PhD Career Stories 4u4o33

Are you one of the people who feels shy ing LinkedIn? Do you know about its potential but still hold back, in fear of having nothing worth sharing? You are definitely not the only one, and today’s guest has some wisdom to share! our host, Elisabeth Reithuber, for an inspiring talk with Ashley Ruba, a psychology researcher turned UX researcher and career coach. Ashley is a psychologist by training, holding a PhD in Developmental Psychology from University of Washington, a field where she also did a post doc, before jumping into the world of experience (UX) research. Today, she works as a human factors engineer at the medical technology company Arthrex, in Florida, USA, while also juggling a career coaching program for academics, After Academia. Today, Ashley tells us all about how she used LinkedIn and other social media to pivot from academia into a completely different industry, her path to get to her current job, and how the way people resonated with her words inspired her to make a second career out of helping PhDs advancing their careers. She also tells Elisabeth about the skills that were transferable to her new job and the things that she had to, instead, unlearn. Among other things, Ashley advises you to pick a career niche to focus on, emphasizes how important a branding tool LinkedIn is, and gently nudges you to lose your inhibitions in order to connect with people who will help propel you towards your dream job! For the transcript, please click here: https://phdcareerstories.com/pub/aruba PhD Career Stories is on all major Social Media channels. To receive more content regularly, follow us on YouTube, LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, and our website.  

Do you feel stuck? Do you tend to procrastinate taking the next steps in your career? If you want to find out why this happens and how to move forward, you should listen to today’s conversation with Dr. Marie-Hélène Pelletier and our host, Dr. Tina Persson. Marie-Hélène is a trained psychologist who holds a PhD and an MBA from the University of British Columbia, Vancouver. Throughout her career, she has had a prominent role within several organizations and publications in discussing important topics such as workplace mental health and leadership resilience, having authored an book on the topic, titled "The Resilience Plan”. In this episode, in an almost coaching-session-like fashion, Marie-Hélène and Tina discuss common situations and cases they have found while helping people with their careers. They converse about how to move from thinking into action, practicing self-comion, and gradually training exposure to stress in order to build resilience. Marie-Hélène also emphasizes the importance of looking inward and grounding ourselves in our own values, despite external expectations. By the end of the episode, you will have heard advice about managing expectations and nurturing and investing in your brain - a sample toolkit that can help you “take the one first action” towards your next goal! For the transcript, please click here: https://phdcareerstories.com/pub/mhpelletier PhD Career Stories is on all major Social Media channels. To receive more content regularly, follow us on YouTube, LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, and our website.  

Has your academic path lacked solid mentorship and ? Do you feel that, in order to move up, you need management skills that weren’t ed on to you during the PhD? Well, Flávia Sousa has “been-there, done-that” and in today’s episode she tells our host, Tina Persson, how she is working on making it easier for you! Flávia Sousa holds a PhD in Biomedical Sciences from ICBAS, in Portugal, and is currently a Senior Scientist at Adolph Merkle Institute, in Switzerland. Her current goal is to become a full professor, and she is also the founder of her own company and ion project, LYRIS, which is focused on providing mentorship and courses for PhD students and postdoctoral researchers. During the episode, Flávia talks about her drive to help other academics succeed in the less science-focused parts of their jobs, and how LYRIS came to be. While exploring her personal experiences in international environments, she and Tina talk about the most important skills for the future, such as language learning, teaching skills, and the ability to manage people. Flávia also shares how crucial it is to choose a country where you will be happy even outside of work and a ive supervisor, but she also highlights that, most of all, you should “enjoy life!” through it all! For the transcript, please click here: https://phdcareerstories.com/pub/fsousa PhD Career Stories is on all major Social Media channels. To receive more content regularly, follow us on YouTube, LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, and our website.

Are you feeling frustrated and unproductive in academia? Do you feel compelled to quit and completely change your career? us for an inspiring episode hosted by Tina Persson, featuring Gry Wester, a fellow PhD Career Stories listener who transitioned from academia to consulting. Gry holds a PhD focused on health inequality and population health ethics, and she was a lecturer in bioethics in the Department of Global Health and Social Medicine at King's College London for nearly five years, after which she pivoted careers. Today, she works at the consultancy company IQVIA, in London. In the episode, Tina and Gry reminisce about early coaching sessions and important topics they brushed on back then, such as persistence in the face of the grueling job-search, and then dive deeper into Gry’s self-discovery journey, as she shares the mindset shift that propelled her into the consultancy world. They reflect on the initial challenges of Gry’s first job as well as the key working style differences that made her realize she was a better fit for the corporate world, rather than academia. Gry also offers you valuable tips on career shift, highlighting the importance of networking, maintaining your personal well-being during the job search, and learning to let go of perfectionism. At the end of the day, you have to “trust the process!”. For the transcript, please click here: https://phdcareerstories.com/pub/gwester PhD Career Stories is on all major Social Media channels. To receive more content regularly, follow us on YouTube, LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, and our website.

Are you a recent or soon-to-be PhD graduate trying to figure out the next steps? Have the events of the past few years gotten you interested in Science Communication? In this episode, you will hear from Katharina Schwaiger, who has been in a very similar spot! Katharina holds a PhD in Biotechnology from the Technical University of Graz and currently works as a science communicator at the Austrian Center of Industrial Biotechnology (ACIB), a position she took on while still finishing her PhD thesis! In this episode, Katharina tells our host, Elisabeth Reithuber, how she became interested in pursuing a career in science communication after working on a SciComm project at ACIB and also after witnessing the disconnect between the scientific community and society, during the pandemic. They talk about Katarina’s experience juggling her new position with the final stretch of her PhD, and about which PhD skills can help you be a great science communicator…and which skills you might need to learn on your own! Katharina’s warm advice touches on themes like finding your inner drive and learning to ask (for guidance, for a job…). Don’t forget, “sometimes, you have to feel the fear” and do it anyway!   For the transcript, please click here: https://phdcareerstories.com/pub/kschwaiger PhD Career Stories is on all major Social Media channels. To receive more content regularly, follow us on YouTube, LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, and our website.

Have you ever found yourself in a situation where you realized the need for a fresh job title that better aligns with your responsibilities and skills? In this episode of PhD Career Stories, our host Elisabeth Reithuber as she sits down with Martin Trinker, the Director of Business Development and Fundraising at the Austrian Center of Industrial Biotechnology (ACIB) to explore the intriguing journey of creating a new job position from scratch. Martin's journey exemplifies the potential that lies in identifying gaps, embracing diverse skill sets, and creating one's own path in the professional world. Discover how Martin identified a crucial need and forged his unique position, combining his PhD in biotechnology with a background in economics. As the conversation unfolds, Martin shares valuable advice on networking, continuous learning, and adapting to new challenges.   Don't miss this episode full of inspiration and invaluable insights. Tune in to PhD Career Stories to hear Martin Trinker's incredible journey from a biotechnology PhD to a leader in business development and fundraising. For the transcript, please click here: https://phdcareerstories.com/pub/mtrinker PhD Career Stories is on all major Social Media channels. To receive more content regularly, follow us on YouTube, LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, and our website.

You might have always wanted to be an academic, but what if your academic research brought up a groundbreaking technology that you knew could dramatically revolutionize industrial processes? Would you choose to stay in academia or pivot to industry and bring your idea to market? Well, it is possible to do both!  This episode’s guest, Simon Rittman, shares with our host, Tina Persson, all about his experience with founding a company while still holding a position in academia. Simon Rittmann is the CSO and co-founder of Arkeon, a biotechnology company focused on alternative food production technologies. Additionally, he serves as the Principal Investigator at the Archaea Physiology & Biotechnology group at the University of Vienna, where he also shares his ion through teaching. Simon and Tina discuss the crucial steps and the strategic planning that go into building a start-up as an academic, highlighting the importance of finding the right people to help bring one’s entrepreneurial vision to life. Further in the episode, they delve into the personal qualities needed to take the leap. They also talk about the concept of a dual career, how to keep “one foot in academia, one foot in the industry”, the motivations behind that choice, and how to manage both.  With Simon’s advice, you will learn that you can have the best of both worlds, if only you are flexible, open to personal growth and pick the right business-minded people to complement your scientific skills and build a great team! Stay tuned! For the transcript, please click here: https://phdcareerstories.com/pub/srittmann PhD Career Stories is on all major Social Media channels. To receive more content regularly, follow us on YouTube, LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, and our website.

Are you curious why soft skills are crucial for your career growth? Whether you're a seasoned professional or just starting out, this podcast is your gateway to practical tips, real-life examples, and expert insights that will help you harness the full potential of soft skills. In today’s episode, our host Tina Persson will have a roundtable discussion with our guests Patricia Carvajal, David Morrow, Antonio L. Andreu (Toni) and Alex Gardiol from EATRIS. EATRIS is a non-profit, European research infrastructure for translation medicine that focuses on improving and optimising preclinical and early clinical development of drugs, vaccines and diagnostics, and overcoming barriers to health innovation. them as they talk about soft skills and reveal why they hold the key to unparalleled success in any professional setting. From effective communication to taking risks and being able to adapt, these hidden gems go beyond technical expertise, empowering you to thrive in the job market. , in the competitive job market, it's not just about what you know but how you apply it. Soft skills make the difference, so let's dive in and elevate your career to new heights. Stay tuned! For the transcript, please click here: https://phdcareerstories.com/pub/eatris PhD Career Stories is on all major Social Media channels. To receive more content regularly, follow us on YouTube, LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, and our website.

Are you feeling left behind, questioning if your traditional methods are outdated in this era of AI tools? Do you grapple with ethical concerns when utilizing ChatGPT for specific tasks, feeling a sense of cheating? Or do you proudly embrace ChatGPT as your go-to solution for all your needs? Tina Persson and Joel Baker explore the importance of striking a balance between these approaches and bring together their insightful perspectives on these thought-provoking topics.   Joel Baker is an English coach from World English Coaches. His personal journey of learning Spanish ignited a ion within him to assist others in achieving their goal of fluent English communication. Joel specializes in coaching leaders and executives and through his coaching, he has successfully guided and ed over 500 individuals in achieving their goal of fluent English communication.   In this episode, Tina and Joel discuss how you can make use of ChatGPT for your needs but with certain limitations. They also dive into the do's and don'ts of incorporating ChatGPT into your application journey, emphasizing the importance of maintaining a human touch throughout the process. Last but not least, they emphasize the significance of staying up-to-date with the latest trends, while also cautioning against excessive reliance on AI tools that may hinder your personal growth.   Get ready to ignite your curiosity and delve into an exciting episode that explores the burning questions surrounding the integration of AI tools like ChatGPT into our lives. Stay tuned!   For the transcript, please click here: https://phdcareerstories.com/pub/jbaker PhD Career Stories is on all major Social Media channels. To receive more content regularly, follow us on YouTube, LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, and our website.

Have you ever stepped out of your comfort zone and excelled in something that you thought was not your cup of tea? This is one of the topics out of many that Tina Persson and Bryan Quoc Le share with us in this episode.   Bryan Quoc Le is a food scientist, food industry consultant, and author of 150 Food Science Questions Answered. He earned his PhD in 2020, in the middle of the Covid-19 pandemic, and ended up starting and growing a food consulting business shortly thereafter. Bryan has been working with well-established companies in the food industry such as Blue Diamond Growers, The Good Food Institute, TurtleTree, Black Sheep Foods, and many others.   In this episode, Tina and Bryan talk about how adversities in life change our paths, and how Bryan with his can-do attitude “made lemonade” when life provided him with lemons. They talk about curiosity, resilience and much more.   Listen to this episode and get inspired by Bryan’s journey.   For the transcript, please click here: https://phdcareerstories.com/pub/qle   PhD Career Stories is on all major Social Media channels. To receive more content regularly, follow us on YouTube, LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, and our website.

Are you looking forward to pursuing a postdoc career in the USA? Are you living in Europe, but dreaming of a long-term career in the USA? Are you looking forward to pursuing a postdoc career in the USA? Then this is an excellent episode for you as Tina Persson and Thalyana Stathis extensively discuss the application strategies for a postdoc position in the USA.  Thalyana Stathis is the Associate Director of the Office of Career and Professional Development for postdocs and PhD students at Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center (MSKCC) in NYC. As a career advisor, she s hundreds of students and postdocs in each stage of their career planning. She also directs workshops for career exploration and navigating the job market for all academic and non-academic career paths. Tina and Thalyana talk about the common mistakes that many PhDs do when applying for a postdoc application. One of the great tips from Thalyana is about how to use your current network to reach out to your future research lab/company. Thalyana also provides many tips regarding the different visa options. If you have any questions about how to apply to postdoc positions at MSK, how to faculty you are interested in working with, or how to learn more information about different labs at MSK, please feel free to email Thalyana Stathis at stathist [at] mskcc.org or connect with her on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/thalyanasmithvikos/).   Listen to this episode to know more about this in detail.   For the transcript, please click here: https://phdcareerstories.com/pub/tstathis PhD Career Stories is on all major Social Media channels. To receive more content regularly, follow us on YouTube, LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, and our website.

During your PhD, have you ever thought if the world actually needs your research? Would people want to use your product? In this episode, Tina Persson and Sajni Haria discuss the entrepreneurial mindset that PhDs can train themselves with if they start thinking of the bigger picture of commercialising their research. Sajni also reminds us of how PhDs do not just have an academic skill set but also a vast set of transferable skills that can help them translate their research.  Sajni holds a PhD in Chemistry from the University of Birmingham and currently is a Business Development Manager at the National Institute of Health and Care Research. She s the Life Science industry to navigate the UK’s clinical research ecosystem whilst providing her business acumen. Sajni also talks about how she transitioned from a doctoral researcher to a Business Development Manager where she helps to push research technologies forward, and finds opportunities for implementing these technologies in the real-world setting by fostering collaborations, thereby improving the quality of life of patients.  Listen to this episode to know more about Sajni’s insights.  For the transcript, please click here: https://phdcareerstories.com/pub/sharia PhD Career Stories is on all major Social Media channels. To receive more content regularly, follow us on YouTube, LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, and our website.

’I really never knew how I felt in the lab, what does it really mean [for me]?... I’m a creative person, I love to meet people [and] I realised that being in the lab can be quite lonely’, Sara asked herself during her time as a PhD candidate. In this episode, Tina Persson, the founder of PhD Career Stories, interviews Sara Andersson, who tells us about her PhD journey and how she became a talent advisor at Mpya Sci & Tech. Sara finished her PhD in Pharmaceutical Sciences at Uppsala University where she gained experience as a manager, problem-solver and critical thinker. During her PhD years, she learned in detail about the pharmaceutical industry and she also chaired the doctoral committee which tremendously helped her to understand the skills and the challenges faced by a PhD candidate.  In this podcast, Sara also shares how she got her job as a recruiter and how this fits her previous experiences. Since Sara herself has travelled the path of a PhD, she understands the applicant’s journey, which allows her to help, advise and recruit graduates in the science and technology fields. Do you want to know more? Listen to this interesting and insightful episode. Enjoy!   For the transcript, please click here: https://phdcareerstories.com/pub/sandersson PhD Career Stories is on all major Social Media channels. To receive more content regularly, follow us on YouTube, LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, and our website.

”[On average,] one farmer commited suicide every 30 minutes in India”,  Aditya Parekh remarks as he talks to our host, Tina Persson. This fact is what changed his mind and sparked his interest in changing that reality. He knew he wanted to help them. In this episode, Aditya shares his journey and challenges in the academic transition from Oncology and Molecular Biology to Sustainable Farming in the School of Design at Anant National University, India. Aditya followed his gut when it came to making major career decision after his Postdoc. During his later half of PhD and while pursuing his postdoctoral research, he developed a consuming ion for changing the high number of suicides committed by Indian farmers. Aditya trusted his gut and made a unique transition to Sustainable Farming as an Assistant Professor. His goal is to connect the student community with farmers and sustainable farming practices, to help the farmers with diverse solutions, and to create awareness of their situation. Alongside, he also finds motivation to help young researchers in their career journey, through talks and meetings. If you want to know more about his challenges and this unconventional transition, make sure to listen to this episode! For the transcript, please click here: https://phdcareerstories.com/pub/aparekh  PhD Career Stories is on all major Social Media channels. To receive more content regularly, follow us on YouTube, LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, and our Website.

In an age of misinformation, it has become essential for science to reach the public audience in a transparent manner. As a graduate in science, have you ever thought of communicating your science with the world? In this episode, Santoshi Devadas talks to Priya Rangan, who tells us everything about her journey to becoming a scientific communications specialist.  Priya holds a PhD in Biology of Ageing and has 11 years of experience working in academic research and pharmaceutical settings. She transitioned to science communication because she is ionate about it. Priya wants to translate what scientists are doing in a way which makes sense to people who are completely outside of it.  ”...I do believe that scientific communication is a field that is going to change a lot of things within academia, within industry …and the general public,  [who] I think are the most important of all.”, says Priya. At the end of the interview, Priya advised our listeners on the job hunt: Set up your LinkedIn profile as well as you do it for your resume. After meeting people either in person or online, send them a message explaining why you want to connect with them, rather than merely sending them a connection request. Make a connection with them. Prioritise your mental health and know that your life is not just the lab or your job, it’s also everything else outside of it. If you want to know more about how Priya aligned her life and career goals, while pursuing her ion, listen to this episode! Enjoy it! For the transcript, please click here: https://phdcareerstories.com/pub/prangan PhD Career Stories is on all major Social Media channels. To receive more content regularly, follow us on YouTube, LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, and our Website.

Am I fit for a PhD? My experiments are going nowhere. Will I see the end of this PhD? I only have academic experience, how will I find a job in the industry? Have you ever been in these situations? Our guest Marisa Pereira had asked herself these same questions, but today Marisa has successfully completed her PhD and transitioned to the biotech industry as a Project Manager. She also is the co-founder and owner of pic.cell, a unique company that designs textiles inspired by microscopic images.   In today’s episode, Marisa shares with us the highs and lows of her career path. She addresses how she overcame the snags during her PhD, how she started her brand pic.cell, and how - after 2 years of Postdoc experience - she landed in the biotech industry. Throughout the episode, Marisa shares many tips not just to survive but also to thrive while doing a PhD.Last but not least, Marisa shares a vital piece of advice “....enjoy the journey. PhD is only a part of your life. In the end, what is interesting, is the knowledge that you [gained] as a professional but even most important as a person.”   If you want to learn more about Marisa’s story, listen to this episode now.   For the transcript, please click here: https://phdcareerstories.com/pub/mpereira   PhD Career Stories is now on major social media channels. To receive more content regularly, follow us on YouTube, LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, and our Website.

Sometimes life hits you hard, and then you have to make new decisions you hadn’t imagined making.  Previous goals and ambitions can evaporate, especially after enduring something emotionally, psychologically, and/or spiritually harrowing.  Our guest Andrew McKee was tested by tragedy, on top of career confusion, when he entered an MD/PhD program but realized midway he wasn’t on the right track.  He decided to quit his PhD and embarked on a journey of experimentation and self-discovery.   Today, Andrew has 20+ years of experience in biotechnology, pharmaceuticals, diagnostics and healthcare sectors. He is the CEO and founder of Headland Strategy Group, a consultancy firm with offices in the US and Asia and specialising in growth strategy for therapeutics and diagnostics companies. Andrew has previously worked for McKinsey and Company, Google, Genentech and holds biomedical engineering and MD degrees from Duke University. He also is a published writer and holds patents licensed to industry. He is a husband, a father of 3 children, and a professional saxophonist.   In today’s episode, our host Tina Persson welcomes Andrew McKee. They talk about how Andrew, even after quitting his PhD, made such an impressive career. They discuss music, art, entrepreneurship, and the importance of networking with people from different walks of life. He also gives insights into his life and about his life mentors who advised him to take a leap of faith.   On the cusp of a critical life decision, one of Andrew’s mentors “...encouraged me that if I take time to reflect and get still, I probably know more than I realise [about what I should do].”   If you want to learn more about Andrew’s successful journey, including different ideas for facing major life challenges, make sure to listen to this episode.   For the show transcript, please click here: https://phdcareerstories.com/pub/amckee   PhD Career Stories is now on major social media channels. To receive more content regularly, follow us on YouTube, LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, and our Website.

Have you spent so much time thinking through career choices that  you could make but ended up making no decision at all? Sounds familiar? This is called analysis paralysis, which is very common among perfectionists. In this episode, one of our PhDCS team , Santoshi Devadas, had the pleasure to interview Isabeau Iqbal who helps ambitious perfectionists in higher education. She guides them to overcome analysis paralysis and move forward with their goals.  Isabeau is a certified career and life coach with more than 20 years of experience ing academics and faculty in their professional growth.  In addition to her career services, she also has her YouTube channel where she regularly shares tips and tricks with her audience.  During the interview, Isabeau provides us with approaches to network efficiently, job searching strategies and ways to better know your values. She also shares the importance of knowing your strengths. Check out the episode resource section to find the links to the strengths assessments mentioned. In the end, Isabeau left three main takeaway messages: Take the initiative! Network! Get to know your values and strengths! …” these seem quick tips but they require time investment from your side”... said Isabeau. If you want to learn more about ways of overcoming your indecisiveness and taking the next step in your career, this episode is for you! Enjoy it!   PhD Career Stories is now on major social media channels. To receive more content regularly, follow us on YouTube, LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, and our Website. Episode Resources: Free - VIA Character Strengths Survey: https://www.viacharacter.org/  Free at present - Standout by Marcus Buckingham: https://www.marcusbuckingham.com/  Free - High5: https://high5test.com/  Paid - CliftonStrengths Assessment: https://www.gallup.com/cliftonstrengths/en/252137/home.aspx

In this episode, Tina Persson talks to Mark Herschberg about how to learn to become an entrepreneur. Mark’s recently published book “The Career Toolkit, Essential Skills for Success That No One Taught You” gives deeper insights into this topic. Mark has a diverse background ranging from Physics, Electrical Engineering, Computer Science, and Cryptography, to extensive business expertise. His wide experience has enabled him to launch and develop new ventures at start-ups and Fortune 500s. In addition to this, Mark also annually teaches in the Undergraduate Practice Opportunities Program, famously known as MIT's “career success accelerator”. During the conversation, Tina asked Mark about who is an entrepreneur, how to train to become an entrepreneur, and what are the challenges in it. Mark addresses these questions and many more such as describing types of entrepreneurs, the required mindset, and how to find business opportunities. Finally, Tina inquired about his three top tips for starting a company: Create a ive business network in different fields. Look for a co-founder, make sure you are compatible, and make written agreements. Don’t worry about being right. Just try not to be wrong. It means that when you build a product, you should keep other possible options around as long as you can, and at the lowest costs possible. Is being an entrepreneur the next chapter in your life? If so, you cannot miss this episode! Enjoy listening! For show transcript please click here: https://phdcareerstories.com/pub/mherschberg PhD Career Stories is now on major social media channels. To receive more content regularly, follow us on YouTube, LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, and our Website.

In this episode, Tina Persson interviews Niba Audrey Nirmal, a science communicator. Niba is dedicated to hosting and producing science videos related to plants, skincare and cosmetics. If you are curious, you can find Niba’s work on her YouTube channel NotesByNiba. During the interview, she shares her career path and talks about her decision to not pursue her PhD further. She also tells us about the factors that drove her to follow a career in Science Communication. In addition, she openly talks about her confidence levels in pre- and post-academia times, her journey in searching for a job outside academia and finally she shares her networking strategies.   At the end of the conversation, she gives some important tips for all graduates: Do not isolate yourself! Be communicative with your network (family, friends, etc) and ask for help when you need it. They are there to help you! Every time you have an informational interview with someone related to your career interests, ask them to recommend three other people from their network so that you can build your own network further.    A steady workload does not mean you are not doing enough in your career.    Are you making a transition from academia? If so, you should definitely listen to this episode and take these tips with you. Enjoy this episode!   PhD Career Stories is now on major social media channels. To receive more content regularly, follow us on YouTube, LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, and on our Website. TRANSCRIPT   Tina: So hi, welcome. This is Tina Persson with PhD Career Stories, and I welcome Niba. She's the guest here today. And who is Niba? Well, she is based in San Francisco. She has done research on tomatoes in Brady’s Lab. Then she was a PhD student in Benfey Lab at the Duke University, where she studied the gene network in stem cells. And at that time, she also explored her spare time in activities and interests in photography, in fashion and in cosmetics and created Notes by Niba on how to create beauty using biology and science. And today, Niba has her own YouTube channel and her Instagram. Welcome, Niba. Niba: Thank you so much for having me, it's been a really great journey. Now I'm kind of like a science video host and producer. You can find all of my stuff on Instagram,Twitter, TikTok, but I actually produce stuff for a lot of other places too, so excited to talk to you guys a little bit about Science Communication and the kind of things that people don't tell you when you're leaving graduate school, and kind of the the pros and cons of that choice. Tina: The pros and cons of what to do, because today you work on Science Communication, you are a content writer and you are a video producer. And I am a bit curious here. You started off as a researcher. And then you took a very deliberate decision not to continue your graduate studies to become a PhD. What initiated that process? I'm super curious to learn because there are so many PhDs that are scared not to finish their PhD.  Niba: Yeah, I think honestly it was a combo of many things, but I think ultimately for people watching it comes down to: does the PhD really fit what you want to do with your career, and are you still in a healthy place in doing your PhD? The research shows abysmal rates for pretty bad mental health consequences of being a graduate student. My experience was in the United States, so I can't speak to all places, but it seems to be kind of a worldwide thing. For me personally, it was kind of an amalgamation of multiple factors. I had some personal life issues happening and at the same time COVID kind of like just struck. At the same time, my Youtube had been kind of like discovered by a couple of people, and none of those discoveries actually lead to anything at that time at least, but it kind of gave me some confidence of like “alright, maybe I'm not just like sitting on my bedroom floor and talking to my phone and maybe this actually is something”. I realized that was something I really wanted to do, just like make videos about science not just science in, you know, plant stem cells but also like “how does cosmetics work?”,” why is it that your makeup with SPF comes off faster than your makeup without SPF?”, “how does clear lipstick turn into a color when it's on your lips?”, things like that that just kind of show how science can be used in all the different ways. There's tons of skin care science people out there, and it's kind of adding my voice and my aesthetic and my kind of branding to that and as I was kind of like making all these videos and COVID was happening, I realized that, you know, I don't think that this PhD is something that I need anymore for my career and that was like a very weird moment because up until then I was like very set on “I'm going to be a professor”. I had thought that I was going to be a professor since I was 17 years old. And all of my life had been leading up to that moment and there is this weird kind of like sense of you haven't, you're not good enough if you decide to leave, which is obviously not true. Like you've made it to the program, there's not much more you have to do, except you have to do the work. But, you know, it's a pretty long process. You're not being compensated fairly, which can disproportionately affect certain groups. There are some people who, you know, have their parents’ help in buying them a house. And then there's other people like me who have to like, you know, just pay money just to rent, to exist, you know. So all these little disparities really come out, especially when you're making like three or four or five times less than what you should accurately be getting paid. And, you know, people think it's like a whole sellout. “Oh, you left just because you wanted some money?” No, I also wanted to survive. You know, I wanted to like go to the grocery store and not pick something that was $0.50 cheaper just because I had no money. It was ridiculous. And so since I no longer needed my PhD in order to kind of achieve my goals, I was like “Well, why am I here?” And at the same time, a lot of personal things happened. I made a really long video about that. It's on my channel if you guys want to check it out. But the essence of it and a slight trigger warning to people who are experiencing any kind of death or mental illness at this moment. My mom was diagnosed with cancer and not given a very great outlook. And so it kind of put a lot of things in perspective for me. I think COVID did that for a lot of people too, just like, you know, what is the point of life? Why do I want to be here now with kind of like the great resignation? We see a lot of people questioning: Why am I sacrificing so many things for a job? You know, I don't think anyone should have brand loyalty for a place that they're working at because they don't have any brand loyalty towards you. My job starts treating me badly. I'll quit the next day. I don't care. Like, that's fine. But you don't get to do that in a PhD, so you don't have these kinds of options available to you. But leaving was definitely the right choice. It was a really bleak time to leave. But in between, you know, COVID and everything, being on fire. This was before we had any vaccines. She was diagnosed in March 2020. So then I flew back in April 2020 and then spent the next like three or four or five months just working really hard, sleeping next to my laptop at night because I was just constantly trying to figure out what I was going to do? And I was like, you know, I could choose to take on a lab tech position or just a general lab position because I have those skills. But at the same time, that's not what I wanted to do anymore. So I was like “Well, we may as well jump sectors because everything else is on fire, my life is on fire.” So may as well do that. And I think for people now, if you're choosing to consider leaving, you have a lot more time to consider: Where do you want to go? How can you get there? What kind of people should you talk to to figure that out? Because when you're in grad school, you're just surrounded by mostly professors and other grad students. So how will you know if something that you want to do outside of grad school is worth it? Tina: That's a fantastic story you have and also traumatic. I'm curious, I want to go back a little bit because I'm curious, what decision did you take when you decided to start your graduate studies? What drove you to the beginning? Niba: Yeah, I mean, I had been researching all four years when I was an undergrad in Siobhan Brady's lab at UC Davis, and it was incredible. Like, I worked there every single summer full time. I was there, I think I ed for like three or four months, maybe like two months even after I started college. And it was a really ive, wholesome lab environment. And obviously researching when you are an undergraduate is very different from researching when you're a grad student. But I just didn't really have a sense of what academic culture was like more broadly speaking. And I thought I had, because I had spent four years, you know, researching. And in those four years I was doing kind of like: I love the experiments, I love the people, I loved the culture of the lab, which I later learned was not the norm. We had weekly picnics. People would go climbing together, our PIs would throw parties every time a paper got submitted. There was like a guaranteed party every single quarter where we would just go to her house and eat some food and hang out and, you know, just chill.  And then I realized that's not quite what every single lab does. And not everyone is best friends with their fellow grad students. And I think also I left behind a lot of my system when I chose to go from California to North Carolina. And in North Carolina, I just felt like I did not fit anywhere. I was struggling with some traumatic things that had happened, like my senior year of college, but at the same time I didn't know anybody and I just felt very weird being an Indian person when the majority group was white and then the majority group was black, and then the majority group was like international Latin people. And I just didn't fit into any of these things. I didn't know a single other American born Indian person. And our experience is very different from people who are international. And it came out in all these little ways, you know, people like questioning me when I wore a bindi, which was just something small. I don't mind answering it, but it just never happened to me when I was in California. One time I had a person like telling me to go scrub my skin. And that was just like a random person on the street. But I had never experienced anything like that in my life up until that moment. And that was really shocking. And I still think about it like years later, like I was so dumb.  I know that that has no bearing on who I am as a person or who anyone is as a person. It was just weird. And I there's this really weird moment where I drove across the States to get to grad school, and the day that I arrived in the town, there was a KKK rally happening in downtown Durham. And it was so bizarre. And I think the rally ended up not happening because there were a lot of people who showed up to counterprotest. But just the fact that that even was a possibility, just like scared me so much. This was 2017 when Trump had just won the election and everyone was like showing their Confederate flags everywhere. And I just felt so scared. I had never felt so scared because of my own color up until that moment. Even like post-9-11, I have like no memories of 9-11 whatsoever, but it was just really bizarre. And I think the lack of community was really weird and my lab in grad school was really great. Everyone like my PI was really ive and really understanding, but I was the only graduate student. Everyone else was a postdoc and married and did not hang out outside of the lab and it just kind of lent itself to a weird like “Oh, I didn't know that this is how certain labs were.” Everyone was really nice. But I think between like my project content continuously just failing as they always do and the environments being different. Yeah, it was just bizarre. Tina: Yeah, you didn't have a system. When I listen to you, you came to a new place, you didn't have any . This is just a very speculative question. If you had stayed in California and done your PhD there, you know, started your graduate studies there, do you think that would have made any difference? Niba: I think it would made a huge difference. But I also think, I don't know, I feel like I learned a lot going to another state. I learned a lot about myself and about a lot of issues. And I don't know what I would have chosen if I could go back in time. At the same time, I look back at this whole experience, I'm like, “Wow, I am so resilient and I worked so hard.” And even though now I'm not working as a scientist in the lab, it's still a really useful experience that helps inform every aspect of my life. And even if you choose to kind of divert entirely out of the science sector, the scientific method can be applied to absolutely anything, whether that's like training your dogs or working out or figuring out a nutrition plan. That's kind of the beauty of the scientific method, and I really like that about it, that you can apply it to absolutely anything and it can still be a useful thing. I think a lot of people are considering, you know, leaving, but then they consider all that time spent a waste and that's not quite true. Tina: Your point is something I'd like to strengthen, because that's something I hear often that I can't leave science, or you finish a PhD and you do a postdoc and then “Yeah, but I can't change career because everything I've done will be for waste.” And I would say “Oh, it's not so waste.” That's what you feel because you have learned a lot on the way. So what do you think this waste thing comes from, Niba? Niba: I think it's a bit like sunk cost fallacy and also just, you know, the kind of the people you're around. And there's also this sense of like if you're in your sixth year of your PhD, you may as well finish because it's just one more year. I think I left it like an opportune time because I was in my third year. So it was one more year than a Master's, but it wasn't like, you know, year seven or something. And I was like almost on the verge of being done. And, you know, for people who are on year six or seven, I think it's a really hard decision because you are so close. But I know people who've left in, you know, even like their fifth year or sixth year and like they don't regret it. I think it's really telling that everybody who leaves academia doesn't come back. That's a really interesting statistic. Tina: That counts for me too. I didn't come back. I don't want to go back either.  Niba: Yeah, no, I don't want to be treated so awful. I don't want to be told I'm dumb all the time. Like the moment I left, I had this weird, like, realization that like “Oh, wait, I'm actually really smart versus like the entire time I was in grad school”, I continually felt like the stupidest person in the room all the time. And I mean, a large part of it was just because I just felt so, like, stupid already. I had a really tough time reading papers and stuff. Reading papers was really difficult for me. And now that I'm out of grad school, I read like two books a week and they're usually like one of those is like a science book and one of them is (unclear). Tina: Yeah, you are a science communicator. That comes for me to Niba. I'm not a good writer at all, so I need a content writer. So if I start writing and I think it must be perfect, it must be grammatically perfect, then it's stuck. I don't get the words out of my brain, down in my hand. Niba: Perfectionism is hard. Tina: Exactly, it takes me back. But if I just blurb it out and send it to my content writer and she corrects it and says “it's fine Tina, it's fine”. Okay. It wasn't that bad. But then I get it back and I realize “Oh God, she has changed a lot.” But then I think it's more like a collaboration. It's not my job to be perfect, and then I can be creative in writing because I have someone that could do that job for me. And I have dyslexia as well. This creative mind having that can make it hard to write. So thank you for sharing that Niba. For those of you who listen here to what Niba says, it's not a failure to leave academia. If you don't like it, it's a choice you make and it's a decision. And there are successful careers beyond academia that you can start. Because if you think, iif you work in a company or in any other organization for two or three years and you decide to take another career step or a new journey, you would never look back and say it's a failure. You just say “it's a new career, a direction”, don't you? Niba: Yeah, you bring up a good point about the copywriter, though. I think in grad school you're so limited by your funds and like how many things you have to do that you don't have the ability to delegate portions of your life that allow you to live the life that you want to live. And it's so not fair. Like, if we were paid, if grad students were paid, postdocs, everyone in academia is paid commiserate with their experience. I think they would have a much better quality of life and much lower mental health problems. Some of the things I started doing when I left grad school. Like you mentioned, you have a copywriter. I work with an editor to almost help me kind of like refine my ideas whenever I have to do a really big grant proposal or submission for a big like fellowship or something like that.  And it's an extremely affordable thing and I think I probably could have afforded it in grad school, but like little things like that, getting help with. Her name is Andrea Davis. Her thing is called My Scholary Pursuits. I highly recommend checking her out for editing services. But on another note, you know, I also no longer do my own laundry. I pay $20 a week to get it all washed and sorted and folded and done for me. And it's a small expense now because it's only $20 a load. But in grad school that would have been $80 a month. I would have had to really think about that. And I don't know. I think all these little things, some people will say like “Oh, that's just really materialistic” and like “You should just do your own chores.” And I'm like “Should I? Should I?” Because I do a lot of things and my time is really valuable. And in grad school your time is even more valuable because you're forced to do all the stuff and you're supposed to do other things and you're supposed to just find time to rest and you're supposed to find time to do all your chores and shopping and balance like a very small budget. That's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. Tina: You're bringing up something here, you know, which I think is sort of a mindset you also can't get in academia, that we can do everything and we should do everything. So at least when I was an assistant professor, you write your articles, you do your writing, you're going to be a mentor, you're going to be a supervisor, you're going to do the teaching. You do basically everything. You don't buy services. When I'm coaching professors today, you know, they want to get these big grants and now we're talking about huge, big grants. I say “Don't do it on your own. Buy this service so you get an editor. You need on your application, you need someone to help you with your presentation. You need presentation skills. Those are skills you should buy.” And you know, they say, “What, should I really do that?” Yes, you should do that! Niba: Yeah. It halves your time and it also halves the amount of energy that you have to put in. You know, sometimes I will just write up like a really bad, terrible outline and it's just a bunch of clauses. I don't even bother putting it into paragraph format. It'll be like a couple of bullets here, a couple of bullets here, a couple of bullets here. And my editor will help me arrange things, make sure it flows, and then I start writing. And overall the process just takes up so much less time and less energy. It's way more efficient. I see the same kind of complaint with coaching services, and like productivity coaching or career coaching. People will question: why do I need this thing? And looking back at my kind of like giant career sector jump, I had the privilege of working with a Duke career counselor and she was so instrumental in helping me navigate academia. She was very persistent in making sure that I updated my LinkedIn. She looked over my resume, she looked over my connections and helped me find companies. And these are all things that I had a huge privilege and access to because the Duke provided these services for students for free. But, you know, in hindsight, looking at all the things she did for me, especially with like, you know, looking over my cover letters and looking over my resumes, she made such huge, huge changes. I'm like “Wow, that would have been a lot of money if I actually had to pay for it.” And luckily, it just so happened that Duke had really great services. But, you know, not every single place has that. And maybe you're just not in a location that has that. So, you know, coaching might be something to look into. Tina: You know, this is something that I'm fighting with as a career coach to convince PhDs that the money you paid me, you will get back in your first salary. Niba: Yeah, I think it's just so hard to tell when you've been, like, unfairly paid for the last seven years. Tina: And I say, you know, you have been unemployed now for four or five months. You know, that's expensive. So thank you. And I also would like to do some ment: Listen to Niba here, if you have a hard time writing your thesis and you need help to structure it, I know colleagues at Tress Academic, they help a lot of graduate students to finish up their thesis in a very efficient manner. So just please check their web page because they do a tremendous job. NibNinat's a stressful time. You might as well not do it alone. Tina: Don't do it alone, don't do it. The professors shouldn't do it alone, PhD students should not do it alone, ask for help and buy services to help you. Now, I'm coming into something here. Things you don't know you need. Things you need but you need but you don't learn it, if you put it that way. Niba: Yeah. I mean, oh God, LinkedIn is really one of the biggest ones. I had no idea how much the outside world used LinkedIn. Wow. It's just constant. And each sector uses it a bit differently. Since I'm in Science Communication, you'll find that my LinkedIn is extremely thorough and detailed. But one of the first things you should do if you are considering like leaving or even if you're graduating, you should definitely just keep your LinkedIn updated. Don't have like the basic cover image, don't have like a general photo of a person. Put your face on there, put a description of what you do, your skills, things like that. Connect with people. And number two is you really have to leverage connections. Every single person I talked to, I did a ton of informational interviews when I was kind of switching sectors because that's what my career counselor told me to do. So I was like “Okay, I don't know what I'm doing.” She was totally right. I did like an obscene number of informational interviews. I asked everyone of them, “How did you get your job?” And every one of them was like, “Well, I knew somebody who had worked here before”, or “I knew someone who worked here now”, or “I knew somebody who knew someone who worked here”. And out of all of those, like 160 or whatever interviews, only one person had applied to the job and gotten the job. And I was shocked. I was like, this is such a bizarre statistic. It seems kind of unfair in a lot of ways, but even academia is based on like, you know, your networking and who you know and things like that. And so I realized, you know, if I wanted to get a job, I shouldn't be applying for jobs, I should be networking with people. And that was a much smarter way of going about it. And I think that was really instrumental in my kind of foray into Science Communication. I chose to actually decline the first few jobs that were offered to me because they didn't seem like they were commiserate with my experience and they weren't in line with exactly what I wanted to do. And I was like, well, if I'm switching sectors to do something I want to do, I may as well do something I actually want to do. And so I realized freelancing might be a better move for that, because then I would get to work on very specific projects and it was actually amazing. I made my graduate student salary in three months, just in freelancing, and I was like “Wow, I should have started this way sooner.” I should have started this in grad school. Yeah. And the big thing is really just to talk to people, to leverage your LinkedIn. Every single job I applied to, I would like look up the company on LinkedIn and then I would search - do I know anyone or do I know anyone who knows somebody? And then send them an email asking: Can you connect me? Can you let me know? And I got so many jobs that way, so many connections that way. And you know, it's not just like using this for work, but a lot of times when I was asking people to let me know about their experience, it was helpful just to learn about the industry, to learn about the different positions that were there, learn about like marketing versus being, you know, someone who specifically works in sales, things like that. All these little tiny little differences you don't know about unless you've worked in the position or you've worked in the industry. And obviously coming from academia, you're not going to completely know what the industry is like. Tina: What you used here is what I usually call a hidden job strategy. It's just referral and networking and discovery calls. And that's the way to go. Because if you look at statistics, if you 100 people, you have ten interviews and you have one or two jobs. Niba: That's a much better statistic than most people get, just for the record. I have a friend of mine who's been unemployed since she graduated in 2018 and I keep telling her, you have to reach out to people. You have to reach out to people. She's submitted over like 600 job applications just within 2022 alone, and still has not gotten anything in the realms of like jobs that she actually wants to take. And I'm like “You have to talk to people. I don't know how else to tell you this. Like you've got to speak to a person, get them to talk to you.” Oftentimes you'll find that perhaps, you know, you talk to a person and they say, oh, this job is filled. But we actually have something coming up quite frequently. When I was freelancing, I would just talk to people and be like “Oh, you know, this is something I'm doing. Like, you know, let me know if anything comes up, if you have any work.” And they'd be like “Oh yeah, actually we have some work. We haven't put it on our website yet because no one's gotten around to writing the description, but if you want it, it's yours.” And I was like “Oh, okay.” And that happened like time and time again. Maybe like once a month. Tina: Yeah. And as a freelancer, all jobs, it's always about, you know, calling people. I can offer that. But most importantly, you ask “What do you need?”. Because if you start to ask “What do you need?” and “What kind of people are you looking for?”, “What do you think you're going to recruit?”, then you can add “Why do you like your job?”. And you learn a lot by doing that. And then you start a very interesting dialog and then people start to like you. Because I can tell you that what Niba is saying makes sense. You can work with recruiters in the same way because I when I worked as a recruiter (unclear). I them because they just have, you know, Tina, you know, they flattered me a little bit. You know the market, what's your stomach feeling? And, you know, they did that on a regular basis and they were very, very nice. And then suddenly one day I just had something and then boom, I had that candidate on my head. I give a ring and check. So it is this kind of building, you know, your social skills, you know, emotional IQ, I would put it. And your relationship building skills, because networking doesn't necessarily have to be relationship building, but that is what you are doing Niba, that is what I can hear between the lines. Yeah. Niba: Yeah. I think a lot of PhD students don't realize how many skills they have because there's this tendency to look at the job application and say, “Oh, I don't meet like 100% of these skills” or “Oh, I don't know if I have like seven years of project management experience”. Yeah, you do! You've been managing so many projects, are you kidding? And I don't know, a lot of people, especially women, especially women of color, especially immigrants, we have a tendency to see this list of requirements and say, “Oh, we probably don't fit”. I like never even bother to look at requirements. Like once I know I've fulfilled 50% of them now I'm like “Whatever I'm going to apply, see how it goes.” Recently, there was a job that I liked. Did not qualify for at all, and I was like “Let's just shoot my shot. I'm going to pitch myself, see what they say.” They actually ended up giving me an interview and telling me that they were really impressed and I'd given them an idea that was not entirely in line with their job and they were really impressed by that. There's nothing you have to lose if you apply to a place that doesn't, you know, you don't fit 100% of those things. And you have to , tons of people are doing that and you're in competition with them. You've got to have a bit more confidence. All these like, yeah, way too many people coming out of academia don't have confidence in themselves because for the past seven years they've just been giving amazing presentations about work that they've been pouring their heart and souls into. And then the moment after the presentation, like, seven professors raise their hand and they're like, actually, let's rip this apart real quick. It's just so bizarre. Tina: It's over-perfection, and you have been criticized so much. I just recently talked with headhunters and I said “What is an ideal candidate, an attractive candidate?”. They say, you know, if you have the basic skills, up to 75% basic skills, the rest is your ion, engagement and your willingness to learn in the new job. So if we have two candidates, that one is a perfect fit from the skills. And one 75%. They always take the one and promote the one, you know, being most interested, showing the most ion. And I think this is something that you listeners should take with you because this is what you say Niba, by doing these discovery calls, by talking with people, you show your engagement, you show your willingness, and that's much more important than being perfect. We are coming to an end of the podcast here and I would like, you know, as I always do. Three tips you would like to give your fellow graduates and PhDs, or you know, lecture professors listening to us here. Three tips. If you want to either quit your PhD, just leave or you finish, and you are looking for something beyond academia. What are your three tips to them? Niba: I would say the first one is something we kind of touched on is really don't try to do it alone. If you are, you know, in a place where you're surrounded by friends or a partner or something like that, just, you know, let them know “Hey, I'm going to be doing my dissertation” or “Hey, I'm going through a really tough decision right now. I'd love to get some , whether that is through, you know, maybe you can do the dishes a little more or maybe like I don't have to be in charge of groceries this week”. Kind of like laying out things that might be helpful for you. Maybe not everyone can read over your thesis because they don't have the expertise. But, you know, a friend might be able to, stop by and give, like, I don't know, some apples or something as a snack. And that helps a little bit with a little, you know, just a little bit of motivation and food and things like that. Really kind of like laying out the ways that people can help you makes it a lot more likely for them to help you. And it's not your responsibility to feel like a burden if you're asking for too much. If it is too much, the other person will tell you, it's their responsibility to say, you know, I don't have time for that or set up a boundary, if they don't have that. That will be my first one.  My second one is, we kind of talked a little bit about informational interviews and networking. But in academia, you know, the network kind of ends in a lot of academic circles. So in order to leverage the most out of the s you do have in a sector that you want to go into or perhaps the company that you want to go into, I would highly recommend ending each interview with, you know “Thank you so much for your time. This has been super insightful. Based on our conversation today, can you recommend three different people that I should reach out to? And would you be comfortable with me giving your name as a referral to these people?”. And more often than not they'll say yes, they might even offer to, you know, introduce you over email. And I would say that's a really great way of keeping the conversation going, especially if you're trying to break into a new sector or a new company, because how else are you going to make those connections? You know, like conventions and conferences are going to happen again soon, hopefully. But until then, you have an online way of meeting more people. And then my third tip would be, this is kind of like a nerdy way of looking at it. But if you think about kind of a graph of like, your x-axis time and your y-axis is work, and say your equation is Y equals five and you're doing a steady amount of work and you're not like growing higher and you're not dropping low, but you're doing a steady amount of work. There's this tendency to feel as though you're not doing enough and you're not growing and you're not pushing your career and stuff. That's absolute nonsense. Like you're still completing all the stuff you're currently doing, that is still growth. Because if you integrate all that area under the curve, you're growing all of that onto the experience that you've already had before. Just because you're not actively trying for a promotion or you're not applying for grants or whatever, doesn't magically mean that you are not doing enough. You're still maintaining all these things that you're doing. You're still doing all the istrative tasks of being an adult, which takes up so much time. I think there's this tendency to be stressed about something and then you add more stress by being stressed about the stress, and that doesn't serve anyone, that just doubles your stress for no reason. Maybe this is a very mathematical way of looking at both of these concepts, I'll it that. But I was journaling about this the other day, and when I thought of it that way, I like draw these graphs out and I was like “Wow, like I'm still accomplishing so much, even though I'm not, like, applying for this promotion or I'm not like throwing myself into a new initiative or whatever”.  It's still all that area still there. Why would I stress about something when it's just going to add onto the stress for no reason. Being stressed about it that you can't change. There's still going to be a problem, but at least you can stop beating yourself up about it because that's not going to really do anything. And at least if you reduce the stress, you might find yourself in a position of being able to have more energy, or being able to think of a solution for it, versus before. You can't do that as easily or as well because you're under so much pressure and stress. Tina: Thank you very much Niba for your tips. So this was Niba, NotesbyNiba.  Thank you very much for being a guest on the channel here. And this is Tina Persson, PhD Career Stories. So don't forget to follow us on Facebook. You'll find us there. You'll find us on Instagram and on YouTube. And we also have a very brand new web page. So don't forget to check that, because we have over 100 podcasts for you to be inspired. Have a great day! Niba: Thank you so much. Tina: Thank you very much. And thank you so much, Niba.