? It’s 20 years now. Anne: [47:22] Well, we’ll be in touch for the rest of our lives. Joseph: I hope so, yeah. I hope so. Well, in the meantime, best of luck with your work at ATI Advisory, the future of Daughterhood, and of course, the rest of your life there in D.C. Anne: [47:34] Thanks. Joseph: Hope to talk with you again soon, Anne. Anne: [47:36] Okay.

Think for a moment about the original blueprint you once had for your career. What did you want to be when you grew up? How did you envision your life would look? And what has your actual experience been like? If you’re like most people I cross paths with, your career trajectory has been very different from what you imagined. Your ability to roll with the punches and absorb the shocks that inevitably come up along the way of any professional journey can make a huge difference to where you end up. Broadway musical star turned web engineer Carla Stickler explains how she managed to balance multiple career endeavors while pivoting into a brand new industry on episode 99 of the Career Relaunch® podcast. In the Mental Fuel® segment, I’ll explain how to embrace and manage the inevitable messiness of career transitions. Key Career Change Insights Sometimes, you can just tell when you’re excelling and making the most of your strengths in your career. The more positive you get from others, the more this reinforces the fact you’re on the right track. You never know when you’re going to turn a corner in your career. With enough patience and persistence, you may eventually have your big breakthrough. Think of your first job in a new sector as an opportunity to clarify exactly which aspects of this new work appeal to you and aligns best with your interests. When you’re considering opportunities that may feel like a reach, instead of just saying, “why me?” try saying, “why NOT me?” Resources Mentioned Carla mentioned a couple of resources to help people learn coding including Freecodecamp.org, the Grace Hopper bootcamp, and the Flatiron School bootcamp that episode 77 guest Erika Russi ed. Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I challenged you to identify one area in your career where your desire for the ideal set of circumstances may be resulting in procrastination and getting in the way of you starting the next chapter in your career. Are you still waiting or the perfect solution to come to you? Are you waiting until the moment when you feel completely ready to take a plunge into something new? Try and accept that pivots are imperfect and imprecise. Acknowledge that there may be no perfect time to make your move. Understand you may never have 100% clarity on exactly what you want to do next. And understand that the biggest challenge is not tackling but rather accepting the uncertainty of it all. Rather than getting stuck in a state of inaction and paralysis, just do your best to just take one action that creates some progress in the face of this uncertainty. Episode Chapters 00:00:00 Overview 00:01:07 Introduction 00:03:00 Chat with Carla Stickler 00:45:44 Mental Fuel 00:52:39 Listener Challenge 00:53:14 Wrap Up About Carla Stickler, Broadway Star Turned Web Engineer Carla Stickler is a Web Engineer at Spotify with over a decade of performing in musicals under her belt. She is best known for her performance as Elphaba in Wicked on Broadway and has performed her own cabaret as a guest entertainer onboard Norwegian and Disney Cruise Lines. With a BFA in acting from NYU-Tisch and masters degree in theater education from NYU-Steinhardt, she was a voice teacher in New York City and made appearances as a teaching artist and guest speaker at Thespian Festivals around the country. Carla is ionate about reframing the narrative of the “starving artist” and encourages young artists to take agency over their careers by developing skills that can provide them with financial stability alongside their artistic journey. She’s also involved with Artists Who Code, a growing group of artists exploring the world of tech, where she mentors other artists as they are beginning their journey into tech. Find out more about Carla by listening to this episode of NPR’s Up First podcast (where I first heard about her), reading this HuffPost interview featuring Carla, or checking out this NPR interview she did with Scott Simon. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android to get each new episode on your device automatically. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph Liu on most major social media platforms.  Connect with Joseph Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered in future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!  Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to Harmoni for ing the Career Relaunch® podcast Thanks to Harmoni Design for ing this episode of the Career Relaunch® podcast. The Harmoni Standing Desk offers a smarter, healthier way to work with its simple design that fits into any workspace. It’s the standing desk I’ve used myself for years, and Career Relaunch® podcast listeners can get 15% off any Harmoni order by visiting CareerRelaunch.net/Harmoni and using discount code RELAUNCH when you check out. Interview Segment Music Credits Podington Bear – Pulsars Isobel O’Connor – King of Forest Green Podington Bear – Tweedlebugs Podington Bear – Turqoise Podington Bear – Raw Umber Bio Unit – Idiophone Lama House – Oceans and Infinity Orbit – Corbyn Kites Interview Transcript Joseph: Well, welcome to the Career Relaunch® podcast, Carla. It is great to have you on the show. I’m so excited to talk with you today. Carla: [03:07] Thanks so much for having me. I can’t wait to get into it. Joseph: All right. Well, let’s talk about, first of all, what has been keeping you busy at this moment, in your career and also your life. Carla: [03:18] Well, at this very moment, the thing that is keeping me the busiest is I recently started a new job. Almost, I’m like a month and a half in now at Spotify. And so, that is what has been keeping me the most busy right now. Just trying to like to learn everything, figure out the code base, and figure out what I’m doing. Joseph: You are a web engineer there, is that correct? Carla: [03:41] Yes, that’s correct. Joseph: Without getting into specifics on the projects you’re working on, can you give me a sense of exactly what a web engineer does at Spotify? Carla: [03:53] Like most people know, they have the app on their phone, that would be our mobile engineers who work on the app that you probably use daily. I work on the website of the podcast side of things. So, I work on the web being what you see on your computer when you’re using the podcast part of Spotify. I work on the front end, so I work on what you see; not the back end, not the data, not all the stuff that makes everything run. Joseph: Very interesting. Well, that front-end experience is, obviously, really important to the success of Spotify over the years. As a myself, I certainly appreciate the incremental improvements and changes to the app made over time. What about personally, what’s been occupying your time outside of work? Carla: [04:40] I love that Spotify has a great respect for work-life balance. So, I do take advantage of my personal time. The one thing that has been occupying all of my time, and I’m going to dive right in and get real personal. My husband and I have been doing fertility treatments now for almost two years. We are coming to a close with them very soon. That has just been kind of occupying all of the other space in my life. Joseph: I can imagine that. It’s one of those things that many people don’t talk about. But then, if you start to ask around with friends, you start to realize a lot of people are dealing with this when you have no idea that they were dealing with it on top of everything else they have going on. I know it can be a very intensive process. Carla: [05:27] Absolutely. Joseph: Okay. Well, let’s talk a little bit about your former life. You haven’t always been a web engineer at Spotify. I’m going to want to talk with you at some point about how you ended up in this very different industry from what you were doing before, which is you used to be a performer on Broadway. Before we get into the details of the shows that you were in, can you just take me back to your childhood and how you came to this idea that you wanted to perform? Carla: [05:59] I grew up in a very musical family. My mother was a classical pianist, who was obsessed with Stephen Sondheim in musical theater. My grandmother was an opera singer, who had a voice studio downtown at the Fine Arts Building here in Chicago. My father was in a — there were five of them. They were called “Stuck in the ’50s,” and they sing doo-wop in my hometown. Joseph: Wow. Okay. Carla: [06:24] I just grew up in it. Just everybody in my family was in music. So, it made sense that that was kind of what I was going to do. I was in a choir at a young age. I was encouraged to pursue the things that I wanted to do artistically. I went to summer camp up at Interlochen Arts Camp up in northern Michigan in Traverse City for all my summers of high school. I ended up going there for my senior year of high school. It was kind of this thing where I was just on this path. There’s a lot of momentum around doing theater and music, just non-stop. I didn’t have a lot of other things that I did. I was very focused on music here. Joseph: Were you thinking that you were eventually going to do this professionally at the time? Was that the plan? Carla: [07:09] I went back and forth when I was younger. I wasn’t sure if I wanted to do a musical theater, or if I wanted to be an opera singer. I ended up going to college, my freshman year of college at Cincinnati Conservatory of Music, to study opera. I was like, “I want to be just like my grandma. I want to sing opera.” That was kind of the plan. My freshman year ended up having a little bit of a setback. I had to have surgery on my vocal cords after finding out I had a vocal cyst. I dropped out of school after a year. I went home to Chicago. I worked in a deli for a semester and was just kind of stuck trying to figure out what I was going to do next. At that point, I decided to do just acting. So, I went to NYU and I studied just theater, and I didn’t sing for three years. At one point, I had a teacher who was like, “Why aren’t you singing?” I was a very emotional child, so I was like, “I don’t know. I don’t know what I’m doing in my life. I think I want to be an actor. I’m very confused.” They taught me how to belt and I learned how to kind of just re-imagine what my voice could be. That for me, was I would say kind of the first time in my life I learned how to kind of pivot and how to reframe what I wanted to do, and realized that I could kind of have a little more power over who I am. So, I learned how to belt and things just kind of took off. Like, I was like, “Oh, this works. This makes sense. I’m good at this.” And then, I just kind of fell into it. Then after graduation, I got an agent and I started working immediately. Joseph: Yeah. One of the things I’ve always wondered about, Carla, is how does one know whether they’re pretty good at singing and maybe above average versus being like top-tier Broadway material? At what point does that become more obvious to you? Carla: [09:01] You feel it. You feel the response that you’re getting from other people. You feel the way that you feel while you’re doing it. Once I learned how to belt, which is the thing that I did in my Broadway career. I’m a Broadway belter. Once I learned how to do that, I just it feeling so weird, but it just felt really good. It felt right, and I was getting positive responses for my teachers, things just kind of started snowballing and falling into place. I don’t think we always get to make the decision, but I was getting all this really good . So, I was like, “Oh, yes. I’m going to follow this.” And, that’s kind of what I tend to do. I’m like, I choose something, and if I’m getting positive responses, I tend to follow that path, until I don’t. Either decide I don’t want to do it anymore, or I decided I wanted something else. Joseph: So, you get an agent. What was one of the first roles you ended up landing? Carla: [09:59] The first big job I got right out of college, I ended up playing Liesel in “The Sound of Music” in Asia. I was like 19, or no, I was 20. When I graduated, 22. I was 22. I went to Hong Kong for like four months and played Liesel, the oldest daughter. The “16 Going On 17.” Joseph: Yeah, I . Carla: [10:22] It was so much fun. I just like had the best time. We were famous in Hong Kong. Our pictures were on billboards. Everywhere we went, everyone knew who we were. It was very, very fun. Joseph: How long were you doing that before you ended up moving on to your next role? Carla: [10:38] That was a four or five-month gig. When it ended, I didn’t work for a year after that. I had a really big kind of reality check. I had been fortunate to book that, but I still wasn’t a union actor. It was overseas, so it wasn’t a union gig. I was struggling to be seen. Even though I had an agent, it was really hard for me to get in the door. And so, the only thing that I knew how to do was take classes so I could meet people. I took a bunch of musical theater classes. I started taking dance classes all the time. I started waiting in long lines to audition first off because I wasn’t union. Every time I would get an audition for my agent, I would get a coach and I would work hard on it. Because my goal was just to get my union card so that I could audition easier. I didn’t study musical theater in college. So, that year was my education in musical theater that I really kind of crammed myself while waiting a lot of tables, bartending, and doing a lot of other things to make money so I could live in New York. Joseph: I’ve always wondered because you always hear these stories about people who eventually end up on Broadway or who are on Broadway, and they’re waiting tables, or they’re doing these other sort of blue-collar jobs. Did you have like a time limit in mind for yourself before you would maybe move on to something else? Because I would imagine it takes a little bit of time to gain some traction in this very competitive industry. Carla: [12:00] Funny that you asked that because I haven’t thought about this in a while. But, right at the end of that year, I was two seconds away from quitting. I was so over it. I hated waiting tables. Nothing was happening. I the guy that I was dating at that time, we had taken a trip to California and we were out at the beach. We’re like, “Maybe we should just move to the beach, and wait tables, or like open our own theater company. I don’t know.” We were about to just like leave New York. I was just so fed up with that whole year. It had been frustrating and hard. Literally, while we were on that trip, my agent called. They’re like, “Can you be in New York in two days? You have a final callback for ‘Mamma Mia’ for the national tour.” I was like, “Okay.” I had been in for the show a few times at that point. And so, I flew back. I got a terrible cold. I had probably what I thought was one of the worst auditions of my life. And then, two days later, I found out I booked it and had to go out on tour a week later. When you were kind of like, “How do you know you’re doing well?” I always take it, it’s like little science. I’m like, “Well, I guess I am supposed to do this.” So, my plans of quitting kind of got put on hold. I was like, “All right. I’m going to go on tour. See? The universe is spoken. I’m supposed to do this. I’m not supposed to quit.” So, I just kind of kept doing that. I went on tour then for about a year and a half with “Mamma Mia.” Joseph: So, you’re in “Mamma Mia,” huge show, very well-known around the world. You would eventually end up getting cast in “The Wicked” musical. How did that all transpire for you? Carla: [13:27] I’ve literally done three large shows in the entirety of my career because I was really fortunate that I got into kind of these long-running shows. I did “Mamma Mia” for about a year and a half. And then, I left to go get married the first time. I was a vacation cover for that company then for the rest of that year and a half. I would fly out to the tour and I would cover for a couple of months. At the beginning of 2010, I ended up booking “Wicked.” And so then, I went on tour with that for three years. And then, back to New York. And then, I was in New York for the rest of the time. Joseph: Just going through this one step at a time, what was your role during those first years with “Wicked”? Carla: [14:06] From 2010 through 2011, I was the understudy for Elphaba. Which means, I was in the ensemble, eight shows a week, and I was the second cover. So, in “Wicked,” Elphaba has a standby and an understudy. The standby is an off-stage cover. They’re the first person to go on. They’re on a principal contract. They will always perform the role of Elphaba if the lead role cannot go on; the lead person who plays that role. The understudy only goes on if the other two people cannot go on. You’re in the ensemble eight times a week. You understood you’ve rehearsed the role, and you have no idea when you’re going to go on for the role. I did that for two years. And then, I did the standby role for a year on the tour. And then, after I left that, I moved into the Broadway company to go back into the understudy role. I was the understudy for the entirety of the time that I was there on Broadway. I would occasionally go in as a swing contract because I would cover a bunch of other things. But, I was always understudying Elphaba. Joseph: Elphaba, for those people who are not familiar with the show — I have seen the show. She’s the lead role. Carla: [15:17] She’s the green one. Joseph: She’s the green witch and lead role in a huge, huge musical. As the understudy, what are you doing during the show? Because you’re saying you’re on standby. You are literally waiting backstage. Carla: [15:34] It would depend. If I was the standby, I would be off-stage. I would just be kind of hanging out when I was on tour. When I was the standby, I had an Etsy store and I made bracelets backstage because I had nothing else to do. I guess I was fortunate that I performed the role a lot while I was on tour. We just happened to be in places where some of the girls that I covered maybe had allergies or whatever was happening with them. So, I got to perform the role a lot while I was on tour. As an understudy though, you’re in the show eight shows a week. So, you’re in the ensemble so there’s no time to do anything else. That standby role is my favorite thing to do ever. It’s like the perfect role. Maybe you play Elphaba once or twice a week, and then you just get to do whatever you want the rest of the week. You have to be at the theater to do that. That’s the coveted get. In my opinion, that is the perfect job. Joseph: Could you give us a sense of how much of this you were doing each week? You said you’ve got, obviously, got multiple shows a week. How many shows are we talking about every single week? Carla: [16:33] Eight shows a week. Joseph: I’m assuming if you’re playing the role of Elphaba, you’re in heels, you’re wearing a wig, you’re in full dress. Does that take its toll on you after? Well, I’m just trying to imagine delivering that level of energy every single night. Whether you’re in the ensemble or if you’re actually performing the role of Elphaba. Both just require like 100 percent every night. What’s that like? Carla: [16:57] I found my ensemble role to be hard on my body because I danced a lot, and I am not actually a dancer. But, for some reason, the understudy has to dance. So, I wore like three-inch heels, and heavy, heavy wigs. My neck, chronic neck issues from wearing those heavy wigs. In the Broadway company, the stage that we danced on is not flat. It’s what you call a raked stage. It’s lower in the front of the stage and higher. It goes on a slight angle. Our stage is one of the highest raked I believe on Broadway. The one at the Gershwin in New York. So, imagine you’re wearing a three-inch heel on a raked stage. Now, it’s like you’re wearing a five-inch heel. I used to wear this very tall, flat-top wig. And so, my head, you’re constantly — your body’s rebalancing for like this crazy angle. So, your neck and all these muscles that you wouldn’t think are over-compensating. And so, I ended up with like neck injuries, and I ended up with some rib injuries from dancing with a dance partner with a very bony shoulder that got me in the side of the rib, and then a bunch of foot injuries. I have hip injuries. I literally spent all of my free time when I was in that show in New York at physical therapy, the doctor, the gym. Just like trying to make sure that my body was ready to go that night because I had so many things going on. That’s the most exhausting part of being on a Broadway show. Joseph: I was going to actually ask you, yeah, what’s the best part of being in a big Broadway hit and what’s the toughest part of it? Carla: [18:36] Yeah, that’s the toughest part. Joseph: The physicality. Carla: [18:38] Yeah. It’s the thing that the audience doesn’t see. They don’t know there’s this idea that performing on Broadway is really glamorous. Joseph: Yeah. Carla: [18:47] It is. There’s a certain aspect to it. It’s really fun. The fact that I get to go out on stage and tell the story every night, and sing these songs, and be a part of this incredible show, that’s the best part of it. When I get to meet people and they tell me how much the show meant to them, that is incredible. But, the stuff that people do not see, the constant having to take care of your body and your voice. As an understudy, I always like to say it was like I had a little Elphaba sitting on my shoulder at all times. I had no social life. I couldn’t go out late. I had to make sure I got at least eight to nine hours of sleep every night. I couldn’t drink alcohol. I couldn’t talk too much. I had to make sure that I was warmed up every single day because I also never knew when I was going to perform that role. I would find out at the last minute always because I was the understudy and not the standby. It usually meant that there was an emergency if I was going to be performing. I performed a lot, which meant there were a lot of emergencies, which meant I couldn’t live my life because I had no idea when those things were going to happen. And so, I kind of always had to be ready. That’s why I say that standby role is that coveted role because you know you’re going to get to do it at some point within the next couple of weeks. But, as the understudy, it could be six months, it could be a year before I go on. And so, it’s a lot of just having to keep up your physical body and everything so you can do that role at a moment’s notice. Joseph: Yeah. I could just imagine the uncertainty of it and just not knowing what your day is going to look like, or thinking you might go on stage and then you don’t. Carla: [20:26] It’s emotionally exhausting. Joseph: Yeah. I can imagine. At what point did you feel like this toll that the performance was having, both physical and also just the emotional, what you’re talking about not knowing when you’re going to perform? At what point did you feel like you may need to make a change? Do you what that moment was for you? Carla: [20:49] The first one in 2015, when I left the Broadway company full-time, I knew that I couldn’t keep doing the show eight times a week. I was just exhausted. I had a lot of medical stuff going on. And so, I went to grad school. I decided for myself that if I was going to step away from performing full-time, the respectable thing to do would be to go and get a master’s degree in Education. I got a master’s in Theater Education at NYU, and teach theater because I really like teaching theater. I like teaching voice, something I always felt very drawn to. I like helping people. Joseph: You’re teaching high school kids at that time. Carla: [21:29] I was doing both. So, I was going to Thespian Festivals in the summer, and I was teaching, working with high school students. And so, that’s kind of what inspired me. But, I knew I wanted to work with college students. I wanted to kind of work on a little bit more of an expertise level. So, I taught between 2015 and the pandemic, so 2020, I taught on two faculties in New York. I had a private voice studio that I ran. I loved doing that but I also simultaneously was still going in and out of “Wicked” during that time. I thought teaching was going to give me the freedom to have a little more ownership over my career. Teach, but then I was also still performing, occasionally, and I was getting frustrated with the business throughout all of that. It wasn’t quite what I thought it was going to be. I was an adjunct professor. I didn’t make a lot of money. I didn’t have health insurance. I just kind of kept realizing that I didn’t know. I was like, “I don’t know if I can do this forever.” I was exhausted. I felt like I was just constantly hustling. Looking into the show, performing for a couple of weeks here and there, and then maybe doing readings of new musicals, and then having a full load of students, and just being absolutely drained. And so then, in 2018, I had been at “Wicked” for a couple of weeks — the thing about going into “Wicked” is, every time I would go back, they would kind of like dangle a carrot in front of me. They’d be like, “Oh, Carla. It’s so great to have you back. We have to get you back in that standby role.” And then, the role would come up and they wouldn’t cast me in it. I just kind of was like, “I keep bending over backward to come in and help you out.” They would call me a Sunday morning and be like, “Can you come in for the matinee?” Joseph: Oh, wow. Like, that afternoon. Okay. Carla: [23:12] Yeah. I , one 4th of July, I was in Philadelphia with my friends. They were like, “Hey, Carla. Do you think you can be here tomorrow? We need somebody to cover for two weeks.” I was like, great. And so, I rented a car and drove back from Phil, like wherever I was in Pennsylvania to help them for two weeks. I did a lot of things like that. I thought if I gave them my show, that I was loyal to the show, they would give me the thing that I wanted, which was to move me into that standby role. Because that was the thing that I loved because I loved performing that role. I didn’t love dancing. And so, in 2018, I had this moment where I realized, “Oh, they’re never going to give me that role. They’re never going to let me play it.” I kind of just melted. I was like, “I can’t do this.” Like, I can’t teach these college students to go into a business that is just going to chew them up and spit them out. I can’t keep doing it. I was like, “I don’t know how to inspire these people to go into this business that is making me feel so terrible.” And so, I was like, “I need to do something else.” Joseph: Now, before we get to that transition, I also know that on top of all of this, do I have this right? That between 2015 and 2017, you were also working on a cruise line? Carla: [24:31] Oh, yeah. I also did. Joseph: On top of going to grad school. Can you just explain how that worked? Carla: [24:39] How that’s possible? How was I doing things at once? Joseph: Yes. Carla: [24:42] I mentioned I have ADHD, that’s how I was doing it. No. I was finishing grad school, and I was working on Norwegian Cruise Lines, doing my own show. I was a guest entertainer. The cruise went from Sunday to Sunday, from New York to the Bahamas and back. I would, on Monday, in New York. I would go to classes on Monday and Tuesday. And then, on Wednesday, I would fly to the Bahamas, meet the ship there. Cruise back with them to New York, do my two sets Saturday night, and then I would get off the ship Sunday morning, and I would go home, and I would rinse and repeat. I did that non-stop every week for about six months. And then, for another year and a half, I did about one sailing a month. Like, every week. Maybe once a month, maybe twice a month. I switched off with another girl. So, I did that kind of intermittently. Joseph: So, you’re balancing this solo show on Norwegian Cruise Lines with your grad school, while also being called in every so often to do “Wicked.” You’re flying back and forth between New York and the Bahamas. When you did decide that it was time for you to look at doing something else, what steps did you take to figure that out? Carla: [25:52] I’m like, “Oh, shiny things.” I’m like that kind of person. I see something that like grabs my attention and I will run towards it. In 2018, a friend of mine came to my birthday party. He had been a songwriter, that’s how I’d known him. He had gone to a software engineering boot camp, and was like, “I just got a job as a software engineer.” It was just like the perfect timing. The second he said it, I don’t know why I thought this. I was like, “Oh, I bet I can do that.” I went home and I just started teaching myself how to code. I was totally sucked in. I would spend hours and hours on my couch, on my computer, learning HTML and CSS and JavaScript. I was like, “This is so interesting and so different than anything I had ever done.” Joseph: How are you teaching yourself this? Was it online courses? Did you get books? Carla: [26:46] The program that I used was freecodecamp.org. I’m a big fan of their stuff. It’s really accessible. They have a lot of front end. They do also do some back end. I think they have Python. I use them mostly for JavaScript, HTML, and CSS. And then, I was also digging around a bunch of bootcamp prep programs. So, my friend had gone to the Flatiron School. So, I was looking at their bootcamp prep. I also looked at Grace Hopper’s bootcamp prep. I need a lot of different pathways into the material to understand it. So, I just found a bunch of different ways to get into this material so I could see it from a bunch of different angles and understand the concepts. So, I did that. And then, I decided to do the bootcamp in the summer of 2019, my summer break. Joseph: I’m just trying to understand. You’re going from being a performer, belting in front of huge audiences, which strikes me as quite an extroverted type of activity. And then, you’re moving into learning coding by yourself, sitting in front of a screen. They seem like such different worlds and existences to me. Was that difficult to make, the transition, or was it welcome? Carla: [28:03] You know what’s interesting? While performing is an extroverted activity, I guess or a job career, understudying a role is a very solo job. I spent a lot of solo time going over the role. I would spend time by myself in a rehearsal room walking through the show. By myself in my hotel room, singing through the show and visualizing my work. So, there is a lot of introverted kind of solo work that goes into being an understudy. Yes, you do have to be on stage with other people. So, you do have to know how to connect with other people. The thing that I knew how to do was how to work by myself. I knew how to learn things. I had learned how I learned, and that is something I do solo. And so, doing software engineering really kind of tapped into that solo work that I love. Also, I am a ceramic artist. I do pottery. Pottery is also very focused solo work. I can sit at a pottery wheel for four hours, five hours, and just throw mugs all day long. I love very focused work. And so, software engineering really tapped into that for me. I guess I do. I do sometimes crave people. But, I’ve found other ways to get that. Joseph: Yeah. I guess you’re spending a lot of time by yourself in hotel rooms and backstage and just quietly rehearsing things with yourself. So, very interesting. Can you explain how you then transitioned into your first formalized role in this world of coding and software engineering? I understand your first role that you had wasn’t exactly the perfect role for you, but it helped you transition into the industry. Carla: [29:52] I have the great fortune of starting my job search in March of 2020. We all know what was going on then, and everybody was on a hiring freeze. Nobody would hire me. Nobody would even interview me for software engineering roles. I had a couple of calls with people. What I one, at the end of the call, she said to me, “I’m really sorry. I hope I didn’t waste your time. I just really wanted to talk to you. You seemed like an interesting person, but I don’t really have a role for you.” I was like, “Okay.” She’s like, “But I’m so interested in you. I can’t wait to see what’s next for you. Please keep in touch.” I was like, “Great. Okay.” I was like, okay, I’m networking. I guess that’s what I’m doing. I could not find any roles. The first interview that I got was for a customer success role at a tech start-up in New York. It was fully remote. I charmed my way into the role. I had no idea what I was doing. I bombed the interview. I sent them an email like, “Listen, I can learn this. I’m good with people. If you teach me how to do it, I will be able to do it.” They gave me their job. I did it for a year. It was not the right role for me. I discovered I like people; I do not like working with customers. That is a very different kind of people. The great thing about it was it gave me and my husband the opportunity to move back to Chicago. I had a full-time job. I had health insurance. Those were the most important things to me. So, as soon as we had some stability, we moved back to Chicago. We bought a house. We got to be near our family. And then, once we settled here, I started applying for software engineering jobs and ended up at a company in Chicago. I did that for two years, and it was great. Joseph: That was G2. Carla: [31:34] Yes. Joseph: Which is they do software and service reviews. Now, before we get to your current role, I know in late 2021, you ended up kind of going back to your former life a little bit. Can you explain to me what happened after you had started your role as a software engineer at G2, about a year into your role? Carla: [31:57] I am so grateful to G2. They were so ive when this happened. I kind of mentioned earlier how “Wicked” would ask me to do things very last minute a lot. That was kind of the thing I’m very good at. I’m very good at a last-minute pop-in, to do something that is very difficult. It was Christmas vacation of 2021. It was the day after Christmas. I was on my way to Michigan to go have a great time at a cabin with a bunch of friends. I get a call from “Wicked,” and they were like, “Hey, what are you doing? Do you want to fly to New York tomorrow and come help us out? We’re running out of Elphabas. Everybody has COVID.” At that point, I was thinking through all the girls that I knew in New York who covered the role in the past few years, and everybody had COVID or just had a baby. And so, I was like, “Well, it’s me. Okay.” I wasn’t sure if I wanted to go just because I was so excited about my new life. I was like, “No, I got to do this.” I need to kind of just for me, for myself. I was like, if I get one more chance to play this role, I think I can kind of put it to bed. I think I will be content with Broadway and not feel like I missed out on anything. Because I hadn’t, at that point, played Elphaba since 2015. Even though I’ve been covering it, and understudying it, and rehearsing it, I hadn’t performed it in a long time. So, I was like, “Oh, this might be a nice opportunity.” So, I flew in. Luckily, didn’t get COVID. I did get to perform the role two nights while I was there. It was unexpected. I was kind of just doing it for myself. And then, the moment kind of went a little viral. I had a lot of people reaching out to me and news organizations. Everybody wanted to know who this crazy software engineer was that could just play Elphaba at the drop of a dime. It was a little bit exhausting. I was ready to kind of just be a software engineer. And then, all of a sudden, it launched me into this space of a lot of people wanted to talk to me about what I had done, and feeling like I needed to be an inspiration to a lot of other people. I love that but also, I said my husband and I have been trying to get pregnant for a long time. So, it was like in the middle of all of these things, and I had so much going on. It was overwhelming. Joseph: There are some times, Carla, there’s this allure to our former life. It can be very alluring and almost tempting to revert back to what used to be a very normal and kind of our day-to-day existence. And yet, you’ve now seen this other side of the world. You’ve seen this other side of an industry that you maybe thought wasn’t quite right for you. And then, you discovered this whole coding world. I can imagine that would just create all sorts of internal dialogue is what I would probably be having with myself during that time. Carla: [34:46] A lot of like, “Who am I? What am I doing? Am I doing the right thing? Have I made the right choices?” The teacher in me is like, “How can I help other people?” It was overwhelming. A lot of good things came out of it, but I wasn’t quite ready for all of it. So, a lot of opportunities were missed just because I couldn’t keep track of everything. Joseph: Well, you eventually just would remain in the software and web engineering space. What triggered you to eventually decide to move to Spotify, which is a recent move you just made earlier this year? Carla: [35:18] I loved G2. I was a full-stack engineer there. It was a great first job for me. I got to learn so much about who I want to be as an engineer. I always tell people who are kind of getting into engineering, “Your first job is not going to be your forever role. Your first job is to learn about what is going to be required of you in this space.” Especially, if you’re changing careers from an entirely different field. Your first job is to learn the lingo, learn how to exist in this space, learn what your opinions are, and figure out who you are as an engineer. For me, it was great because I really discovered at that role that I love front-end work. The artist in me loves the design aspect of front end. I love making things look pretty, and I’m drawn to that aspect of engineering. And so, when this role kind of came up, a friend of mine works at Spotify and he’s like, “Hey, we have a role. You should apply for it.” I was like, “Oh, I don’t know if I’m ready.” And then, I was like, “You know what? I’m never going to feel ready. I’m just going to do it.” I spent weeks just cramming so I could do well on the interviews. It just kind of one thing after another. I was like, “Oh, I am ready. I actually do know more than I thought I did. I just spent two years doing this. I know so much more about who I am, and the space, what I want. I’m much better at articulating that. I know how to answer these questions. I know what I’m doing. Why not me? Why can’t I get this job?” And so, I keep saying it feels very on-brand for me to work at Spotify, just because it’s a music company. Joseph: Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. Carla: [36:57] Yeah. Of course, I would work at Spotify. So, it’s really nice. It feels like a nice landing spot right now. Joseph: Yeah. Carla: [37:03] I would like to stick for a little while. Joseph: Yeah. It is an interesting intersection of the work that you’re now doing and the work that you had been doing in the past. Quite neatly packaged up. So, the last thing I want to talk about with you, Carla, before we wrap up with a very interesting and important initiative of yours that you mentioned to me before, is just some of the lessons that you’ve learned along the way of your very interesting career change journey. As I was researching you and your story, and reading about some of your past interviews that you’ve done, I know one of the things that you said before was that, being an understudy and an actor teaches you to be brave. This change that you have made from being a performer to someone who’s now working in the world of software web engineering takes a bit of a leap of faith. How were you able to find your courage to make that leap of faith? Carla: [37:52] The courage has come from all the times that I’ve had to change my mind or all the times that I’ve fallen and had to get back up. I just discovered through all of that, that the world doesn’t end. What’s the worst thing that’s going to happen? As long as I’m safe. Leaving a job, getting fired from a job, having to have that surgery on my vocal cords, anything. All those little moments of having to kind of overcome something and pivot and do something else, really reminded me when I was ready, I was like, “Oh, you know what? I can do this. Why can’t I do this?” I always used to say, “Listen, I survived a divorce. I could do anything.” Like, “I survived playing Elphaba on a moment’s notice. I flew across the country to go play her. My debut was a mess, but I did it and it was great. Like, the first time I played Elphaba.” I have all of these little stories of things that I did that I think are crazy things that I was able to do. And so, when I look at that, I’m like, “Well, if I could do that, why can’t I do this?” And so, it’s just been like a series of reminding myself that, “Well, I can do more than I think I can. If I can just kind of shut that thing out of my brain that says no.” Why not, instead. Joseph: You also did an interview with Monica Torres in 2022 for a HuffPost article. One of the things that struck me that you said in the article was that you feel like, especially around the arts, people have to commit a hundred percent to being an artist. Why do you think that people feel this pressure to contain themselves within a very specific career path? Even when that could potentially be limiting to their lives. Carla: [39:35] In particular with the arts, it really goes back to the message that we all receive when we’re young. It’s that, well, theater and music, it’s so hard. You should only do it if you can’t imagine yourself doing anything else. That is one of the most toxic things we can tell young people because it really pigeonholes them. The kids who do decide to go into the arts then believe that “I have to commit. This has to be everything. I have to give everything in my life to this thing because I made this decision.” Whereas everybody else, maybe it scared them to go in, so everybody else just didn’t even explore it because they thought there was no room for them to have the arts in their life if they wanted to be a part-time artist. So, you don’t really give kids the message that being a part-time artist or being an artist can look however you want. And so, we end up creating this idea that it has to be everything. So, we have to give it 100 percent. We have to be willing to put up with toxic behavior in the industry. We have to be willing to put up with low wages and no health insurance because that’s what it means to be an artist, that’s what it means to be an actor. I don’t want to get too much into the strikes that are going on right now. But, the WGA strike and the SAG strike. It’s all a reflection of this idea that actors and artists will work for nothing because they love it. That’s not fair because we will. Artists love it and they’re ionate about it. So, they’re willing to give up a lot for it and that’s not fair to us because then we burn out, and we don’t get paid what we’re worth, and we can’t manage all of it. Because the people with all the money aren’t respecting that we also deserve to have liveable wages and all of those things. It’s hard. There’s this feeling of if you can’t give it all, can’t do it at all, might as well quit. That’s something I’m still exploring. What does it look like? What does art look like in my life now that I’ve kind of stepped away from that full-time pursuit? How can I do art and not feel burnt out? How can I do it for me? How can I do it and still love it and enjoy it, without giving it 100 percent? Because I can’t do that anymore. Joseph: You sound like you have a lot of different facets to your professional life and lots of different interests, which is wonderful. I’m just interested to hear what you’ve learned about yourself along the way of this very interesting career change journey. Carla: [41:58] Two things. One, I’m much more resilient than I give myself credit for. Two, I’m smarter than I think. It sounds silly every time I say it. But, as a woman, as an artist, these are things that I don’t think we tell young girls enough. And so, I just always assumed I don’t think I ever thought of myself as a smart person, as like an intellectual person. And so, to have gone into engineering, I’m like, “Oh, I am smart. I can figure things out. I can write code and solve difficult problems.” That, to me, means that I’m a smart person. And so, it validates that for me, which is nice. To be 40, and finally believe that I’m a smart person. Joseph: Well, speaking of this intersection of their different interests in your career, I’d love to wrap up with something I know is really important to you. Can you tell me a little bit more about “Artists Who Code”? What exactly is that? Carla: [42:54] At the beginning of 2020, when everything shut down, a bunch of friends and a bunch of people that I knew were kind of like, “What do I do? I don’t know what to do?” You learned how to code; how do I do that?” Some other friends of mine who I met during this time had started a Slack group just because they were having the same thing. Their friends were asking them the same question because they had been performers, they had quit performing. People were like, “How do I do that? I need a job. Can I learn to code? Is that something I can do?” They started a little Slack group. And so, a friend of mine connected me with them, and I just started funneling everybody into this group. And so, over the past few years, this group has blown. We have hundreds of people in the group. They’re all artists who’ve all decided they want to learn how to code, or learn design, or get into tech somehow. And so, we spend a lot of time helping people explore bootcamps and have conversations around, “Is there a way to balance both? How could I be in tech and be an artist or a musician?” It’s a really beautiful group. I love being a part of it. I do a lot of onboarding. I introduce people to the group, and I talk to them, and I help them with their LinkedIn profiles and their resumes and stuff. It’s a nice space to kind of encourage artists to remind them also that they’re smart, that we are all capable of doing more than we all think that we can do. It’s a cool group. I’m very proud to be a part of it. Joseph: That sounds like a wonderful initiative. I know you have your hands full with a lot of different things right now. So, I just wanted to thank you again for telling us more about your former life as a Broadway musical performer, your transition into the software engineering world, and also the lessons you’ve learned along the way of your very interesting career change journey. So, best of luck with your role there at Spotify, the mentorship works you’re doing, and also everything else you have going on personally right now. Carla: [44:45] Thank you so much for having me.

If you’re like most people I cross paths with out there, talking about your accomplishments or showcasing your achievements may not come that naturally to you. Communicating your successes can feel like you’re bragging or shamelessly self-promoting. Asking for what you want can feel intrusive or presumptuous. And just sharing your own accomplishments with others can feel awkward or forced. At the same time, if you don’t advocate for yourself, you run the risk of disappearing into the background. If you don’t drive visibility for your work, no one may be aware of your accomplishments. And if you don’t ask for what you want, opportunities are unlikely to just fall into your lap. In episode 98 of the Career Relaunch® podcast, Claudia Bruce-Quartey, a political scientist turned key manager shares her thoughts on why making a career change often involves a leap of faith and why you have to be the one to advocate for what you want. I also share some thoughts on how I manage the delicate balance between modesty and self-advocacy during the Mental Fuel® segment. Key Career Change Insights Focus on the things you can control, not those you cannot. Sometimes, you just have to take a leap of faith in your career and jump. The onus is on you to make yourself seen and heard in your career. Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, my challenge to you is to pick one aspect of your work that you feel deserves more . . . and to advocate for it. Maybe it’s a project you feel deserves more visibility within your organization. Or an overdue promotion you feel is worth getting onto your manager’s radar. Or a piece of career news you’ve been keeping to yourself but want to share with your network. Whatever it is, take ownership of your career and proactively promote it. If you don’t advocate for it, you can be sure others won’t either. And you might just be surprised how people respond. Episode Chapters 00:00:00 Overview 00:01:07 Introduction 00:03:44 Discussion with Claudia Bruce-Quartey 00:42:38 Mental Fuel 00:48:45 Listener Challenge 00:49:25 Wrap Up About Claudia Bruce-Quartey Claudia Bruce-Quartey has followed a career path that’s required self-advocacy throughout. Raised in as a first-generation immigrant after her parents moved there from Ghana, Claudia eventually completed her Master’s Degree in Public istration in and most recently relocated to Switzerland. Originally a political scientist with no knowledge of IT, Claudia’s now a Key Manager for the software company Red Hat. She also ionately works with underrepresented youth and female professionals to help them confidently speak about their accomplishments and ask for what they want in their careers. With over 8 years of experience in the Swiss Tech industry, Claudia describes herself as an agent for transformation, on a mission to create equal representation and opportunities. She’s also the author of the book My Hair, My Choice, a book that encourages young children to understand that being unique and different is great. Follow Claudia on LinkedIn and Instagram. her newsletter to learn more about how to cultivate confidence at work. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android to get each new episode on your device automatically. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph Liu on most major social media platforms.  Connect with Joseph Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered in future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!  Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to Grammarly for ing Career Relaunch The Grammarly app finds and corrects spelling and grammar mistakes to make your writing more clear and concise, leveraging AI to make suggestions based on your context and preferred writing style. I use it nearly every day myself across all my desktop applications, Office documents, and mobile device. Grammarly for free at CareerRelaunch.net/Grammarly. Interview Segment Music Credits Bio Unit – Fairground Podington Bear – Floating in Space Podington Bear – Three Colors Podington Bear – Big Blue Podington Bear – Sunbeam Podington Bear – Sidecar Bio Unit – Docking Episode’s Interview Transcript Joseph: Hello, Claudia. Welcome to the Career Relaunch Podcast. It is so great to talk to you on this show. Claudia: [03:50] Hi, Joseph. Thank you so much for having me. Joseph: Okay. Well, let’s get started by first of all talking about what you have been focused on at this moment, in both your personal and professional life. What’s been keeping you busy? Claudia: [04:04] My children. First and foremost, I’m a mother. I’m a mother of two. We are about to head into the big summer break. This is what’s keeping me busy. Also, preparing everything at work in order to make the transition to holidays as smooth as possible. I am a key count manager working for a major open-source software company in Switzerland, and this is kind of my main job. Secondly, I help women advocate for themselves. That’s what I do ionately and I love doing that. So, these are the three key things that are keeping me busy. If not, it’s summertime, I love going out with my bike. Joseph: Sounds good. Let’s take those one at a time here. You said mother of two, you got summer vacation coming up. How do you balance your ongoing demands as a key manager there at Red Hat? With idea that I’m assuming, your kids are not going to be in school most of the day. How do you balance that on a practical and personal level? Claudia: [05:02] I think the key word here is flexibility. And then, my partner, of course, helps me out a lot with regard to how we manage our schedules. The key part here is really flexibility. Being able to do remote. The pandemic has done us, actually somehow, a great favor in understanding that you can do your most effective work without having to be on-site every single time. That’s one thing. And then, setting the expectations with customers, but also at home, and setting boundaries. I think this is the most important part. Joseph: Before we go back into your past, can you also explain just a little bit about what you do as a key manager for Red Hat? What’s your day-to-day look like? Claudia: [05:49] The easiest part to say is that I work in sales. I’m a key manager. As a key manager, my day-to-day job consists of helping customers through digital transformation. Every customer today needs to be at the forefront of innovation, at the forefront of their competition, and be successful. That is through tech and through IT. My job as a key manager is that I roughly about six s on this transformation with the solution to their open-source solution that provides. The easiest way to understand is that everything that happens in the background. When things run smoothly, that’s how Red Hat provides its services. When something breaks, you know where to find us. That’s the easiest way to describe it. Joseph: Well, I know that you haven’t always been a key manager for Red Hat. You haven’t always worked in sales. In fact, you are in a very, very different sector before. I would love to hear more about your time working in political science when you started off your career. And then, we can move forward from there. Maybe the best way to start here is just to get an understanding of, how did you get interested in political science originally? Claudia: [07:02] That’s true. I never even anticipated being in sales or being in the tech industry. Everything that had to do with STEM, it was repellent to me. So, when I graduated and then started studying in 2010, for me, naturally, I gravitated towards international organizations, and then also policies. Not per se, being involved in politics. That’s a big misconception for anyone that thinks, “Okay. You’re going to political science to become a politician.” It’s not that. For me, it was really integrating international organizations, being in international relations, the United Nations or European Union, being in one of these institutions. With that being said, there were no sales involved; there was no tech involved or so I thought. That was kind of where I started off and where I really found myself. I thought that this would be my career. Joseph: Now, I was just in Washington, DC last month, Claudia. I used to live and work there many years ago.  Have you been to DC before? Claudia: [08:15] I’ve been to DC last year. Joseph: Okay. You’ve been there recently. One of the things you might notice about DC is it’s one of those places where the professional scene is kind of unique compared to other major cities. Because there are people there who certainly work in the more traditional corporate for-profit world, but you’ve got a lot of professionals there. Especially, young professionals — me, including, when I lived there, who are much more focused on the non-profit, governmental, more social policy-type, cause-based organizations. So, that’s what I would describe as a major split in the professional world. Why were you originally drawn to that world, and not initially the more corporate-like, more for-profit side of the professional world? Claudia: [09:05] Some is also part of my heritage. I’m originally from Ghana. I was born and raised in Hanover, . For me, I wanted to create an impact that would either help advance our community or help advance Africa, in general. That’s why also, international relations was so important to me to be able to shape policies or shape programs that would help advance Africa as a whole. More importantly, also Ghana, and then also the Ghanaian community within Hanover. So, that is the reason why I was rather drawn towards that. Also 2010, 2012, there were lots of different programs out there, especially for young people. For me, I was a youth mentor also. Everything and anything around helping the youth out, and with regards to their professional development, with regards to their integration into society, is something I was very, very much drawn to. I wanted to professionalize that. The European Union, at that point in time, first of all, there were not a lot of people that looked like me inside of this organization. So, for me, it was really, “Okay, I can make an impact here with my voice and also with my work.” So, that’s the reason why I was naturally drawn to that. Joseph: How were those early days for you as you were looking for professional opportunities in that space? How did that transpire for you? Claudia: [10:27] Lots of these opportunities come through either connections or just sheer hard work. Because for me, I had different types of opportunities, of course. Lots of them were either very, very short-term or were entry-level positions. For example, I used I lived also in Paris during my studies. At the same time, I was working. I was working for a governmental institution over there. It was very short-lived, number one. It was faced by multiple short-lived opportunities, that’s one thing. Secondly, the pay wasn’t also the best, to be transparent. I was looking at myself and the vision that I had created about myself of what it means to be what I thought would be successful, and that was not it. To have a master’s degree and still be struggling in finding a real proper job and a long-term job. This is kind of also where I was really questioning myself whether or not this is the path that I want to take. Even though I love it, I wasn’t sure whether my love, my ion for the field would sustain me there. Joseph: That’s really interesting, Claudia. One of the things I hear from people as they are either embarking on a new career path or even just the career path they had thought they wanted to go on is sometimes, the going is a bit rough and it’s a bit bumpy. I suppose one of the decisions you have to make is, do I keep trying to make it in this industry or do I walk away and do something else? How did you think about that? How could you tell when you should keep trying and when you should call it quits? Claudia: [12:12] That’s very much a good question because I struggled with that a lot. Because I was looking, “Okay. What are the skills that I can actually apply within this industry or within the field I was working in?” So, I speak five languages. Maybe anything around languages, and could help sort of translation jobs. For example, I was one in more facilitating conferences. So, there are a lot of different areas actually within the field, which is great. The field is very rich. Again, finding these opportunities, at least for me, posts to be a challenge. As I was also growing, and graduating, life caved in. I got married. Also, I had a baby. This is what’s really the turning point for me. To get an understanding is that, “Okay. First, I’m single and I can hustle.” But, with someone else in this world where she depends completely on you, on you to make it happen, things shifted very quickly for me. To me, the turning point was in 2015, when I had been in a position that absolutely had nothing to do with what I had studied. It was an entry-level sales position. I got to the realization, “This cannot be it. There has to be a better way.” To be honest, I didn’t know what this looked like. I certainly didn’t think that it was IT. I just knew something else has to come up for me. Joseph: Let’s talk about the transition that you went through here. Things are taking a little bit longer than maybe you had expected to gain some traction in the political science world. You have gotten married. You’ve got a baby. Now, you’re feeling like the phase of life that you’re in right now might require you to reconsider your career options. Take me through the transition as you went from what was political science to then eventually a sales role. The first question I have about this is, how easy was it for you to let go of the idea of pursuing political science? Claudia: [14:14] That was very difficult. Because I chose political science after having taken a break from my studies for a year. So, when I did my A-Level degree, I went to for a year to find myself, to find what it is that I want to do. I knew, again, nothing about STEM. I knew the law wouldn’t cut it. Because also in Ghanaian communities, either you become a lawyer, a doctor, or a banker. These are the three career paths that you’re open with. Anything else, we don’t know, so you don’t pursue it. So, I have to find something where I can still become successful, and political science was that field where I could bring so much of my abilities into it. And then, studying it, doing my bachelor’s degree, doing my master’s degree in , and then not finding a job in which I could thrive, not finding ground in a field that I had studied and had worked in for some time was very tough. I was like, “Now, I’m out of my studies, I need to have a proper job. I need to have a contract.” It was the very basic necessities of, I have a job, I have a contract, there’s a long-term thing and I see myself progressing in that career. I didn’t see that. Then, I was like, “Okay. Will I keep doing things that are not working and dragging my entire family into it? Or, will I start opening up my eyes towards opportunities that are out there?” So, I started then, not randomly, I would say more openly applying to jobs that were outside of my field. Some had the sales component to it but definitely not the role that I’m currently in and the career I’m currently pursuing. Joseph: I know along the way, if I’ve got the timing right here, I’m just going to broadly describe them, as the stop-gap or like transitional hold-yourself-over-for-a-while jobs. Claudia: [16:16] Yes, lots of things. Joseph: Can you give me a sampling of what were some of the other jobs you took just to make ends meet, just to hold you over while you figured this out? Claudia: [16:23] Wait tables. I was a waitress. I was teaching children at some point in time. I did translation jobs along the way. I help people with some istrative work also. It’s really little petty jobs that kept me along the way, that kept me afloat. I was a tour guide for a very, very short amount of time. Joseph: In ? Claudia: [16:48] In , right. What are the odds, right? I’m from Hanover, . I am Ghanaian. I go to and became a tour guide. It was a very, very short amount of time. Somebody couldn’t fill the role, so I hopped in. I also promoted flyers. Different kinds of brands and shops and just works outside giving out flyers and promoting flyers. The accumulation of that brought more and more frustration, very much frustration. Because it wasn’t steady. There was no strategy behind it. It was just, “Okay. What am I doing to get to the next paycheck?” To me, that wasn’t it. I just had a much bigger vision about myself and where I wanted to see my family than what I was currently doing. Joseph: How long did that period last for you? Claudia: [17:40] Right after my pregnancy, I think about a year and a half. To me, it was an eternity. Joseph: Yeah. I’ve had those phases in my career also. I have actually waited tables briefly also. I worked in a retail store for a while. It can feel like a very long time, these transitional periods. Even though we’re talking a few months to a year, it can feel like an eternity. You eventually decided to do a masters in , as I understand it. What did pursuing an advanced degree allow you to do? Claudia: [18:15] In 2010, exactly, I was still pursuing a career in political science. I had not let go of that idea. I thought, “All right. Well, let me have an advanced degree. Let me have it in a foreign country to open up my chance to be considered for roads inside of the European Union, inside of the big NGOs.” Because this was the profile that they were looking for. Somebody that is international, versatile, has done several things and understands the system. To me, it was like, “Oh, great!” It opened up opportunities. Again, being able to work in some of the French institutions, in different cities, in Paris. At the end of the day, it all didn’t help me to really build the career that I was looking for. It helped me today, absolutely. Because I think all of the experiences that I made moving from to and then coming here to Switzerland, have absolutely helped me. Because I know today, for a fact, that it is my stop in that helped make the transition to Switzerland very smoothly because I speak French. Joseph: So, how did you eventually make your foray into the tech industry and the sales role? What was the first breakthrough for you in that sector? Claudia: [19:37] There was a program that was being run by Cisco. Cisco, at that point in time, was looking for junior sales representatives. The way it was conveyed to me was, “Hey! Yes, this is a tech industry, but look at all the things that IT touches.” This is where I started to listen up. I was like, “Hey, it’s true.” To me, the perception of tech was you have to code; you have to be a nerd. When I was studying, the people that I saw pursuing anything in tech or engineering were nerds. When they opened up their textbooks, I understood absolutely nothing. This is not the field that I want to be in. But this program was completely different. This program was something that I was already doing but just realized was sales. In every type of industry or every type of job also that I got, and being qualified/overqualified, I was still able to sell myself somehow and sell the fact that I’m the best candidate for this position. That type of presentation skills, that type of sales skills, helped me then make the transition. Again, it was, someone saw my CV, and being headhunted. Someone saw my CV and said, “Hey. We believe you’ll be great in this industry. You would be great for this particular company.” I just gave it my all. I just gave it my all. I said, “Okay. I have nothing to lose at this point in time. I am jobless, so let me go.” Joseph: Before we started recording, Claudia, when we spoke before, you had said that navigating careers for women can be quite lonely, costly, and scary, without a system or without some sort of a road map. What were those early days like for you in a brand-new industry in tech, in sales? Do you what it was like? Claudia: [21:34] In Switzerland? Joseph: Yes, in Switzerland. Claudia: [21:38] Yes in Switzerland, definitely. It was definitely a moment. The beginning was very exciting. Going through all of the interviews, and being given the prospect of ing an industry that gives you the chance to establish a career. That was what I was going for, the idea that I had. I didn’t know what I actually signed up for. I didn’t know that I was g up for an industry that was chronically underrepresented by women, and then women that look like me. Women that were at the intersection of women, Black, mothers. So, I fell into a very, very traditional company then at that point in time. It was, yes, Cisco, but there was a partner in between. So, I worked with a partner organization. Yes, even though there were small bits of , it was very lonely and very scary. Because I had no knowledge and no background in IT. I had no knowledge, and no background in sales, besides the academy and the sales program that I went through. It was pretty much that I was pushed into the cold water to start doing the job. Which, in the end, helped me get into the job and get the ropes of this job much faster. It is because, naturally, I’m a person that doesn’t give up easily. I can tell you that I shed lots of tears. I think six months into Switzerland, I was very much doubting whether or not this was the right decision to take, to make, and to bring my family here. Joseph: This is probably a hard question to answer but, how much of that challenge do you feel you attribute to just the fact of being in a completely new industry? How much of that do you attribute to being an underrepresented minority female in the tech industry? Claudia: [23:22] Sometimes, one or the other plays more. Because, in the beginning, again, I went in with an open mind. I didn’t go in with, “Okay. I’m a woman. I don’t see a lot of women here, so this might be it.” I was trying to understand what will this industry give me and how can I apply my knowledge, and be more knowledgeable. Because in my understanding, if you become more knowledgeable, things will get easier. That was, for me, the baseline. What can I do professionally? What can I control? The fact that I’m a woman, or I’m a Black woman, or a mother; these are things I cannot control. So, I focus on the things that I can control. When you then go up the industry, move up the ladder, and then there are still certain glass ceilings that you face, there’s where you start questioning. When you walk into every single room and you’re the first or the only. When you are being questioned on certain things that your male colleagues are not being questioned on. When you face challenges that you make clearly don’t even recognize as challenges. Here’s where you stop asking yourself, “Hey, is this normal or is this because I’m a woman?” So, yes, in the beginning, it was really the knowledge gap. Then, eventually, very quickly, I understood it is not just knowledge. It’s really very much also the fact that, surely, there are not enough women here. Joseph: I do want to come back to this topic toward the end of our conversation. Because I think it’s an important one that navigating, not only being a minority in of your experience, but also minority in of how you look, where you’re from, and being underrepresented in that way. Right now, I would be interested to hear about the evolution of your career in the face of all this challenge, you did manage to actually progress and navigate your way through the tech sales world. Can you describe what was the evolution like for you going from that first role at Cisco to what you’re now doing for Red Hat? Claudia: [25:20] I started really at the bottom. Meaning, I was a business development representative. Even though my title was manager, my role was entitled to bring in new business. This is really business development. Meaning, cold calling, prospecting all these types of things. And then, further down the line, there was the evolution in management after I had gained knowledge, after I had understood really how do our solutions help our customers, and how can we also help broaden the market. I started really with small and mid-sized companies, to prospect on them. And then, further down the line, I became an manager properly for mid-sized companies. Also, completely leading the French-speaking market for the company I was then working with. Also, as a second — this is where really everything that I learned within politics science came in, was building their relationship with our external partners. That was very much important also in transitioning into that role solidifying that relationship that we had with external partners. Joseph: That’s interesting you mentioned political science. Because, obviously, one of the major challenges and I guess opportunities in any organization is to be able to navigate the politics of the organization. I know you mentioned that you could feel it playing out in your current workplace. Can you just share more details on how did that training and education in political science end up benefiting you in a completely, and seemingly, unrelated industry? Claudia: [26:57] One major factor that attributes to the success I find currently, and also the rewards that I find currently, is my ability to communicate, my ability to present in complex environments and situations, and build the bridge between how a tech solution can help the business. That’s one thing. Within political science, mostly also, you have lots of data. When you go through lots of data sets, you have to make sense. You have to make sense with the data that you have for different stakeholders. This is also something that I do day-to-day; convincing stakeholders, internally and externally. In external, the solution that we’re providing is the best one. So, I would say communication, definitely. Stakeholder relationship also, secondly. And then, reading the room. As in something I would even say, very intuitively, understanding the dynamics of the room. Understanding, “Okay. Can you bring this to the table or not? Can you have this discussion right now or not? Or do you need to convince different stakeholders individually before you come to the bigger table?” This is very much politics. Joseph: Well, before we talk about a few of the lessons you’ve learned along the way of your very interesting career change journey, Claudia, I would be remiss if I didn’t ask you a little bit more about your life in sales. For anybody who’s interested in switching into sales, and maybe this is someone who has had zero exposure to sales, has maybe had no experience in sales, what’s something that you think they should know that you wished you had known about the world of sales before making the decision to pursue that route? Claudia: [28:44] I think one thing that I encourage everyone to do is first, just give it a try. There’s a huge misconception about what sales is. We have sleazy car salesmen or women that are trying to oversell you and underdeliver. But, in essence, professional selling, there’s an art and there’s a science to it that entails lots of different elements. Such as negotiation skills, communication skills, and consulting. It is really the consultative approach that, to me, was very appealing inside this industry. If you look at the challenges that customers and companies face today in order to serve their customers better, it is through technology that we help them advance. If you have any type of transversal skill; such as being a good writer, being a good communicator, being a mathematician also, any of these transversal skills that they have. So, being very analytical, being structured. These are the types of characteristics, hard skills, and soft skills, that are being currently looked out for at companies. The most important lesson is just give it a try. Don’t limit yourself. Joseph: That’s a good point, Claudia. I don’t know if I told you this before, but many years ago, I sold life insurance for a large financial institution in Hawaii. I have to say before I went into sales — and this is coming from somebody who was going to pursue a career in medicine. I would say that I did have a sort of a negative perception of the sales industry. Like, pushing products and services onto people, trying to convince and persuade people to buy things they don’t really need. I have to say, I really had my eyes opened when I was in that sales internship. That it is a lot of times about helping people. It’s about helping people identify what can actually benefit them in their right careers. What’s one or two skills that you feel you’ve actually developed as someone in sales that you feel have been especially important to you, in both your professional life but also in your personal life? Claudia: [30:54] Being able to help people. We have the notion, or at least, I have the notion that if we help people, it has to be non-profit. You cannot help people if you are for profit. Being in a professional sales field can show me, first of all, it is your job to be able to help people. If you want to do it right, you really have to get an understanding of what is currently going on in an industry and how your solution can help them. So, very much developing that skill of understanding, that listening skill, was something that I had developed in the past. Being in this industry for so long and for the past eight years has really helped me develop that skill even further down the line. Also, just keep up with the trends of what is going on in your field.  I mean, what are the next tech trends? What is the next way? What are the next challenges that companies will be facing? These are the things that I have developed even furthermore. Joseph: Well, the last thing I want to talk about before we wrap up, Claudia, are just some of the key takeaways that you’ve had from your career change journey. I know that one of the things you’re ionate about is the idea that women and underrepresented minorities should advocate for themselves and to speak about their accomplishments in a way that raises their profiles within their current organization and beyond. You had shared a few takeaways from your journey with me before we started speaking. I was hoping we could go through them one at a time. You shared three with me. First, you mentioned that courage is especially important for women. Tell me more about what you mean by that. Claudia: [32:36] I believe courage is so important because, especially when you are from an underrepresented group, I mean women, minority, whatever it is. At times, speaking up for yourself and speaking about accomplishments is very difficult. In the absence of confidence, what do you have? There’s fear and there is a limiting belief. So, how do you overcome that? It is by finding courage and just making the jump. That’s why courage is so important. Because at times, you just don’t have the elements of confidence. For me, that was it. I didn’t have the elements of confidence that I could succeed in an industry, succeed in a role, succeed in a country, that I knew nothing about. So, the only thing that I was left with was my courage to just take a leap of faith, jump, and see what is going to happen. That is why I encourage everyone just find it within you to jump. Joseph: What are a couple of ways that you feel people can advocate for themselves? You had mentioned to me before we start recording that you got to advocate for your accomplishments, and you’ve got to successfully position yourself so that you can be considered for promotion, raises, and opportunities. Claudia: [33:52] Absolutely. I think one of the most important things is to write down every single week — and I’m going to make it very actionable because this is one thing I do. It’s that every single week, block your calendar for 20 minutes and write down 10 things about why you are great, of the things that you do very well. Whether it’s a presentation that you failed; whether it is a co-worker that you helped out; or whether it is a new business that you brought in. Write those things down. Because the misconception is that people see you. The wake-up call is people don’t see you. Especially, with women, we work and work and work, because we think somebody will see us. But, one thing I’ve seen is that, when we work hard in school, we get good grades. When you transmit that same mindset into the workplace, you get frustrated and burnt out because people simply don’t see you. People have their own things on their plate. So, if you don’t advocate for yourself, you’ll be ed by promotions, and salary increases. So many opportunities will just you by because you’re not making yourself seen, known, and heard. So, it is your job to really write down those accomplishments, set a one-to-one with your manager, and say, “Here are the three things that I’ve done. Here are the five things that I’ve done that’s helped advance the company. Do you notice, first of all? Can we maybe think about a promotion? Can we talk about a salary increase? Can we talk about my professional growth inside this organization?” Joseph: Yeah. It’s a really good tip, Claudia. As you were sharing that story, I was just thinking about — this might not seem like it’s related. Actually, I was on an airplane yesterday and there were these guys who were trying to catch a connecting flight to South Africa. We were landing in London, and our plane was delayed. They were just standing there in line, and a woman behind him actually said, “Why don’t you just ask people if they can let you through?” Because they were just standing there. They did. And then, people let them through. She was saying, “I don’t know why they didn’t ask for that earlier?” I do think it’s important to not assume that people know what you want but to actually verbalize it, articulate it, and be very specific about what you’re looking for. Claudia: [36:00] We think that people will say no. Very specifically, HBR released a study on how women negotiate. The sad truth about this is women negotiate four times less than men, and women start also with a much lesser salary than men. So, what did accumulate to is that not just are you leaving money on the table, but you’re also leaving money out of your pension, out of any dream that you can aspire to. But, simply by asking, just having the courage to ask, you can really up your salary in a very easy way. Without having to learn the ins and outs of negotiation skills, but just simply asking. Joseph: The third and final point here is that you mentioned the currency for pivoting careers is your professional network. What would you like people to know about the importance of their professional relationships? Claudia: [37:01] This is something I learned very late in my career because one that that, retrospectively, I believe would have made my transition within political science way easier would have been if I had an established network. I did not have any establishment program. Within my family or my close immediates, there was no one that was in the industry I was in, the working industry that I wanted. In IT, in the first place, also no. One thing that helped me a lot was building up a professional network. That network became really my currency with regard to opportunities; job opportunities, and professional development. So, I encourage each and everyone, especially women, to build up that network as soon as possible, if you haven’t done so. If you’re looking especially to pivot into careers, or transition into different careers, such as how we doing now. The easiest way is to reach out to someone in a career that you’re interested in, that is completely different from the one that you are in currently and to have a conversation. Ask, “Okay. What is your day-to-day? How do you become successful in this role? What does it take? You might find that it’s not as far-fetched as you think. That career transition can become much easier and much smoother than if you’re just all by yourself and trying to figure things out all by yourself. Joseph: I was hoping to wrap up by asking you a couple of final questions about some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way. Also, I want to ask you about your book. What’s one thing that you’ve learned about yourself now that you have successfully broken into the tech industry as someone who, at least on the surface, initially, maybe didn’t seem like you had any business being in that industry? Claudia: [38:43] I learned about myself that I have an innate value, and that value is growth. I’ll find to grow in no matter what industry. To me, in the beginning, it was just sheer frustration. Why can’t I make it? Why can’t I become successful? It’s because I had the value of growth. So, today, if I approach companies, this is the first thing that I bring onto the table. What are the possibilities in which I can grow? Because I’ll find them. If I don’t find them inside, I’ll find them outside. That’s I think the biggest lesson. The second one is very much that if I have courage and I stop limiting my beliefs, I can achieve what I want to achieve. I can also reach out to ask other people for help, and that is not a bad thing to do. I don’t have to figure it all out by myself. Joseph: You also wrote a book called, My Hair, My Choice. What’s that book about? Claudia: [39:36] The book, My Hair, My Choice, is a book I wrote for my daughter when she was around 7 years old. She had an encounter at school that wasn’t so pleasant about her hair, about the afro hair that she has. I had that experience too when I was much younger. I wanted to give my daughter an empowering narrative. Because I understand that there will be times when she has to become an ally for herself where nobody will stand up such as when she added incidents in school, and I wanted to give her something that will remind her of her beauty and her strength. So, the book, My Hair, My Choice, is that narrative that she can carry her hair any way she wants, and this is her power, her superpower.  Being different is completely normal and being different is your choice. That’s why the book, “My Hair, My Choice,” was written. Joseph: I’m definitely going to check that out. We will include a link to that book in the show notes. Where can people go, Claudia, to learn more about you, and also how they can advocate for themselves in the workplace? Claudia: [40:39] The easiest way that I hang around lot on LinkedIn. You can connect with me at “Claudia Bruce Quartey,” LinkedIn. You connect with me also on my website. I’d be happy to chat with you. Yeah, you mentioned that, in order to help you advocate for yourself, I developed a guide, a very short sweet guide that you can in which you can write down what other things that make you remarkable, what are the things that make you great, and start advocating for yourself. Joseph: We’ll include a link to that resource also in the show notes. I just really wanted to thank you so much for your generosity in giving us some of your time today and telling us more about your life as a key manager, how you broke into that industry, and also just the importance of advocating for yourself in the workplace. Especially, if you’re someone who is coming from an underrepresented background. Best of luck to you, Claudia, with all of your work there at Red Hat. I hope it continues to go well for you. Claudia: [41:40] Thank you so much, Joseph, for having me.

When things aren’t going well in your career or you’re experiencing a lot of job dissatisfaction, deciding whether make a career change may seem more straightforward. However, when things are going well, do you keep riding the wave, or do you make the leap and try something new? In episode 97 of the Career Relaunch® podcast, Aisling Drennan, a former Riverdance Irish dancer turned artist shares her thoughts on shifting from an international stage to an art studio. We’ll discuss the inevitable challenges involved with starting anything new, the deeply personal choice of when to walk away from an established career, and the importance of championing your own work. I also share some thoughts on when you can tell the time has come to move on during the Mental Fuel® segment. Key Career Change Insights You can’t know everything from the start. You have to figure it out along the way. It’s about giving yourself time and accepting the inevitable mistakes along the way. Y You can’t be the champion of everything, but you have to be your own champion of your own work and ambition. If making a career change was easy, everyone would be doing it. You have to constantly ask yourself, is this what I want to do? If yes, you must find a way to make this work. Deciding exactly when to leave your job behind is a very personal choice. On the one hand, you could leave on a high note, knowing you may still have left to give and gain. On the other, you could leave after you feel like you’ve given everything you can, although it can result in dissatisfaction, burnout, and even resentment. Expect the early days to be tough. Starting is often the hardest phase when you’re embarking on a new career path. However, if you know you’re doing what you want to do, with enough hard work and tenacity, you’ll turn a corner. Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I discussed how to decide whether the time has come to pursue another path in your career. Consider whether you have: A) anything else to gain, B) more you could give, C) more you actually want to give. The choice is ultimately yours. I just encourage you to not overextend yourself too much and to walk away once you feel that deep down, the time is right to move on. About Aisling Drennan, Abstract Expressionist Painter Aisling Drennan used to be a former professional Irish dancer with Riverdance, performing internationally for almost a decade with her sketchbook and paint box in her suitcase. Originally from County Clare, Ireland, she dedicated the earlier parts of her life touring around the world, and dancing professionally. However, she eventually began a gradual, steady career transition into the world of art. She’s now a full-time, abstract expressionist painter, balancing her artistic endeavors with motherhood after the birth of her son in early 2022. Based in London, she now creates her artwork at Delta House Studios, where you can check out her paintings along with work from several other artists. Most recently Aisling Drennan’s work was selected for The Royal Cambrian Academy of Art’s annual exhibition (2023) & Gordan Ramsay’s new restaurant in the Savoy Hotel, London (2021). Drennan was an artist in residence at Cill Rialaig Artists Centre (2019), and her work has been shortlisted for the John Moore’s painting prize (2018). She was Fujitsu’s featured artist for a global media campaign (2017) and has received the Freyer Award for excellence in contemporary painting from the Royal Dublin Society of Arts (2011). Drennan has been noted by State magazine as “one to watch” Aisling will be exhibiting her art at The Other Art Fair in London, June 29 – July 2. To meet her and check out her paintings, stop by to see her there at Stand 92. Learn more about Aisling, watch her painting in action, and follow her on Instagram. Also, if you’ve never seen Riverdance which recently celebrated its 25th anniversary of touring, this clip gives you a little taste of the show! Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare, Tweet to let me and ___________ know!  Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android to get each new episode on your device automatically. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph Liu on most major social media platforms.  Connect with Joseph Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered in future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!  Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to Audible for ing Career Relaunch Thanks to Audible for ing this episode of the Career Relaunch® podcast. Audible is the premier provider of digital audiobooks, offering over 600,000 audiobook titles for listening anytime and anywhere on your favorite device. Career Relaunch® listeners can a free audiobook and get 30-day trial at audibletrial.com/careerrelaunch. Interview Segment Music Credits Bio Unit – Ground Effect Leimoti – Leave a Mark Owen Meyers – Horisont Cora Zea – Velvet Uniform Podington Bear – Sepia Scott Holmes Music – Shimmer Bio Unit – Fairground Howard Harper-Barnes – The Promising Episode Interview Transcript Joseph: Good morning, Aisling. Welcome to the Career Relaunch Podcast. It’s great to have you on the show. I’m really excited to talk with you about your time both as a dancer and also now as an artist. Aisling: [03:17] Good morning, Joseph. I am very pleased to be here chatting with you. It’s always such a pleasure when people have an interest in what I do, so thank you. Joseph: Well, let’s jump into it. Let’s talk, first of all, about what you have been focused on right now in your career and your life. What has been keeping you busy both personally and also professionally? Aisling: [03:37] I’ve just finished a new series of paintings. They were just shown last weekend because I’ve got a studio at Delta House Studios in Cyprus, London. We do open studio events twice a year. One in June, one in October, where everybody can come along, meet the maker, see where the work is made. So, it’s finishing new work for that. It’s been pretty busy. And then, I have a couple of things coming up, career-wise. I’m doing the other art fair at the end of the month. I’ve got a couple of shows lined up for the winter, and a few fun things in between. And then, personally, things are good. I have a one-year-old. It’s keeping me very busy. I suppose I’ve had a big life change of being pregnant and given birth, having a baby, coming back to work, and finding all that balance. It’s been a real roller coaster but in the best way and sort of finding my feet again. I guess you lose your identity a bit, and then you come back into it. I feel like I’ve just come back to finding my identity, getting back into painting, back into the studio, and getting everything moving again. Joseph: Two questions on a couple of things you just mentioned there. First of all, you mentioned you’re a new mother. What have you found to be the biggest challenge around balancing parenting with your work as an artist? Aisling: [04:56] I have my own business. So, if I’m not working on it, nobody else is doing it. I think it was very important to me to get back into the studio and keep things running while I was managing a newborn and everything that comes along with that so much. I think I was probably a wee bit optimistic because I came back to work when my son, Caolàn, was four months old. I thought, “It’d be fine! I’ll do it. It’s grand.” It didn’t really work out like that. I guess that’s one of the things I’ve learned that your time is no longer just your time. Your time has to be shared and prioritize with him. As we, my husband and I, have moved along, because he has his own business as well, we’ve managed to juggle. Actually, that’s a real good thing about each of us having our own business. We’re not set to somebody else’s time. It’s purely our time so we can manage things around the baby, which is quite good. That, and I think the identity thing, which I wasn’t prepared for because you step into a whole new pair of shoes being a mother and you get lost in that because you’re learning so much. And then, you come back into your work, which I love what I do. I’ve really worked hard to get to where I am. And then, you have to find it all again. You have to find yourself. It’s sort of an interesting new path. Like, I’m the same person but I’m different. I’m still finding my way around that. Joseph: It is a challenge flipping back and forth between your identity as a mother, and also your identity as a professional. And, being able to go back and forth multiple times within the same day can be quite jarring. Aisling: [06:37] Quite jarring. I think it’s all because this is like my studio, and my painting, my art practice is my — I don’t want to say my “other child,” that sounds the wrong thing. But, it’s not like I’m going to work for somebody else. This is very much mine. It’s all that more important to me. It keeps moving, and progressing, and developing. I think in the long term, that’s going to be such a good lesson for Caolàn as he grows up and he sees what me and his dad do. Because my husband’s an architect, so he has his own practice as well in his own studio. I think it’ll all be good but we’re just finding our way, which is exciting as well. I mean, look, this is the essence of life, isn’t it? You just figure it all out as you go. Joseph: Well, I want to get back into also your professional life here. I know you mentioned you’re an artist. What kind of artist are you, and what do you enjoy doing as an artist? Aisling: [07:26] I am an abstract expressionist painter. My work would be rooted in the materiality of paint. That would mean just literally getting stuck into the wonderful nuances of paint, and what you can do with it, and how you can play with it, and manipulate it. I won an Irish residency in 2019 that completely changed the direction of my work. All my work is now based on rock landscapes, extracting from those spaces. These are landscapes back in Ireland. Obviously, I’m from Ireland. You can tell from my accent. I go and sit on-site and make studies and bring them back into my studio here in London, and literally, abstract from them. It’s a very processed way of working. Because I’ve just finished this new series of work, I’m still finding my feet with discussing it, which is a weird thing. Because you think of it all visually in your head, and then you have to vocalize that when you’re talking about it, so it’s an ongoing thing. Joseph: I think art is probably one of the hardest things to describe in words to others. Just by definition, it is difficult to put into words. Aisling: [08:34] Yeah. Well, that’s why like what I mentioned at the top of the conversation, something like open studios is great. Because you get people coming into your studio, and you see their reaction straight off, or they ask you questions that you may not have considered yourself. It’s a wonderful way to interact with the work and with people and build those relationships. If you’re selling through a gallery, you don’t get that same conversation or connection, let’s say. It was wonderful with this new series of work to have people come in and sort of look at it differently from how I’m looking at it. Joseph: Well, I do want to come back to the commercial dynamics of being an artist. You mentioned gallery versus studio versus art show. I do want to get back into that toward the end of the conversation. Right now, what I’d be very interested in doing is going back in time. Because I know you haven’t always been an abstract expressionist painter. You were once a professional Irish dancer. Can you tell us a little bit about your life as a dancer? I suppose the best place to start here is to talk about where you grew up, and what are some of the things you about your childhood growing up in Ireland. Aisling: [09:43] Oh, gosh! I had an amazing childhood in Ireland. I grew up in rural West Coast Ireland. County Clare, North County Clare. Right on the Atlantic Ocean. Just very free, very open, very fresh childhood. Typically, I don’t know if it’s the same now, but growing up in the ’80s Ireland, everyone who went to school there would be an Irish dancing teacher that would come into the school and teach the basics. It was sort of like your physical education in a sense. Both of my parents were dancers. So, they brought my sisters and I along to Irish dancing classes. That’s where it began really. Joseph: Were they professional dancers? Aisling: [10:21] No. It’s the type of thing particularly I think, like where I’m from in Ireland. My parents are both from the west of Ireland as well. Culturally, it will be very normal that like somebody would dance, or somebody would sing, or play an instrument, or something like that. My parents had a hotel and a bar, so there was always music and dancing and something performative going on. You were just always expected to get up and do whatever you were able to do. My parents were both dancers, so there was always dancing in the bar. I just grew up with it very naturally, which is totally normal for that part of Ireland. Then, I started going to Irish dancing classes and started competing. At the time, there was absolutely no sense of being professional. A professional Irish dancer, what is that? No! And then, of course, in 1994, Riverdance arrived on the scene at the Eurovision Song Contest. It just changed the landscape, massively. I was 12 I think when Riverdance was on the Eurovision. I watching it with my family because it was such a big thing in Ireland, the Eurovision. “I want to do that. What is it? I want to do it. I want to know more.” Riverdance obviously went international, and they started to audition people. I auditioned when I was 16, and I got in. I left school for a year to go on tour. Joseph: For those not familiar with Riverdance, it’s this big theatrical show that features traditional Irish music and dance. It’s sort of like the quintessential Irish dance show. As I understand it and as you alluded to, it was originally this interval act at Eurovision. And then, it turned into this huge stage show production in the early ’90s. And now, it’s been seen by over something like 25 million people and is considered to be one of the most successful dance productions in the world. So, kind of a phenomenon. Could you just explain the audition process to get in there? Aisling: [12:20] Thinking about the phenomenon of it, for just anyone who’s not aware of it, I think I performed in over 400 cities in 50 countries over all the continents. And that was over so many years. Just literally touring and touring and touring. So, it was big, big, big. The audition process was, it’s something that I still think about now because I learned so much on that day. It was in Dublin. I got the train up with my mum from Limerick up to Dublin. The train broke down on the way up. Of course, I was really stressing because we were going to be late for the audition. My mom rang the dance director and said, “We’re so sorry. The train is broken down.” She said, “Don’t worry. There are other people on the same train. They’re coming, too.” There was me, and I think three or four other girls. We were all late going into the audition because of the train. We walked into this massive dance studio, lined with mirrors, and everyone is dressed in black with their number after auditioning, and we were the last ones to come in. We have to audition in front of hundreds of other girls and boys. I just thinking, “Oh, gosh. This is so hard!” I think two of the girls that I auditioned with were champions. One was a champion in the year above me, going back to the competitive side. And, one was the champion of my age group, if I correctly. They didn’t both get in. I got in. It was just something that I thought about sort of on reflection that like not everybody can always be the champion. You don’t always win everything. You just have to be your own champion, if that makes sense. It was something that I learned from that process. Because I feeling very intimidated going in with champion dancers. I had done quite well competitively, but I hadn’t won major titles or anything like that. I was late going into the audition. It was just like a complete, “Oh, gosh! This is the worst day of my life.” At 16, when everything is so dramatic. Joseph: Of all days, yeah. Aisling: [14:17] Yeah. So, we got in. What happened at the time was, you started doing workshops, which were, oh, my God, unbelievably hard. I coming out of them and just not being able to walk. My feet were full of blisters and my legs were killing me. It was just a whole different level of training from what I had had competitively like in my dancing school. And then, what they do is at the time is different now. But, at the time, they would send you out on corporate gigs. I was 16 in school, and I was being flown here and there and everywhere to go and perform at all these very fancy events. And then, sitting back down on a Monday morning, “Well, Aisling, how was your weekend?” “Grand.” I was over dancing at that Golden Globe Awards, and they’re used to just meeting all these people. It was mad, but it was great fun. Joseph: How did that work with school? Because you’re 16. I guess for a normal child who’s not performing, you’d be going to classes every day and do whatever you want on the weekend. How did that work with balancing school and being on tour with this huge company? Aisling: [15:22] I didn’t know. I grew up in a very rural, very small part of Ireland. It’s not like there were a whole lot of other distractions. Do you know what I mean? I used to go to school, and then I would come home and have a snack. I would practice my dancing, and then I would do my homework. That was kind of my day-to-day. And then, I will be competing on the weekends. So now, it was just like, “Oh, I might be doing a gig. Like flying off somewhere to do a gig.” It was just, I don’t know, it just rolled into it. And, I was the youngest of three. Joseph: You have two older sisters, right? Aisling: [15:51] Yeah. I have two older sisters. And, one of my sisters ended up in “World of Dance,” which is like another art practice. Joseph: Oh, another big one, yeah. Aisling: [15:59] For my parents, we were just always busy dancing. It was kind of just, you just do it, don’t you? Joseph: Were you thinking that this is what you were going to do after you finished secondary school? Or, what was running through your head during the early years? We’ll get to the later years in a moment. But, just the early years as a child dancing, what were you thinking? How did you think this was going to go? How did you want it to go for you? Or, did you even think about that? Aisling: [16:25] I’ve always been focused and just knew from a very early age what I wanted to do. I just knew I wanted to get into Riverdance, and then I wanted to go to art school, and that was it. I didn’t want to do anything else. Luckily, it’s worked out that way. Because I know a lot of people, it can take time to find what they want to do and find their place. I was just very focused and just started to put the points in place that I needed to make that happen. Joseph: Was there a reason why you wanted to be dancing as part of the show instead of just going straight to art school if that was what you had wanted to do long term? Aisling: [17:03] I knew there was a window for being a professional dancer. I knew I could go to art school at any time. Like on finishing school, I got my place at art school. I knew, “Okay I’ll just defer that for a couple of years, and I’ll go on tour.” I didn’t know how long I wanted to tour or anything. But, my God, it was just an unbelievable experience. In hindsight, it has fared so much into my art practice. Because I was traveling the world. I was getting paid for it. I was so young. I was on tour with great friends, and all the rest of it. I always had my sketchbook in my suitcase and my boxer paints. I would always go and see the museums, or the galleries, or check out shows because I wanted to educate myself. And because I was in these places, for example, in Mexico City, I went to Frida Kahlo’s house, La Casa Azul. And then, to fast forward a couple of years when I was studying arts, and that coming up in the lecture, and I was like, “Oh, God! I was there.” I saw it. I knew it. I was very privileged to have all these experiences that have fed into my art career and that educated me. It was the starting point of my education as an artist. Joseph: What was a typical month like for you as a dancer on this global tour that you were on? Aisling: [18:25] It depends on what company you’re in. Because Riverdance had like — was it two or three full-time companies? There was one company that would tour America, sort of months and end. And then, there was another company that would do Europe. And then, there would be a company doing like Australia and Asia. It depends on which company you were put into. And then, you might have like a month-long residency somewhere, or you might be moving every two weeks. Again, depending on which company you were in. Typically, it would be week by week. Before you would go out on tour, you would do all your rehearsals in Dublin, and then you would be flown out to where you go, and then there would be more rehearsals set up before the opening city, the opening night. And then, everything just goes to plan because you know everyone knows what they’re doing. Joseph: What do you about life as a professional dancer? Let’s talk about both the highs and the lows. Aisling: [19:16] The highs, I think, definitely, I’ll never forget the electricity of doing the final choreography to the — well, I think it was quite iconic, the music of Riverdance. The lights going up, and the audience standing up, and everyone cheering, and just feeling that electricity. It was just amazing. I used to think, “My God! I’m this girl from a very small part of Ireland, and look at me on Broadway,” or “Look at me! I’m in Tokyo,” wherever it was. Making all these people stand up, and feel happy and amazing, and bring them along this wonderful journey that was amazing. I thought that it still stays with me. Lows, I don’t know. I guess, sometimes, it was hard because you were living out of a suitcase for months and months on end. You might miss family events, or the environment sometimes was a little bit tricky. Because you know you were all together all the time. You were working, eating, and socializing. And sometimes, it was a lot. But, I think it was a really good life lesson in managing friendships and learning how to deal with people. Because we were all quite young as well and finding our fate. But, overall, it was an absolute highlight absolutely. Joseph: One of the things, Aisling, I have always wondered about, I suppose as somebody in the audience watching any show is these are you were up there every day every night after night, day after day, I’m assuming performing the same exact choreography pretty much for every show. Did that ever get repetitive? Or, this does not mean to be a leading question. I’ve always just genuinely wondered if it feels repetitive or not. Just because you’re just in the zone when you’re up there. Aisling: [21:07] Yeah. Because I’ve often wondered about Britney Spears. Does she ever get sick of singing “Hit Me, Baby, One More Time”? Joseph: Exactly. Can you really bring the same energy on day one and day 200? Aisling: [21:17] I don’t know. Oh, I just loved it. I really loved it. I mean, if I was still doing it now, I think I’d feel fairly lethargic about doing the same choreography over and over. The music was always amazing. It was with my mates. I was in my 20s. For some people, it may become a little bit repetitive, but no. I love it. I still love it. I hope I will always dance. I don’t dance so much anymore, obviously. I’m a bit past it. The last time I probably danced was at our wedding, and that was amazing. Because I had all my friends from Riverdance there, and we all got up and did Riverdance.  Joseph: Oh, wow! Aisling: [21:56] Yeah. I was the entertainment at my own wedding. Joseph: It was a good wedding to go to, yeah. Aisling: [22:02] Yeah. It was amazing for all the guests, obviously. Joseph: I bet. Aisling: [22:05] I loved that I had those friends. We literally grew up on the road together, and we’re still really good friends. We’re all having kids now, and we’re living in different parts of the world but, we’re still connected. I think that’s so special. I’ll have those relationships for the rest of my life. I have them only because of Riverdance. I owe so much to Riverdance. Really, I owe so much to my parents because they took me to Irish dancing classes, and took me to competitions, which then led me to audition for Riverdance. And then, Riverdance gave me this whole opportunity, which has fed into my art career now. Everything has this linked-up effect, the one thing is fed into the other. All creatively as well, which is lovely. Joseph: It sounds like this was an amazing experience. Probably, one that was very coveted, and sought after. Many kids would probably really enjoy it in many ways. I guess if you’re going to be a dancer, then this is one of the shows to be in. At what point did you decide that you needed to or wanted to start exploring something else and maybe revisiting the idea of pursuing art? Aisling: [23:21] I wanted to go to art school and study it. My mom was an artist, so I had grown up around that context. I do clearly , I was on an American tour, we had a residency in Boston for a month. And then, every morning in the hotel, they would drop the newspapers at my door. I used to take the paper and I bring it down to the dressing room before the show, sitting in the theatre, doing my hair and makeup. I’d be flicking through the paper, what’s going on in the world? In their art section, there was a caption saying, “Leave the stage before the stage leaves you.” It just resounded with me straight away. It was an interview with a Prima Ballerina who was retiring. I just don’t know. Something just clicked. I loved Riverdance, and I didn’t want to lose that feeling and that respect for it. So, I wanted to leave the stage before the stage left me. I wanted to leave the stage on a high with all the love I have for it, rather than just staying there for like the lifestyle, or the money, or just because my friends were there. I wanted to leave there on a good positive note. Because I had seen people who had stayed in the show too long, and they weren’t very happy, and they were a bit negative, and things like that. I just didn’t want that for me. So, that was the point. I knew that that would be my last tour, and that tour was eight months long. I was like, “Right, I can do this.” And then, “All right. I’m going to go back to the art school, and just say I’m going to come next September.” That was it. Joseph: This is such a hard decision, right? On the one hand — I guess you could argue either way. You’re at your best and you’re at your high as a dancer or in any profession. Do you just keep going or do you leave while you’re ahead? I think that’s a real big challenge for a lot of people. Aisling: [25:08] It is. Joseph: Deciding when to leave. Aisling: [25:09] Deciding when to leave. But, sometimes, things just fall into your lap. And sometimes, something will hit you and you just have to go with your gut. Something I’ve learned more and more, the older I get, like to trust your gut and instinct on things like this. I could have stayed there just touring and touring and touring. But then, I wouldn’t have been happy and I would have sort of got the fear of it about what I was going to do next and all that. I feel quite lucky that I had the balls, essentially, to just go. I could have stayed. I was very happy there. They were happy with me. Contracts were coming in. It was all good. But, like made the decision, and just stuck with it, and went for it. Joseph: As I understand it, you went back and did an undergraduate in Fine Arts. And then, you also eventually did a master’s degree in Fine Art, but you were still touring at the time. Is that right? Again, I guess going back to my original question, how did that work out? Aisling: [26:03] I know. I had a really good relationship with Riverdance. When I said I was going to go to art school, they said, “Great!” And then, basically, they offered me work for every summer holiday, or Christmas holiday, or sporadic weeks here and there, where I will go back on tour, which was amazing for me because I was a student. I was going back on tour, making money, coming back into uni, and doing what I needed to do. It just kept me going, basically. And, when I finished my undergrad, I took a year off between doing my master’s degree. I went back on tour for a year to make money, to do my master’s degree. So, thanks to Riverdance, I have no student debt, which is really great. Joseph: It’s another benefit. I we were talking last time, while you’re a student, you did take up a few side jobs. If I it correctly. Waitressing, dog walking. Aisling: [26:58] Everything. Initially, when I left Riverdance and I started my undergrad in Galway on the west coast of Ireland as well, in Riverdance, we had this amazing lifestyle. There would be opening parties, and closing parties, and champagne, and caviar, and all the rest of it. To being a student, where it was like beans on toast and cracked wine on a Wednesday night, or something like that. It was a massive change. It was really good fun and I was up for it and all the rest of it. And then, when I came to London to do my master’s degree, I really had to hustle. Because London is very expensive. I was a student. I was on my own. I didn’t really know anyone here. I was very determined though. I had got my place at Central St. Martins, which I was so happy about because it’s an art school that I had ired. I was thinking about this recently that there was a point my master’s degree was two years. In the second year of my master’s degree, I was nannying three children. I would get up at like 5 a.m., go to their house, get them off for school, get them fed, bring them to school. Then, I would go down to my studio at Central St Martins for a couple of hours do my painting work. Then, I would go to the library, and do my thesis work. Then, I would come back, pick the kids up from school until like do their dinners, everything. Leave them at 7 p.m. Then, I would go to my waitressing job, and waitress to like 11, 12 o’clock. And then, I had to walk a dog because I was living in a house with a very good rent. But, the deal was I had to mind the dog. I was always walking — the morning walk and evening walk, and all the rest of it like so. And now, I look back and I think, “Jesus Christ! How did I do that?” It was so much. But, I think it was just sheer tenacity. I was so determined to keep this going and to make it happen. At the time, in the first house with the dog that I lived with, there was also — it sounds like a joke. There was me, the artist, there was an actress, and a comedian. We used to all rotate around this dog because the man who owned the house was a BBC Rugby commentator. So, he was always going off on rugby tours, and we would mind the dog, and it was just really funny. It was really good for me to be living with other creators. Because we were all struggling to find our way. I would miss out on an exhibition, and they would miss out on an audition, and we’d sit down and have a glass of wine, and have a moment about it with the dog and all that kind of thing. You hustle and you find your way to start off because it is hard. You can’t go in and start it off, especially in London. Joseph: I also want to talk about your time as an abstract painter. Let’s talk about your journey. Because you finish up school, you decide you want to be an artist, what were the early days like for you? And, where were you doing your art? How did the logistics of all this work out as you’re starting off as an artist? What do you do? Aisling: [29:55] I graduated in Central St. Martins in 2014. I came bouncing a lot of arts school and was, “Yay! This is great. I’ve got my master’s degree.” And then, went, “Oh, God. How am I going to make this work? Should I stay in London? Do I need to go back to Ireland? Where do I want to be?” I think in art school, it’s this amazing environment, and everyone’s on the same wavelength, and it’s just full of creativity. There’s so much going on between fine arts, and fashion, and creative writing because there are all these different departments and this buzz of creativity. And then, you come out and you go, “Great. Where do I start?” Let’s just say there isn’t a whole lot of focus on professional practice in that sense. I took some time just to gather myself a bit. I was still living in the house with the dog, so that was great. I was still nannying, so I was able to keep myself tipping over. And then, I thought, “I’m going to stay in London. I’m going to give it a go and see what happens.” I started looking for an art studio, which was just impossible. I just wasn’t able to pay for rent on my living and pay for rent on the studio. But then, one of the girls I had studied with was a waitress as well. Her boss had an old kebab shop that was no longer in use. So, he said we could have it for free. It was on Holloway Road, if we wanted it. We said, “Yeah. Let’s go for it.” And, my God! It was horrendous. It was freezing. It stank up like oil and chicken and it was dusty. But, it was a starting point. And then, this is the way it happens. Like, that was my first studio in London. It was free, starting points. And now, I got the best studio I’ve ever had and I love my studio now. Joseph: How long were you at the kebab shop? Aisling: [31:44] Maybe almost a year. I it had like a big glass front. People used to be walking up and down every morning, going to work. They started to get to know me. Because they’d see me in there at the wall, painting. They started waving at me. And, it would be freezing and I’d have all the layers of clothes on me and everything. But, I look back at it now and I think, “It was a starting point. I stuck it out. It was tough.” But, look now where I am. I got this amazing studio. I’ll probably stay here for quite a while. Because it’s very hard to get a studio in London. It’s a funny story now. Joseph: Let’s just think, okay, around month 11 of being in the kebab shop, I think one of the things that people struggle with when they’re embarking on a new journey is the starting few months or years can be really tough, and not exactly how you imagine things to be. How did you reconcile that? Was it running through your head? Did it bother you at all? Or, were you just feeling like, “Hey, this is just part of the journey”? Aisling: [32:42] I definitely had my moments. At that point as well, I was in my early 30s. I was just thinking, “This is tough. This is really tough.” But, at the same time, if it was easy, everyone would be doing it. So, you have to start to find that balance and you have to constantly come back to, “Is this what I want to do? Yes. This is definitely what I want to do. Right. How am I going to make this work? How can I make this a bit better?” So then, I started like I did a load of service jobs so I could make more money. Then, I moved into a different studio. Then, I started to have some galleries come and visit the studio. My work started getting picked up for different shows, and competitions, and things like that. And then, you start to understand as well, you have to think about the long game. This is not just going to happen straight away. You really have to apply yourself and understand that this is a lifetime career. Like, I will still be painting in my 90s, whatever age I end up being. And, there are no quick fixes around it. As well, you need that time because you have to develop your work. Because the work I was making then is completely different to the work I’m making now. The ethos is the same, but the work is very different. Because I’ve matured, the work has matured. Joseph: What has been the most difficult or challenging part of your journey as an artist? Aisling: [34:05] I think fallibility, actually. Understanding that I will make mistakes and I will get it wrong and embracing that. Like, embracing them. When I was younger, I had a bit of a panic that was like, “I have to get this right,” and “I’m supposed to know everything.” But, you don’t know everything. You have to figure it out and you have to screw it up because that’s how you learn. Once I accepted that and understood that this was about making mistakes, getting it wrong, and it’s about time, then I was able to progress. Again, it goes back to that when I was auditioning for Riverdance, you have to be your own champion. You can’t be the champion of everything, but you have to be your own champion for you so you can move forward. Does that make sense? Joseph: That does make a lot of sense, yeah. Especially, as an artist, you’re going to get all sorts of subjective critique coming your way, and you’re not going to be able to please everybody as an artist. So, I guess you have to be that much more self-assured to believe in your work. Aisling: [35:07] Yeah. You really have to. And, you have to understand that like — even I, as a mother, my son is in daycare this morning. So, you have this new added expense. But, you have to spend money to make money. I’m investing in my time by putting him into daycare, which means I can progress that I will do better. It’s always changing as well. I think that’s another thing that I’ve learned as well, that I have to be really flexible. Particularly, now, as a mother. In of the work and my paintings’ development, I had a lecture in art school who used to always say to me, “Aisling, you need to decide where you’re going to place yourself as an artist.” I could never understand that. I could never get my head around it. But, I understand it now. Because I’m so much more confident in what I’m doing and the work. I know where to place myself, and I know which box let’s say, within the art world, I want to put myself into. But, it’s taken me years to sort of unravel that in my head. Joseph: Can we also talk about the commercial side of being an artist for a moment? Because you did mention there’s a bit of a trade-off here. Obviously, you got to invest in the nursery, and you’ve got your bills to pay. There I think there is probably, at least an external perception out there that it’s pretty hard to make it successfully in the art world. In fact, there’s this term “starving artist.” Can you explain in your own words, what has it taken for you to make it as an artist? Aisling: [36:36] When I was in arts school, so granted we’re going back a good 10 years now, there was always the hierarchy of the gallery. Whereas now, you can have so much more self-autonomy as an artist. You can have so much more control. I’m not saying that there isn’t room for everybody, of course, there is. But, with the rise in the online art markers, something like COVID as well, has reshaped how people buy and sell art. I think now, you can really just sell for you. For example, the open studios. When people come and meet me, they see the work in the studio. I sell through my website. I sell through Instagram. And then, I do like art shows. And, I do show with galleries, but I’m not exclusive with a gallery. Because for now — I’m not saying I never will. But for now, I’m quite happy to build it on my own. I find that the more confident I become in my work, the more confident I become in my website development, or whatever it is. Because there are all these other little hats. In art school, they don’t teach you professional things. It’s all this stuff that you have to learn when you come out: contracts, agreements, and tax, and all the grown-up stuff that you have to deal with. You go first, again, it’s the tenacity. I want to do this. I want to make it work. I want to be able to pay for this studio. I want to be able to pay my bills. How am I going to do that? Well, I have to get up and talk about my work and tell everyone how great it is. Because I do think it is great and I’m in this for the long game. I want to build relationships with collectors, which I am doing, which is lovely. Because they come back, and they buy again and again. They say, “Oh, Aisling, you’ve changed your palette,” or “You’re moving into a different area.” It’s wonderful to build that. I think we’re living in an age where people want that experience as well of if someone buys my work, they love to be able to say, “Oh, gosh. This girl is from Ireland and she’s been with Riverdance, and now she’s an artist.” It’s this whole story, and Riverdance has influenced her work, and I’m really happy to share that with people. Joseph: The last thing I want to talk about before we wrap up with an art fair that you’re going to be exhibiting at very soon here, is just some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way of your very interesting career change journey. What have you learned about yourself as you have made this pivot from being a professional dancer to now a professional artist? Aisling: [38:56] I suppose I will go back again to the idea of tenacity. I didn’t realize, I always knew I had really good discipline, an application from being a dancer, that is just drawn into you. I’ve been able to carry that forward into my art career, which has been brilliant. I think learning that you can cross-pollinate from one creative area into another is a really wonderful thing. Learning to trust myself more, definitely. I said this earlier as well, trusting my instinct on things. Again, that’s a confidence thing as you grow. Particularly, within the arts, because it is also subjective and there isn’t one clear path with it. But, knowing that you can just follow your own timeline and that’s the best way to do it. I think there was a point where I felt like, “Oh, God. I shouldn’t be doing this because at this age.” And now, I’m kind of like, “Oh, no. Not at all. Do it all whatever way I want to do it.” I never stuck directly to the societal around how you should be doing things. I’ve always pretty much trusted my own gut. Even when I was 16 going, “I just want to get into Riverdance, and go to art school.” I’ve always had that attitude of, “Okay. Now, I’m just going to move to London and go to art school. And then, I’m going to make it as an artist. How am I going to do that? I don’t know. But, I’ll figure it out.” Like, an understanding you don’t know at all. You have to just wing it, and then everything happens for a reason and it will fall into place. Joseph: Anything in particular surprise you about making a pivot at the point in your life when you did? Aisling: [40:27] I think I’ve reframed a lot of thinking in my head about how to approach things. That’s been really good. I’ve been very conscious of surrounding myself with good people. Even in my studio, there are some amazing artists here. They’re also friends and they’re people that I can bounce ideas off. People that will help me grow is really good. That’s why it’s good to have good people around you. My husband is, he’s super ive. He loves what I do. He’ll come in and critique what I’m doing. His visual training is different from mine. Like, I said earlier, he’s an architect. His viewpoint is quite different, but we’ll have really good discussions about it. All these things add up and help me move along, win-win. Joseph: If there’s somebody out there who is maybe in a job, or if they’re in a role where they’re not quite feeling like they should keep doing it, or maybe the time has come for them to move on as you were describing before, that they’re thinking about leaving the stage before the stage leaves them, but they haven’t done it yet, what would you say to that person? Aisling: [41:34] Oh, it’s so funny, Joseph. I’ve met so many people at art fairs or who come to my studio. They’ll say, “Oh, I’d love to be doing something else. I really don’t like my work, but I love the security of it.” I will just like, “Life is too short. Do it. If it doesn’t work out, it’s okay. The world doesn’t end.” I have a friend actually, who’s been saying to me for about five years, “I don’t want to be doing what I’m doing.” I went, “Do it now. Because you don’t want to be saying this to me in another five years. Because then 10 years have gone by.” I would say, “Do it. Life is for living. You want to do what you love.” It’s going to be difficult. Of course, it’s going to be difficult because nothing is easy. If it is easy, it’s boring, right? You want to have a bit of fun with it. Go do it first, that’s what I’d say. Joseph: Now, we haven’t had a ton of artists on this show. A lot of the people who have been featured have either come from the corporate world or maybe they’re in more traditional white-collar office jobs. One of the things that you had talked to me about before we started recording was the idea that we need creativity in our lives. What did you mean by that? Aisling: [42:41] Okay. A good example of that would be the pandemic. When everything’s shut down, you weren’t able to move, to get out, to do anything. I think so many people relied on music or art that was in their house; TV, movies, all that. All those areas of creativity. Actually, that’s when my sales really went off. Because people were starting to think, “I need something to allow escapism, let’s say, in my home because I’m here so much.” I think creativity is essential to society. I think we need it. I think it’s so important, and people always need to that. Because without us, can you imagine life without any color? I mean, color in the broader sense. What’s the point? Joseph: I want to wrap up with something that I know you’ve got coming up right around the corner here. Can you tell me a little bit more about The Other Art Fair which is being held at King’s Cross in London from the 29th of June to the 2nd of July? Aisling: [43:50] I’m participating in The Other Art Fair. It’s a wonderful fair that’s led by artists. You meet artists on their stand. I will be on Stand Number 92, and you will see my latest body of work. If you want more information on that, you can pop over onto my website, aislingdrennan.com. If you subscribe, I send sporadic emails with any updates like that where I’m doing the art fairs or art galleries, or open studios or anything like that. Make sure you come and tell me that you heard the podcast, and let me know what you think. I’d love to meet you. Joseph: All right. Again, that’s Stand 92 at The Other Art Fair in King’s Cross. We’ll be sure to include a link in the show notes with more details about the art fair. Thank you so much, Aisling, for taking the time to tell us about your former life as a professional dancer, and now as a professional artist, and the importance of deciding where you want to place yourself and just going for it, if you’re thinking about doing something in your career. I hope the art fair this week goes well for you, and I wish you the best of luck with your art, and your business, and of course, balancing all of this with motherhood. Thanks so much for coming onto the show. Aisling: [45:02] Thank you for having me.

Making any major career pivot involves a lot of bravery, risk, and complication. You’re dealing with not only the practicalities of switching career paths but also the insecurities associated with starting over. On Career Relaunch® podcast episode 96, professional ballerina turned Mooch product designer Rina Takikawa describes what triggered her to walk away from a career that was years in the making and the surprising links you can find between two seemingly unrelated careers. This sort of decision to let go of a dream you once held onto so tightly turns out to be quite a common one amongst the clients, listeners, and audiences I cross paths with in my line of work. Rina and I talk about why people make these brave leaps, what you can do to manage the pivot, and how much you end up learning about yourself when you’re forced to reconsider what truly makes you happy. During today’s Mental Fuel segment, I’ll also share a few of the insecurities I wrestled with when I started over in my own career. Key Career Takeaways Your goals can change over time. When you lose the ion you once had for your career, you owe it to yourself to try and move on. Making the decision to walk away from a lifelong dream is never easy, but if you can manage the complexities of letting go of the investment, you may just end up finding much more career fulfillment. If you look hard enough, you can find the surprising, common threads across your seemingly disparate professional endeavors. Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I challenged you to identify, name, and share one of the insecurities you’ve felt recently in your own career so you can identify it when it shows up, accept it, and not allow it to paralyze you. , having doubts doesn’t mean you’ve made the wrong choice for your career. It just means you’re dealing with a common dynamic that emerges when you make any unconventional move. About Rina Takikawa, Ballerina Turned Product Designer Today, I’m speaking with Rina Takikawa, a product designer based in Los Angeles. She’s one of the founding at Mooch, a fintech startup building a Gen Z budgeting app, where she leads design and product experience. Rina has been featured in press outlets such as Business Insider and Built In and has spoken at the University of Arizona, UX Copenhagen, Ideate Labs, and CareerFoundry among others. Before transitioning into the tech sector, Rina was a professional ballerina for the Ballet de Catalunya in Spain. Follow Rina on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and her newsletter. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare, Tweet to let me and Rina know!  Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android to automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph Liu on most major social media platforms.  Connect with Joseph Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!  Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to BrandYourself for ing the Career Relaunch® podcast A2 Hosting offers simple tools and services to help control what people find when they Google you. To clean up, protect, and improve how you look online, visit BrandYourself.com and use promo code ‘RELAUNCH’ to get 50% off a hip. Interview Segment Music Credits Podington Bear- Pives And Flarinet Podington Bear – Puppy Podington Bear – Trillium Leimoti – Leave a Mark Podington Bear – Jetsam Bio Unit – Across the Valley Scott Holmes Music – Ambient Meditation Scott Holmes Music – Life In A Moment

Setting clear boundaries in your career is critical to maintaining a good work-life balance, positive professional relationships, and your own mental sanity. And setting boundaries is especially important when you’re a doctor, where you not only experience a lot of stress and pressure, but your own well-being can affect your ability to take care of the people depending on you for care. On episode 95 of the Career Relaunch® podcast, Ali Jawa, a practicing endocrinologist turned medical director shares his thoughts on setting boundaries, acknowledging career stagnation, and making a non-traditional move within one’s industry.  I also share some thoughts on defining your walkaway points in your career during the Mental Fuel® segment. Key Career Takeaways At some point, you have to make a choice about the boundaries you’re going to set between your personal and professional life. The intellectual challenge in one’s career is crucial for personal and professional growth, as it encourages continuous learning and the development of new skills and perspectives. Having your feet on two different boats moving in different directions is extremely challenging. While you can bounce back and forth for a while, at some point, you have to leap and commit to one or the other. You need to get clear with yourself about “why” you want to pursue a specific career path. You can’t keep planning forever. You have to take action to honor those things you value most in your career and life. Resources Mentioned Ali mentioned Rich Dad Poor Dad, which was a pivotal book that helped me redefine how he thought about his own career. Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I talked about the importance of defining what your action threshold or tipping point will be before you take action. Think about which milestone you want to cross, what amount of time should , what state a relationship should reach, or how badly you’ll let your well-being suffer. What will it take, how far will you allow yourself to go before you can no longer NOT act? About Ali Jawa, Medical Director at Wilcare Ali Jawa is a doctor from Pakistan who moved to the US 27 years ago for advanced medical training in Internal Medicine, Endocrinology, & clinical research. He eventually returned to Pakistan to become a professor at a top public-sector medical university there. Over the next decade, he built his clinical practice, set up a medical center called WilCare, served as President of the Pakistan Endocrine Society, & trained several doctors to become endocrinologists like himself. Since 2015, he’s been the Medical Director of WilCare on a full-time basis. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android to automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph Liu on most major social media platforms.  Connect with Joseph Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!  Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to A2 Hosting for ing the Career Relaunch® podcast A2 Hosting is the web host provider I use and trust for my own websites, and they even offer 100% carbon neutral green hosting. For an easy, fast, and affordable way to get your personal website online today, visit careerrelaunch.net/a2 to get 50% off your web hosting plan. Interview Segment Music Credits Bio Unit – Ground Effect Bio Unit – Flying Saucer Mochas – City Sun Podington Bear – Puppy AMBIENTALISM – Presence Poddington Bear- Pives And Flarinet

Controlling your own professional narrative is especially important when you’re changing career paths. Proactively taking control of your own narrative helps you ensure that your unique value and aspirations come through clearly and convincingly. On episode 94 of the Career Relaunch® podcast, HR adviser turned executive coach Maura Lightfoot shares her thoughts on finding your voice in an environment where you’re an outlier and the importance of identifying the common thread across all your diverse professional experiences.  I also share some thoughts on the importance of owning your own narrative during the Mental Fuel® segment. Key Career Takeaways Working abroad gives you an opportunity to find your unique voice when you are an outlier and minority in your workplace. When you’re proud of the work you do and an organization values someone with your unique skillset and background, that’s a sign you’re working for the right employer. Working in a mission-driven world doesn’t preclude you from burnout. In fact, you may be more susceptible to burnout because you’re so ionate about your work. Find the common thread across your work. Everyone has the power to author their own story. Often, you must go through a bit of messy upheaval in your career before you eventually find your way. It’s just part of the journey. Listener Challenge My challenge to you is to take some time to identify the common thread across all the work you currently do and have done in the past. What’s been your common motivation across your roles? What’s the singular purpose that gets you out of bed each day? Try to capture it in words and see how it sits with you. Share that statement with others to see how it lands with them. Making an effort to articular this can hopefully provide you with some clarity and direction when exploring new opportunities and communicating what you bring to the table in those situations. About Maura Lightfoot, Executive Coach Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android to automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph Liu on most major social media platforms.  Connect with Joseph Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered in future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!  Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to Wise for ing the Career Relaunch® podcast Wise is the world’s most international bank . It lets you hold and convert multiple currencies all in one place, offering a smarter, easier way to move money internationally without the typical bank fees or foreign exchange commissions. I’ve used it for years myself to handle many of my own international transactions. Try Wise for free at CareerRelalunch.net/wise. Interview Segment Music Credits Podington Bear – Bountiful Podington Bear – Many Hands Ookean – Paintings Podington Bear – Pink Gradient Podington Bear – Loll Podington Bear – Leftover Fog Bio Unit – Aerial

Moving abroad for a job can be tough emotionally and practically. Leaving familiar surroundings and loved ones can lead to homesickness and isolation. Adapting to a new work environment, language, and way of life adds to the pressure. However, it can also be a broadening and enriching experience that expands your world in unexpected ways. Stefania Tosini, a press officer turned talent acquisition specialist is going to talk about what she wrestled with when making her decision to move from Italy to during the height of the Covid-19 pandemic. In episode 93 of the Career Relaunch® podcast, I also share some thoughts on the struggles I had when I moved from the US to the UK  during the Mental Fuel® segment. Key Career Takeaways Leaving one’s family behind to pursue a career can be a difficult decision to make. It can bring up a variety of emotions, ranging from fear and anxiety about leaving a loving environment to excitement for new opportunities and experiences to come. Do not be afraid to ask for help. Everyone needs from time to time. Expectations can be a tricky thing, especially when it comes to your career decisions. Don’t assume that everyone will react to your choices in the way you hope. Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I talked about moving locations for your career. My challenge to you is to look forward instead of backward. To trust that you made the best decision you possibly could to serve what you felt was most important to you. Focus on doing everything you can to make the most of your current circumstances rather than dwelling TOO much on what you left behind. Start small and decide on one action you can take right now to more fully embrace your chosen path. About Stefania Tosini, Talent Acquisition Partner at Zalando Stefania Tosini is a polyglot with a background in international affairs and economics who recently made a big move of her own from Italy to . With over 8 years of experience across multiple industries including roles in education as an English Teacher for the Japanese School of Milan, luxury fashion as a press officer for companies like Dolce & Gabbana, and now in online retail as a talent acquisition partner for Zalando, she finds her professional motivation in helping people find fulfillment and belonging in their careers. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android to automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph Liu on most major social media platforms.  Connect with Joseph Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!  Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to Vista Social for ing Career Relaunch Vista Social is a versatile, time-saving tool to manage all your social media s in one place. You can easily create, schedule, optimize, and publish content directly to multiple social media profiles from one simple dashboard. I actually use it myself to manage all my online profiles. Try Vista Social out for free right now at careerrelaunch.net/vista. Interview Segment Music Credits Podington Bear – Floating Podington Bear – Program Reverie Podington Bear – Pulsars Podington Bear – Golden Hour REW – Hylidae Podington Bear – Holding Hands Podington Bear – Stuck Dream Podington Bear – Memory Wind

Pursuing hobbies and interests outside of our daily work can be incredibly beneficial for our personal and professional growth. Hobbies can help us relax and reduce stress, increase creativity and productivity, and even open up new opportunities and networks. However, it can be difficult to make time for hobbies when we are busy with work, family, and other responsibilities. Jenny Goh, a former conference event planner turned IT firm manager discusses the unique role transitional jobs play in your career and how side activities outside of work can be so useful to pursue. In episode 92 of the Career Relaunch® podcast, I’ll also share my thoughts about how hobbies have influenced my own life and career during the Mental Fuel® segment. Key Career Takeaways itting your own limitations and weaknesses can help you to re-evaluate your priorities and goals, and open up new opportunities for you to pursue something you might be more ionate about or better suited for. Having a hobby or ion project that you look forward to outside of work can help recharge your batteries and give you the energy and perspective you need to tackle the challenges at work. There will be a day when you aren’t working in your current job anymore. Learning from the successes and failures of others, as well as listening to the advice and guidance of mentors and peers, can help us navigate the professional world and make informed decisions about our own careers. If you feel you’ve learned and given all you can in your current role, you should consider seeking new opportunities to continue your personal and professional growth. Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I invited you to pursue a new hobby this year. Perhaps an interest of yours that you’ve always thought about investing more energy into but just haven’t made the time for. Allow yourself the freedom to do something you think would be fun. This means regularly dedicating time to hobbies. Could you spare an hour on the weekends? Or even just 30 minutes one evening a week? Schedule this time into your calendar like you would with any other important task. About Jenny Goh, Product & Scrum Master Jenny Goh initially thought she would become a scientist, so she spent her university days studying biology and heading down a research path. But when she was working toward her graduate degree, she realized that a career in research wasn’t what she really wanted and maybe wasn’t her natural forte. So, she started soul searching and exploring things like event planning, and eventually landed roles working in IT for companies like IBM. Now, as a Project Manager and Scrum Master at Accenture, she’s hoping to use the skills and knowledge she’s gathered over the years to hopefully help and inspire others in their careers. Her hobby of learning ballet on the side at the Singapore Ballet has had a direct impact on her perspectives when she’s at work. So I wanted to get Jenny onto the show to not only explain her career transition but also to share her thoughts on the importance of feeding your interests outside of work. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android to automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph Liu on most major social media platforms.  Connect with Joseph Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!  Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to Harmoni for ing the Career Relaunch® podcast Thanks to Harmoni Design for ing this episode of the Career Relaunch® podcast. The Harmoni Standing Desk offers a smarter, healthier way to work with its simple design that fits into any workspace. It’s the standing desk I’ve used myself since 2020, and Career Relaunch® podcast listeners can get 15% off any Harmoni order by visiting CareerRelaunch.net/Harmoni and using discount code RELAUNCH when you check out. Interview Segment Music Credits Stay tuned for full track listing

Our guest on Career Relaunch® podcast episode 91 is a lawyer turned workplace wellbeing consultant Tom Keya. If you’re like me, your stereotypical image of lawyers may involve fast-track professionals in slick suits working at a high-rise office in a big city, working with high-profile clients, and earning lots of money—the kind of stuff you might see on TV. Tom’s career in a law firm kind of started like this. He lived and breathed the life of a high-flying lawyer in central London, earning a high salary with big bonuses, and in many ways, he felt like he was at the top of his game. However, the pressure of being a high-performing lawyer began to whittle away at his mental and physical well-being. He lost his health, his purpose, and self-worth by ruthlessly trying to succeed in an intense industry. After eventually suffering a complete mental breakdown, he took a year-long career break and decided to stop practicing law entirely. Tom discusses his vicious and dangerous spiral that involved drugs, alcohol, and pushing his body and life to the point of total collapse. He also explains the realities of corporate life in a big city and what he did to rescue himself from what became an unhealthy downward spiral. Finally, I’ll share my perspectives on how I think about where I want my career to head in the future during the Mental Fuel® segment. Key Career Takeaways Your job has a direct impact on your lifestyle. You must remain mindful of whether your work is taking your life in the direction you desire. Hitting rock bottom often forces you to reassess who you are and what you want for your life and career. However, paying attention early on to any signs that suggest you’re headed in the wrong direction can help you avoid a lot of unnecessary pain. Healing in the environment where you got sick is very difficult. At the same time, leaving even a bad situation behind can be quite scary. If an environment is unhealthy for you, you owe it to yourself to explore other avenues. Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I talked about  identifying what’s most important to you at work. Pinpoint three things most important for you to have in your professional life. Then, think about how you want things to look across these priorities exactly one year from now. Decide which things you want to refrain from pursuing, to simply maintain as-is, or to proactively obtain. Then, shape your efforts and actions accordingly. About Tom Keya, Workplace Wellbeing Consultant Former lawyer Tom Keya is the owner and chief executive of London-based law firm Berkeley Rowe, Dubai-based law firm Ruthbergs LLC, and corporate wellbeing consultancy and employee wellbeing technology platform Soulh Tech, and a keynote impact investing speaker at the Impact 17+1 Club. He now works with companies to monitor the health and happiness of their employees and improve employee well-being, happiness, and retention. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android to automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph Liu on most major social media platforms.  Connect with Joseph Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!  Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to Grammarly for ing Career Relaunch Built by linguists and language lovers, Grammarly’s writing app finds and corrects hundreds of complex writing errors — so you don’t have to. Career Relaunch® podcast listeners can Grammarly for free by going to GetGrammarly.com/relaunch. Interview Segment Music Credits

When does it make sense to let go of stability to boldly pursue the unknown? In this episode of the Career Relaunch® podcast, Samantha Tovera-Agustin, an HR professional turned founder explains why she chose to move her career, family, and life from the Bay Area to the Philippines. We’ll discuss the challenging balance between work and parenthood, signs that suggest you may need a change in your career, and ways you can prevent career regret. I also share some thoughts on the importance of reconnecting with old friends during the Mental Fuel® segment. Key Career Takeaways When you work hard to get to where you are in your career, letting go of all this investment is incredibly hard. People often regret the inactions they took in their careers to do something bold and brave that honors their values. Surrendering to the unknown and allowing yourself to potentially fail enables you to open the door to new, exciting opportunities in your life and career. To be there for others, you have to make sure you’re taking care of your own health and well-being first. Societal expectations can lead us to feel like we need to be working and hustling all the time. But slowing down is not only okay but also necessary sometimes to see more clearly and reconnect with yourself. Resources Mentioned We discussed the topic of regret. The book I mentioned is The Power of Regret by Daniel Pink, which I would highly recommend! Listener Challenge I’d challenge you to reconnect with a long-lost friend from your past. f you’re like me, I find it a bit awkward to suddenly drop a note to someone you haven’t spoken to in years. I’d still challenge you to do it—just to see what happens. Even if you don’t rekindle the relationship, at the very least, you can let that person know that you’re still thinking about them. And that alone can be valuable. You never know what kind of an impact that could have on them. About Samantha Tovera-Agustin Samantha Tovera-Agustin is a seasoned HR professional specializing in talent acquisition, leadership development, and employee engagement. When the pandemic hit in 2019, she launched her own business, Masarap Box (Facebook, Instagram)that delivers a monthly box of Filipino snacks right to your door. The past three years made her realize what mattered to her. In 2021, she and her husband made a big decision to move with their two young daughters (aged five and two at the time) from California to the Philippines, where she’s originally from, to truly honor what they valued most- which was to spend more quality time with family. Now back in the Philippines, her husband has also recently launched C-Suite Jiu-Jitsu (Facebook, Instagram), a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Training Center, and Samantha’s been able to work as an HR Consultant for Canadian and US firms, helping small to mid-size businesses with HR solutions- which also honors her professional values of serving others. With more flexibility in her schedule now, she’s been able to reconnect with her family, her friends, and most importantly, herself. Samantha and I first connected in 2018, when she dropped me a note after watching my TEDx Talk, and we’ve remained in touch since. Watching her career evolve over the past few years has been really fascinating, and it’s not every day that I cross paths with people who make the decision to let go of a well-paid, stable job to make such a big international move. I was really excited to get her onto the Career Relaunch® podcast so you can hear how she came to her decision. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android to automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!  Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to Audible for ing Career Relaunch Thanks to Audible for ing this episode of Career Relaunch. Audible is the premier provider of digital audiobooks, offering over 180,000 audiobook titles for listening anytime and anywhere on your favorite device. Career Relaunch listeners can a free audiobook and get 30-day trial at audibletrial.com/careerrelaunch. Interview Segment Music Credits Ebby & Flod – Giza Hazy – Letting Go Cora Zea – Faith in Aurora Scott Buckley – Jul Podington Bear – Infant Podington Bear – Satellite Bloom Podington Bear – Beautocracy

When you figure out where to take your career, you shouldn’t feel like you have to chase after it right away. On Career Relaunch® podcast episode 89, Kessler Bickford, a former magazine editor turned psychotherapist, discusses the challenges of deciding where you take your career when you have multiple interests and the distinction between identifying and actually pursuing your ion. We also talk about the importance of timing when making a career pivot, and during the Mental Fuel® segment, I also reveal the impact moving at different speeds in my own career had on my overall professional trajectory. Key Career Takeaways Not knowing exactly where you belong professionally is okay and totally normal. Sometimes, you just have to trust your gut to guide you. Even if you know there’s something you’re meant to do, there’s a balance between going after it and waiting until you’re fully ready to make the leap. Timing is key. You likely have more than one gift inside you. It takes some courage to decide exactly where you ultimately want to direct your energies then go for it with everything you’ve got. Just like fit matters when you’re choosing a place to live or even a pair of shoes to buy, our overall job satisfaction has a lot to do with fit. Be patient with your moves. Don’t let fear run the show. Resources Mentioned We mentioned the Sept 2022 WSJ article, The Next Pandemic: Anxiety Over Life Itself The 13 best books for managing anxiety, according to psychologists– Business Insider, Oct 2022 How to use anxiety to your advantage– BBC, Oct 2022 Kessler also mentioned the importance of working with a professional therapist when trying to tackle struggles related to anxiety or shame. Your Guide to Getting the Most From Online Therapy from Everyday Health could be a helpful way to get a lay of the land. Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I talked about the importance identifying one initiative, project, or move in your career that you feel really eager to get done right away. Take a moment right now and reflect on what’s at stake and what might happen if you slowed down just a bit. Do you need to pursue this specific goal at this very moment? Or is it something that could wait? At least for a bit? What would that cost you? How would it benefit you? Consider how slowing down might influence your ultimate chances of success. About Kessler Bickford, Anxiety Therapist Kessler Bickford is a psychotherapist running her own private practice who specializes in treating patients struggling with anxiety using a modality called Intensive Short-term Dynamic Psychotherapy. However, she began her career working for over a decade as an editor for Chesapeake Family Life magazine. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android to automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!  Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to BrandYourself for ing the Career Relaunch® podcast A2 Hosting allows you to offers simple tools and services to help control what people find when they Google you. To clean up, protect, and improve how you look online, visit BrandYourself.com and use promo code ‘RELAUNCH’ to get 50% off a hip. Interview Segment Music Credits Bio Unit – Summer Rain Sappheiros – Embrace Guy Copeland – Agrotis Infusa Podington Bear – Celadon Alan Ellis – Sea Howard Harper-Barnes – The Promising

What happens when the initial excitement of your new job starts to wear off? Or the work you’re doing becomes misaligned with the person you want to be? In episode 88 of the Career Relaunch® podcast, Melody Mack, an neurodiagnostics business owner turned project manager shares her thoughts on managing your relationship with work, letting go of a business you created, and taking an honest look at who you are. During the Mental Fuel® segment, I’ll also share a glimpse into a few of the issues I seem to have dragged around with me from job to job. Key Career Takeaways Divorcing yourself from your professional identity is extremely difficult, which is one reason why saying farewell to your job can be so difficult. When the challenges and frustrations you’re feeling in your professional life seem to follow you from job to job, the issue may have more to do with you than your employer or work itself. While professional transitions and gaps in your CV can feel uncertain and stressful, those periods of transition are a part of the journey. Slowing down and taking the time to figure things out is not only okay but also necessary to make the right career choices moving forward. If you focus too much on what other people are saying, thinking, or doing, you can lose track of yourself. It’s important to stay true to yourself in order to feel at peace in your career. Tweetables When you blame and criticize others, you are avoiding some truth about yourself. Deepak Chopra Tweet This Resources Mentioned I talked briefly about Attribution Theory, which you can read more about here. Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel segment, my challenge to you was to take an honest look at one of the persistent issues you’ve been struggling with in your career for quite some time. How much of your work struggles are a result of the specific environment you’re in at this moment? How much of them actually have to do with you—your expectations, your beliefs, your blueprint of how things should be. Take 1 action over something you can control to help you manage those things you can’t control at this moment in your career. About Our Guest Melody Mack Melody Mack left a successful career in healthcare as a provider and business owner so she could  focus on project management in a different industry. One thing she’s learned is that working hard in a job that doesn’t give you joy is simply not sustainable. I caught Melody in the middle of her transition, and in spite of facing some tough challenges along the way, she’s still hopeful for the future. I first crossed paths with Melody when she sent me a note on LinkedIn after being a long-time listener of this podcast. She mentioned feeling burned out by her last job, the challenges of walking away from a lucrative role, and the complications of transitioning into something else–all universal challenges many career changers face. I was really excited to get her onto the show so she could share in her own words what I think is a very relatable career transition journey. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare,  Tweet to let me and Melody know! Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android to automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!  Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to A2 Hosting for ing the Career Relaunch® podcast A2 Hosting is the web host provider I use and trust for my own websites, and they even offer 100% carbon neutral green hosting. For an easy, fast, and affordable way to get your personal website online today, visit careerrelaunch.net/a2 to get 50% off your web hosting plan. Interview Segment Music Credits Dog And Pony Show – Podington Bear Planet – Infraction Signal To Noise – Scott Buckley Temporary Stop – Jay Varton Ethereal – Punch Deck New Ambitions – Trevor Kowalski Rand Aldo – Open Atmos TV Show 2021 – Infraction

Professionals in academia have certainly not been immune to the current Great Resignation movement. An assistant professor of economics turned data science practice leader gives a candid glimpse into the world of academia and reveals his motivations behind pivoting from a university into the private sector. On Career Relaunch® podcast episode 87, we’ll discuss the unique challenges of academic careers, the importance of being open to new sectors, and why confidence is one of the most important assets to have during career transitions. During the Mental Fuel® segment, I also share my thoughts on why so employees are choosing to change career paths right now. Key Career Takeaways Studying one subject then going into a completely different field professionally is not uncommon and can actually provide you with a more unique perspective compared to others who follow more traditional career paths. When the people you’re surrounded by in your current industry have spent the majority of their careers in that same industry, the natural tendency is for them to promote career paths similar to their own because it’s the world they know. You may inevitably have to jump through some hoops to ascend the professional ladder you’re climbing, but at some point, the payoff may no longer be worth the effort. When you’re on an exhausting, depleting career path, you sometimes don’t realize just how much of a toll it’s been taking on you until you completely step away. You know more than you may be giving yourself credit for. Especially during career pivots, you must find a way to garner the confidence to unabashedly convey your unique value to others. The first person you have to convince is yourself though😉. Related Resources Read the full findings from that Prezi poll I mentioned about hybrid work survey findings that found evidence of employer proximity bias. Picking up on my Mental Fuel® segment where I discussed the importance of understanding how you prefer to work, check out this Slack article, Inflexible return-to-office policies are hammering employee experience scores Great Resignation articles- related to academia Calling it quits– Inside Higher Ed, July 2022 Has the ‘great resignation’ hit academia– Nature, May 2022 ‘Do it all’ culture ‘driving great resignation’ in academia– Times Higher Education, July 2022 Great Resignation articles- general Read why workers are quitting (BBC, Aug 2022) and where they’re going (Inc, Aug 2022) Why are people leaving the corporate world in droves– HS Burney, July 2022 Experts explain how to ace that ‘Great Reshuffle’ career move– CNBC, July 2022 Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel segment, I talked about the importance of deciding what sort of organizational ways of working are acceptable to you with the latest advent of remote and hybrid working. My challenge you is to just consider if you’re facing a bit of a turning point with your own employer where you’re getting mandated to do things for the sake of returning to the way things were that just don’t sit so well with you anymore. You don’t need to pick up and leave right away. But you may want to put some stakes in the ground for yourself about what ways of work are acceptable to you in the months and years ahead. About Andrew Graczyk Andrew Graczyk is a trained data scientist with a PhD in Economics. He’s worked in academic and instructional positions for University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, Wake Forest University, and the Duke University Talent Identification Program. Now he’s Practice Director for Artificial Intelligence & Machine Learning at KForce, where he uses his mathematical, statistical, and game theoretic knowledge to architect and implement data driven improvements to business practices. Learn more about The Data Incubator that helped Andrew transition from academia into the private sector. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare,  Tweet to let me and Andrew know! Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow Career Relaunch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android to automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow Career Relaunch on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!   Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to Vista Social for ing Career Relaunch Vista Social is a versatile, time-saving tool to manage all your social media s in one place. You can easily create, schedule, optimise, and publish content directly to multiple social media profiles from one simple dashboard. I actually use it myself to manage all my online profiles. Try Vista Social out for free right now at careerrelaunch.net/vista. Interview Segment Music Credits Podington Bear – Encounter A Himitsu – Fragile Elm Lake – Purify Podington Bear – Bright White Podington Bear – Gathering Real Heroes – It’s Getting Better Episode Interview Transcript Joseph: Let’s start by talking about what’s been keeping you busy in your life and career. I understand you just started a new role just earlier this month, is that right? Andrew: [02:43] That’s correct. I just started as a practice director for artificial intelligence and machine learning at Kforce. That’s been keeping me busy, the transition has been keeping me busy, but it’s a lot going on. Joseph: What exactly are you responsible for there at Kforce, and what does Kforce focus on? Andrew: [03:00] Kforce is generically a staffing company. They’re the largest staffing company for infrastructure technology and other intelligence-driven services in the United States. They help companies solve problems for projects with people. What I’m responsible for is kind of kick-starting a practice in that vein for data science. Instead of having say IT people to institute some security protocol, or cyber security people instituting some protocol and working with a company’s full-time staff and permanent staff do that on a project, I would help to architect that and choose other consultants to help implement that as well as help implement myself. Joseph: You are based in Toronto. Can you just tell me a little bit about your personal setup? What’s been keeping you busy right now in your personal life? Andrew: [03:54] I guess what’s been keeping me busy lately is cats. We just got a new cat. I’m a very cat-oriented person. Joseph: How many cats do you have? Andrew: [04:02] Right now, we have three. Joseph: Okay. Andrew: [04:05] We just adopted one from a rescue here. Cooking and running; my wife and I like to run 10Ks and half marathons. I like to cook. I like to eat. I mostly like to run so I can eat. I don’t need to run, I run so I can eat and not become a giant person. Joseph: We have some things in common for. I love cats, Andrew. We don’t own one. I would love to own one, but I don’t know if I could keep up with it, and a little worried about the furniture. I also love running and I also love eating. Like you, probably run to eat, not the other way around. But before we go back in time and talk about your former professional life, you are in Canada but you are American. How did you end up in Toronto? Andrew: [04:52] I ended up in Toronto because my wife was working at the University of Toronto. My wife is also in academia and has a Ph.D. She came up in 2019, right after she got a Ph.D. into postdoctoral fellowship. I came up to visit her over spring break in 2020, and that is when the pandemic broke out. I was at the time a visiting assistant professor at Wake Forest University. They closed everything down, and all the travel shut down, and I was just in Toronto. For several years, I didn’t really go back to the States because it wasn’t really feasible to. I just kind of started being here. It was actually in Toronto that I began my transition. I like the joke that I came up for spring break and never left. And now, we’re both residents. The tax is a little complicated, my residence is actually in North Carolina for those purposes. I’m there sometimes, but still, in Canada frequently. Joseph: You mentioned academia there, and I would love to just go back in time. You haven’t always been working in data science at Kforce. You haven’t always been in the private sector. Can we go back in time and talk about your time in the academic world? We can move forward from there. What were you focused on as a Ph.D. candidate at the University of North Carolina, and how did you end up going down the Ph.D. route? Andrew: [06:20] Back the primordial days of 2010 and 2011, I was finishing my undergraduate degree at University of South Carolina. How I got into my head to do a Ph.D. is actually to this day kind of a mystery. It doesn’t really make sense why I did it because I got my bachelor’s in Physics and Math. I realized, towards the end doing lab work, that I kind of hated physics lab work. I was like, “That’s a problem.” I was like, “Okay, I could go into the high-energy pure math theoretical stuff. I could go and work for some oil company doing some basic physics, fluid dynamics stuff,” but I didn’t really like any of those options. For some reason, the end of my under career, I took a philosophy course which ended up teaching a bit about economics. It’s one of those weird interdisciplinary electives that colleges do sometimes, I can’t even what the name of it was, I was like, “This is very interesting. I think there’s something to this.” Somehow, I got into my mind to get a Ph.D. in Economics which I’ve literally never taken a course in. But I knew Math, and that helped a lot. I applied to a few different schools for their Ph.D. programs. But I applied kind of late because I was late to the game and figure out that’s what I wanted to do. And then, I got rejected. But then I went to North Carolina and said, “What can I do to make myself a more attractive candidate?” I talked to a few of the professors, and then they decided to let me in for the fall semester. Joseph: They just let you in just like that. Just from you having a chat with them. Andrew: [07:56] Yeah. I think maybe they just have a slot open up and they let me in. Joseph: Right place, right time. Okay. Andrew: [08:03] Then I went in there and it turns out that it was not so bad because most of graduate economics is just math, and I could do math. That’s how I got into the Ph.D. It seemed like it might give me an understanding for how society works. You think of it in some progression, I wanted to learn how the physical reality worked, and I wanted to understand how social reality worked. I’m not going to say that I did that in the totality, “I understand everything now.” I’m not going to say that I can do that, but it did provide me some insights into why society is the way it is in certain ways that for better or for worse I now have. I’m very grateful to that. As I was a Ph.D. candidate, I was focusing on game theory, labor economics, and financial asset bubbles, which seems like a weird combination. But really what my focus was on was understanding and providing some theory on how housing bubbles were the result of income and wealth inequality. At least, partially, that was a plausible thing in creating a model to show how that could be the case and how it explains phenomena that we see. Basically, how inequality was not just an effect of economic policy, but a cause of economic reality. Joseph: I see. Kind of generating distortion in asset markets as you had mentioned before. Andrew: [09:25] Exactly. I was really big into understanding how inequality happened why. In my mind, more importantly, what that does to society and economic just markets, in general. Joseph: You’re actually one of the first academics that we’ve had, just to kind of use the term broadly, that we’ve had on the show. I’m just going to take a big-picture view of this. This is what your dissertation was focused on. For those people who are listening to this and they’re just not familiar with what’s involved with doing a Ph.D., what exactly is a dissertation? Could you just explain at a very high level what that involves? Andrew: [10:00] A dissertation is where you put your ideas to realize that they’re wrong. Dissertation is a process by which you compile research. I’ve never met a person, and I don’t think I ever will, who’s got a Ph.D. who is absolutely sure of themselves. It’s not because there’s a well-known imposter syndrome. That is a real problem on academics. Part of it’s about understanding and embracing that humility of realizing so many people thought about so many things, every minute detail of every idea you have has been thought about studied and analyzed, and you have to defend every single statement you make about everything. Parts of it leads to academic speaking so strangely and insisting on such precision in their language. Because if they say something inaccurate, somebody’s going to jump out and say, “Aha! You misattribute this thing.” Joseph: We’ve spoken before, Andrew. My wife also did a Ph.D., and she works in academics right now and I have had the privilege of ing her at some of her conferences. Mostly, just because I wanted to kind of travel alongside because she gets to go to cool places. The discussions around the lunch table are very detailed, and very much in the weeds. To the point where I just really lose track of the conversation sometimes. That’s interesting that you describe that. How did you enjoy doing a dissertation? What was that experience like for you? Focusing on one very specific topic here in inequality generating distortion and asset markets, what was that experience like for you on a day-to-day level? Andrew: [11:32] I will not sugarcoat it. It was harrowing. It was psychologically quite taxing, and I would never do it again. I’m being completely serious there. It was a very stressful time. Part of it is just the volume of work. I mean most Ph.D. dissertations are between three and five academic papers, which really depends on the discipline you’re in. But usually, an academic paper is you said a research paper where you have to basically have a citation for everything or a mathematical equation justifying everything, and a graph justifying your interpretation of the mathematical equation. Joseph: How many pages are we talking about here per paper? Andrew: [12:08] Mine was only I think on the order of 250 maybe. And mine was pretty condensed because I didn’t really have any graphs. Mine was all pure math, theory, and proofs. It was on the shorter side, but there are some who swell must be on that. Some of it’s because they have like a bunch of figures and graphs and things that swell their space and everything. It’s really all about people telling you your ideas are wrong for six years until eventually, you find something they can’t find a fault with, and they can’t definitively prove is wrong. I made it harder on myself by kind of tackling this weird nebulous problem that people weren’t really familiar with of income inequality as a cause of things and asset levels. Both of which are pretty on their own pretty niche topics in the academic economic world, which they absolutely shouldn’t be. I think it’s a problem that they are niche topics, but they are. I put them together which is even more niche, which made people even more skeptical and drew even more scrutiny. I certainly don’t regret my choice of topics, and I don’t regret getting a Ph.D. but it was a harrowing process. Anybody getting a Ph.D., it’s really about deconstructing your worldview and building it back up in a way that is completely in line with available data and say that much. Joseph: You’re doing this dissertation. You’re doing your Ph.D. You finish your Ph.D. How did you then think about your career moving forward? I understand you then ended up moving into the realm of working with undergraduates as a visiting professor. Is that correct? Andrew: [13:42] The career trajectory that’s usually given to every academic person I’ve talked to at least, I’m sure there’s some places, they’re different. But most programs from what I can gather in most disciplines kind of point students at more academic jobs. I think the reason for that is a pretty simple selection bias. I mean the people who are instructing these people are professors who got academic jobs. I will say it’s almost impossible to cross the threshold from non-academic to academic jobs. It is very difficult. Unless you like you have some connection to. There’s very, very rare exceptions to that. But people who are in academia and have tenure jobs, or who are advising students, or almost certainly people who have done nothing but academia ever. It’s the world they know, it’s the world they advise in because it’s the world they lived in. It’s also a factor of most of the professors that I talked to and had work, let’s say it could have been a minimum of 15, 20 years since they had you know gotten their Ph.Ds., and the job market that they went into was very different from the job market that current graduates were entering into, which may have also shaped their understanding and their advice. So, the path laid out for me was, “Oh! Go get an academic job. Go get a professor job. Go the Federal Reserve Bank. Go do something academia-ish.” And it quickly became apparent that that was not going to happen for a lot of people who I was graduating with just because of the degree of competition. Economics is not the most stingy with jobs. There are actually plenty of economics jobs there. Just still weren’t enough though, to say that much for. I know a lot of people who’ve had to go to private sector because of that. Or not had to, but they decided to. Joseph: You mentioned becoming a tenured professor. Can you just explain what is a tenured professor? What are the different versions of professor that are out there? My father was a professor actually. He was an assistant professor for a while, and then he was a tenured professor. But can you just explain the difference between like visiting professor, adjunct faculty/lecturer professor, tenure professor? Andrew: [15:52] I’ll start at the sort of the bottom of the totem pole as it were, with adjuncts. Adjuncts, they shouldn’t exist. Not that the people shouldn’t exist, but the position shouldn’t exist because the university should pay people to be actual professors. It’s kind of the minimum wage of academia. You have these people who know their subjects very well, have done research, done their Ph.Ds. But universities realize they can pay them on a per-class basis rather than hire them as a full-time faculty member. And so, often you’ll have people teaching on the order of or actually sometimes far beyond what a tenured professor would be teaching rather, and being paid very little. This is especially a problem among Humanities where there are have been fewer jobs opening up in the recent years for many reasons. To go up the totem pole a little bit, a lecturer is somebody who is just there to teach classes but they have contracted on a yearly basis and they have some benefits. But their job is only to teach classes. It’s a very important job to teach classes but they’re usually teaching undergraduates. Usually, have Ph.Ds. in the field. In fact, almost always. I’ve never met a lecturer who didn’t, but their job is to teach classes. Now then, you get into like professor level. Visiting assistant professors are weird. Joseph: That is what you were at Wake Forest, right? Andrew: [17:02] Yes. Technically, you’re only paid to teach. But the idea is that this is a temporary position where you are going to be doing some teaching/mentorship, research, but this is not a position that they want to be permanent and they are explicit about that from the get-go. You’re there you get benefits, but you’re not permanent. The idea is that you’re there to work with students and faculty, produce research and teach classes just like a normal faculty member would, but you’re not a permanent faculty member. There’s no pretense of you becoming permanent. And so then, you get into the actual like “permanent faculty ,” the one that can become tenured. Tenure is essentially a process by which you have a permanent job at the university. They can’t get rid of you except for very bad things to people, frankly. The reason behind it is, historically, it’s been to preserve academic integrity, and to make sure that professors aren’t fearing for their jobs anytime they publish a controversial paper, or anytime a student says, “Oh, this professor isn’t a good teacher because he gave me a bad grade,” that kind of thing. The tenure process is usually a few years. And so, that’s where we get into the assistant professors, like non-visiting assistant professors are people who could get tenure if they do well. What the process is will depend on the school, in the department, really. Some departments don’t care about student reviews. You can be an awful teacher and as long as you publish well, you’ll get a tenure. In fact, that’s how a lot of departments are. I shouldn’t say some departments, that’s how sadly many departments are. Most the time, it’s focused on what you publish and where, what kind of topics are you publishing in, how good are the journals, what’s the citation rate. Basically, are you spreading the name of yourself and the university by extension out into the world with your research showing that we’re doing really impressive things. Joseph: Okay, but you’re saying that most people who are permanent assistant professors, they are on the way eventually, assuming nothing goes horrendously wrong, to becoming a tenured professor. More often than not. Andrew: [19:04] More often than not, they’re going to get. I mean the thing is universities are pretty careful or departments really. Because it’s departments who are doing this job search. It’s not like you have an HR person who hires people. It’s usually the professors in the department have to go and search for people because they are the only people who are qualified to know what they need and what’s good, and what a good professor is going to be. For an HR person, it would be a nightmare because they wouldn’t know the difference between a good say Ph.D. physicist and a bad Ph.D. physicist. Joseph: Or like the different publications . . . Andrew: [19:28] Exactly. Or if it’s what the department needs right now. Because you could be a perfectly good physicist, economist, whatever, and they just don’t need that person right now. Like, “We really need somebody to teach this kind of course,” or when you really want someone to do this kind of research, and this person does a different kind of research. That was a problem I ran into a lot. I’m very familiar with that. The other reason is you’re very selective because they don’t want to do this again. If you’re the kind of person who gets selected, they probably are pretty confident you’re going to do enough work to get tenure. You’ve already shown a tracker. And so, it’s really just if you keep doing what you’re doing, you’re going to get tenure. The other reason is even if you falter and misstep a little bit, the department decides if you get tenure. The professors don’t really want to do another job search because it’s a lot of time. They have their own publications they have to do. They’ve got their own classes they got to teach. It’s a huge amount of work, on top of that. I’ve seen the job market from both sides and it’s a lot of work for everybody. So, as long as you’re doing the kind of stuff they expect you to do, they’re going to keep you around because that’s another 100, 200, 300 hours they don’t have to spend looking for another candidate and sifting through resumes and everything. Once you that threshold, you become an associate professor. He goes from assistant. If you do other specific things, which again is dependent on the university department, et cetera. Usually, it’s have students graduate, publish more papers, do service for the department, like be a chair of some committee, teach classes, do stuff, you become a full professor. Joseph: I guess we should also mention that this system you’re describing is kind of more of a North American System. It does not necessarily exist everywhere in the world. Certain countries follow this convention, but other countries for example, where I am in the UK, there’s no such thing as tenure, and it’s like a totally different system. But this is the system that you were in and that you were dealing with there in the United States. Andrew: [21:26] Yes. This is specific to the United States and Canada. Joseph: Just to kind of shift gears here then, thank you for giving us a lay of the land of how this trajectory could work out for somebody who’s in academia. What happened with your experience as a visiting professor? What was running through your head as you were thinking about your own career path? Were you thinking that you wanted to go down the tenure track where you gained for that? What was running through your head as you were teaching your undergraduate economics course at Wake Forest? Andrew: [21:53] I was torn, initially, because I really enjoyed the work I did. I enjoyed coming with research. I enjoyed teaching my students. I enjoyed coming up with courses. I gotten to teach a lot of different courses at Wake Forest University. I got to come up with my own course on inequality and history. It was a great time and it was really great working with students. But the caveat is I was a visiting assistant professor. I had this sort of Damocles hanging over me every year. Technically, I worked there for four years, but it was four one-year contracts. Every year I was going to job market, which as I mentioned is a stressful experience existentially, but also, it’s a lot of work. Because you got to apply to bunch of places you got to make, all these packets. It’s also worth mentioning that academic job applications are a bit of a different beast themselves. Usually, I have to come up with research plans specific to the needs of the university you’re working on. It’s a lot of writing just to make an application. You make dozens of these things. Joseph: You got to include like research samples, and the conferences you’ve attended, the grants. All that kind. Andrew: [22:54] You got to include all this material and often make new material and for every single thing you do. Because every university wants to see something a little bit different, everybody wants is feeling a little bit different. It’s a lot of work there. You have to make sure you have a new flashy paper ready to go in the job market with, that you can say the paper I’m going to use to showcase myself here. You make sure that you get that ready. You’re teaching in the fall, you’re doing this in the fall, which means you’re not doing any research because it’s not feasible. It’s really not possible. I like to say, I usually tell people that being a professor is three jobs. It’s teaching, research, and grant writing. For me, it was just research and teaching. I only had two full-time jobs, and I was already feeling the push. I don’t know how people do have to also write grants. Joseph: It’s almost like a vicious cycle I guess. Because you’re a visiting professor, you have to do these annual job hunts. And then, that detracts from your ability to do the research that would then otherwise help your journey to becoming a tenured professor. It’s like this vicious cycle that you’re in. Andrew: [23:52] Ultimately, what I realized was that it was treading water and that treading was getting harder and harder. It was getting like bigger and bigger weights tied to my legs. The more years I was in it, the more exhausted I got. The worse it looked for me to be a visitor for that long. That vicious cycle was starting to create a whirlpool around me. I just realized that it wasn’t what I wanted. It wasn’t worth it. Joseph: Let’s talk about the transition then. How did you get into the private sector? How did you make that pivot? Because I know this is a question that does come up and has been coming up more recently. I’ve seen news articles about more academics wanting to leave academia, moving into the private sector. How did you go about doing it? Andrew: [24:36] The first times I tried were very unsuccessful. My first attempts to pivot in the private sector were actually back in 2019. What I realized was I didn’t know how to sell myself and I didn’t have any credentials that anyone in outside of academia understood anything about. That was itself very disheartening. I really didn’t get any traction in any meaningful way in the private sector. But then, when I got more serious about it in 2020, which came after that you know spring break, I mentioned that never really ended, I knew some stuff and I knew how to do some things but I didn’t know how to communicate in a way that the people on the other side hiring would understand. Luckily, I found some resources and I learned how to do coding in Python rather than some of the other software packages I was using. Joseph: How did you learn how to do that? Andrew: [25:25] I started just by ing it and doing stuff, and googling things. Also working with like some other open source software, and just making some stuff. I did have some help from my wife who was very ive. She had been doing Python for a while because some of her departments had pushed Python. They don’t want to pay for Math lab anymore. I found this program called The Data Incubator. I definitely got into the data science Python world more expediently than I probably would have otherwise. What I really learned from them was how to talk about things in a way that made sense to non-academics, and how to comport myself for interviews and job market practices in the private sector, which is substantially different from the public sector in academia. Joseph: Where did you ultimately land as your first private sector job? Andrew: [26:12] I ended up getting a job at NNDATA, which is a contract company that mostly works with the Department of Defense and other public sector entities, solving data problems. It was really great that I got to go there because they threw me at a lot of different projects really fast. In a year and a half that I was there, I got to work on probably got a half dozen different projects on very different topics. Doing stuff from your natural language processing to big data, to small data, to anomaly detection, to everything in between. I got to do a lot of fun stuff. That really helped me not only broaden my horizons in of data science but talk about things and know what technologies are out there. It gave me a crash course and basically all of data science, plus data engineering, plus some other things. A really great opportunity. Joseph: When you were there, can you just describe the major differences that you found working in the private sector for a company versus working for a university? Andrew: [27:14] I was technically in my contract with the universities protected against all kinds of things. But I was still a one-year contract. I weirdly felt more protected in this at-will employment contract because it didn’t have a definite end date. Knowing that I wasn’t under the gun to either find a new job or get my contract renewed every year was probably the biggest most positive change that I didn’t even know I needed. I didn’t realize how exhausting it was until it wasn’t there anymore. I was just like I feel so much better. I can enjoy things. The other thing was it was actually weirdly a lot more collaborative. Now, maybe it’s because economics is kind of a field in academia where people tend to work in either singular or small groups. Even the ones who are very collaborative don’t work that closely with each other. There’s often usually just a bunch of stuff they’re doing on their own. In this case, it was really interesting to have a team to collaborate with and have ideas with, talk about things, help each other. If I got stuck on a problem, ask somebody. I could help people if they got stuck on problems. It was quite nice to have that atmosphere. Joseph: It sounds like things are going quite well for you at NNDATA, how did you then end up shifting from there to Kforce? Andrew: [28:27] I was kind of sad to leave. The reason I left though was that I got essentially a better offer. I had met some people who put me in touch with other people and in conversations about data science and solutions in general. I ended up also meeting one of the practice leaders at Kforce who decided for some reason that he wanted to have me on his team. He was a guy who was more of a data engineer and he wanted to bring data science to Kforce. For some reason, he figured that I was the person he wanted to do this. I don’t know how. The conversation I had with this guy started back in like October of 2021. What we were just talking about data science in general, and what the future of it was as we saw it. It wasn’t until June of this year, eight months later, they ended up ing me and said, “Hey! Are you still interested in doing this?” From there, went really fast and we had interviews, and I ended up getting chosen for this position. I think what it was about was just that the breadth of things I could talk about in very academia detail, what convinced this guy to push for me and to push to start this thing now. Joseph: So you weren’t actively looking for a role. This was an example that we talk about on the show quite a bit of just staying in touch with people, keeping the communication lines open, and sometimes over the long run, opportunities pop up. The last thing, before we talk about some of the lessons that you’ve learned along the way of your career change journey, moving from academia into the private sector, could I just also ask you what if anything do you miss about the world of academia? Andrew: [30:11] It’s hard to say now because I’m aware on both experiential level, a statistical level, and also I guess to add into that a sort of game theoretical level. Understanding why the academic job markets are so problematic. Extricating the job from the job market is difficult in my mind. But I suppose if I do miss anything, it’s probably working with the students, and helping them to develop their own understanding of say economics because that’s what I did. I thought I would miss the research, but really as a data scientist, I kind of get to still do it just without all the having to pay thousands of dollars to a paper to publish your work. I can just put stuff on papers with code or on archive, and do so if I want to share things. But really, it’s the same spirit of pushing the boundaries, testing the possible, and experimenting. Academics would probably say it lacks rigor. It probably does, but it’s also way more results-oriented and doesn’t take nearly as long to implement things. But I say it’s the same spirit, so I don’t have to miss the research. Joseph: If there is an academic out there who’s listening to this, do you have any thoughts on how they can think about whether or not they should consider moving into the private sector, or an industry role, or the corporate world? Any thoughts on who it is for and who it’s not for coming out of academics? Andrew: [31:39] I would say that it’s always worth considering the private sector. You should never not consider it. But if you’ve considered and you’re not sure what to do in the future, what I think helped me was that I realized that the process of research, the process of the job market, didn’t make the potential of a tenure training job worth it. I think what is important to think about from an academic’s perspective, if you value more the results of research and the implementation of your results, then the research itself in an ivory tower, it’s definitely worth getting into the private sector. Because you can find places to do the same things just as much in the private sector as you did in public sector or in academia, and you won’t have what I’d say the stifling rigmarole of the journal system holding you back. Joseph: The last thing I want to talk about before we wrap up with maybe having a quick chat about The Data Incubator because I know we kind of skimmed over that. I do want to come back to that. I just wanted to hear a little bit about the lessons that you’ve learned along the way of your journey. The first question is just it sounds like you’re quite happy in the transition that you’ve made. If you had to give advice to your younger self as it relates to changing career paths, what might that be? Andrew: [33:02] You know more than you give yourself credit for. I mentioned the beginning of this conversation how good the dissertation is at breaking you down and building you back up and making you be precise about everything. What you have to is that while you’ve gone through that and you’re still probably in the aftershocks of it, and you know those aftershocks might last your whole life of you thinking that you don’t know definitively things. You know more than yourself credit for, and you need to be able to have the confidence and self-awareness to build yourself as such. Put on the hypothetical billboards of what you know and never be afraid to assert yourself in that way. Joseph: When you look back on your career transition, what’s something that you wished you had known that you now know? Andrew: [33:51] There’s no real reason to be nostalgic about academia. It can be scary and unfamiliar leaving, but it really doesn’t stay that way for very long. There’s so many people who need so many things that you will find something. Especially if you have you know a Ph.D., you know something very well. Somebody needs that to do something else. Joseph: And having been through this career change where you have now successfully crossed the chasm from academia into the private sector, what’s one thing you’ve learned about yourself along the way? Andrew: [34:29] I am very good at adapting. I’m very good at being thrown into a situation where I don’t know I’m supposed to lead the meeting, but I get put to lead the meeting so I have to go based on what I know about the client to have an intelligent conversation about the thing we’re supposed to be doing. I’m good at being the guy who they need something to show somebody. They say, “Please come up with something in the next day.” We don’t know what they want but do something that’s impressive. And I’ll come up with something. I’m very good at thinking off my feet and at adapting to situations that they come. I know some people don’t like that. I realized more than academia had been giving me the chance to show that I was able to do that, and that’s actually kind of what I like. It keeps things fresh. I don’t mind having projects that are ambiguous where suddenly the client reveals what they really want, and we have to change our perspectives and reorient ourselves quickly. Joseph: I want to wrap up with something I know has been important to your own career trajectory. I know you mentioned that The Data Incubator was one of the reasons why you were able to make this leap. Can you just tell me a little bit more about The Data Incubator and how it helps people move out of academia and into the private sector? Andrew: [35:48] The Data Incubator is a program that’s designed to give people certifications in data science work, or also data engineering now. When I did it, it was just data science but now they also do data engineering. The point is they are acutely aware of the problems I was talking about where people know stuff, they know how to do technical things, they’re very talented people, but they don’t know how to get their foot in the door in the corporate world or in the private sector for whatever reason. What The Data Incubator is about is two things really. I would say it’s two things. It’s about teaching skills. They take people who are otherwise good at math, stats, whatever but don’t necessarily know how to program or code because they might have been taught in programs that don’t do those things as much as they maybe should in the modern era. They teach them how to code in Python, how to use these packages, how to do data science, how to train models, how to use their expertise in other areas in Mathematics, and translate that into the programmable results from a computer in computation. The other thing they do that I think is very important is they explicitly teach you how to do a job search, which is something I never really got taught even in academia. They just kind of said, “Oh, go and apply for jobs!” And no one ever really told me like what you should be doing and how you actually get a job. These people do that they sit down with people say, “Here’s how you write a good resume.” They have people help you structure your resume to emphasize your best traits, to help you structure cover letters. Like, “Here’s how you should write a cover letter for this kind of job.” “Here’s how you should approach an interview.” It was really about translating the fonts you have from academia, putting it into a funnel and out into a way that people outside of academia can understand so they can know how valuable you are. Joseph: Very interesting. It sounds like they played a huge role in your own career, and it’s playing a huge role in other people’s careers. Thanks for walking us through that. I’ll definitely include a link in the show notes so people can learn more about The Data Incubator. Well, thank you so much, Andrew, for taking the time to tell us more about the world of academia that you left behind, how you manage the transition into the private sector, and also the importance of moving on when the time feels right for you. Best of luck with your new role there at Kforce, and I hope everything continues to go well for you as you head down this new career path. Andrew: [37:59] Thank you very much, Joseph. Once again, thank you for having me on the show. It’s been a pleasure.