RYB 870: (The RISK of Losing It All Paid OFF) Engineer To Full Time Expert Copywriter with Daniel Throssell 603d5m

Today I’m fired up because I have another featured guest on the show today. When you start out in life, getting ready to graduate high school and decide what your next step will be it can be overwhelming. My guest, Daniel Throssell, is on the show today, as is well known in the copywriting space. He is really good at writing persuasive copy that allows people to take action and will be sharing some great tips to help you out.  How it All Started  I graduated from college and worked as an engineer for three years, and it was terrible. It had always been my pipe dream to start a business, but I always thought it was for other people but not for me. This was totally by chance that I wrote a sales pitch for a contest and I won. It was at that moment when I realized that I could make a change and explore a different career path. Before the contest, I had never even heard the word “copywriting” before. I came in with a fresh perspective, even though it was my first sales letter. I asked the question, “where is the person now, and how do I get them to where I want them to be?”  My Leap To Freelancing  I started on Upwork, and within a few months, I was making enough money that I felt I was ready to make the leap to quit my job. I was terrified and felt like I was throwing away something that I had worked my entire life for. Once I made the leap, it wasn’t like everything was smooth sailing from the start. There were several months that I felt like I had made a horrible mistake, and it took quite a while until I felt completely comfortable with my decision.  I started out taking any jobs that I could get. Most took several hours, and I was getting paid near next to nothing but was building my portfolio, so I was happy to do it. As I got better and was able to build my brand and reputation, I was able to start raising my prices and had clients approaching me directly. A year after I started copywriting, I started working with a bestselling author, and my career took off from there.  Email Is Very Much Alive  I’ve spent the last six months I’ve spent time focused on building my own brand and building out my own list. I’m coaching a few copywriters and creating courses teaching people how to write good copy for their own clients or business.  If email were dead, my family would have starved a long time ago. My own business now as well as the business I helped the author I worked with, were both driven entirely through email. It is definitely not dead, and in fact, it’s one of the only marketing elements that you can really control. If you aren’t implementing email marketing in your business, you need to get started because it’s well worth it.  How To Create an Effective Lead Magnet The biggest problem I see is that people focus on trying to appeal to everyone. Start with your ideal customers and think about what they want most. Think of one specific person that is your customer. What do they want and what are they struggling with? How can you give that specific person a quick win that will help make their life easier and benefit them somehow? You can create a simple checklist, videos, or mini-course, but it needs to be quick and solve a problem.  Just because you focus on one area to start with doesn’t mean that you can expand to talk about other topics related to your niche market. You just need one thing to get people to read your email and go from there.  Create an Eye-Catching Subject Line   Personally, I get on as may email lists as I can, and it gives me a perspective of how many emails people are getting every day. It also always me to see what other people are sharing with their lists so I can do it differently. The key is to make your emails stand out. A few types of subject lines I recommend to help with this include: News Style Headline: Great to announce a new product or exciting news Spark Curiosity: Ask a question that plays on the pain points of the market  Be Sensational: Get people excited  Add Contrast: Intrigue the reader to open the email  Use a List: Share helpful tips they can use today  How To: Provide a benefit and a tutorial on how to do something Controversial: Get people fired up and ready to click on the link Friendly-Approach: Write a subject line that you would send to a personal friend It’s important to use a blend of the above types of subject lines. The goal is to send the most interesting email in a person’s inbox, so they are more likely to look at it.  If you’re sending good emails in the long run, you’re going to have decent readability. You want to avoid writing boring emails, or it’ll show up as spam. I sent out emails every single day to my own list, and I don’t have any problems with spam because I reach out regularly and provide useful content. Focus on being interesting and helping people, and you’ll be good to go.  Identify Your End Goal  Start with the end in mind. If you’re building a blog, you want to tease the link in an email but not give it all away. Take time to think about what you want to achieve and how you’re going to make it happen. Share valuable information in your emails to keep them coming back for more. I recommend using a three-part structure in every email. Start the email with a short story or hook, talk about a lesson to be learned, and how your product or service could help someone facing the same problem. I use waitlists a lot as my product or serve. I want people to expect that I’m a business selling something while still sharing valuable content for free.  Final Note From Scott Another great interview in the books! I hope you were able to take some of the lessons that Daniel shared about copywriting and writing emails. Check out Daniel’s website to see what he is up to. I recommend getting on other people’s emails to get an idea of what they are writing for their customers and spark some ideas of content you could create for your own list. It’s time for you to take action and go rock your brand.  Take-Aways From Todays Episode How it All Started 5:49 My Leap To Freelancing 14:42 Email Is Very Much Alive 22:20 How To Create an Effective Lead Magnet 26:29 Create an Eye-Catching Subject Line 31:16 Identify Your End Goal 40:07 Quote:  I recommend using a three-part structure in every email. Start the email with a short story or hook, talk about a lesson to be learned, and how your product or service could help someone facing the same problem. Thanks For Tuning in! If you found today’s show to be valuable, please share it. Additionally, please consider taking a couple of minutes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes.They’re very beneficial when it comes to the show’s ranking. I can guarantee to read each one of them myself.Finally, don’t neglect to subscribe to the show on your preferred app. “, I’m here for you, I believe in you, and I’m rooting for you! Now it’s time for you to take action and go rock your brand”!  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AsAmf_gvhA Helpful Links: The Persuasive Page: https://persuasivepage.com/ Coffee Talk: http://brandcreators.com/coffee Playbook: http://brandcreatorsbook.com Convert Kit: https://brandcreators.com/convertkit Checklist: https://brandcreators.com/checklist 00:00 What I recommend is just think about your ideal person and what can I give them? That's a really quick win that they could have within five to 10 minutes. 00:11 Hey, Hey. Hey, what's up, everyone. Welcome to the rock, your brand podcast. I'm your host, Scott. Voeker a serial entrepreneur on a mission to help you. This show is designed to teach you to inspire you, to motivate you, to take massive action and build a future proof business. So whether you're just starting out or taking your existing business to the next level, this is your home. Now, if you're ready, I'm ready. Let's rock your brand. Hey guys. Welcome back to the rock, your brand podcast. This is episode 870 and today I'm pretty fired up because I've got another featured guest and what an incredible story, young guy, by the way. And, uh, but already has been through so much. And it's just kinda crazy that when you, when you start out in life, as far as like getting ready to graduate high school and then decide, what am I going to be for the rest of my life? 01:14 That's really, uh, that's really a hard thing to ask someone that is so young and hasn't really even tried many things as far as like what you want to do longterm. And today's a perfect example of that because Daniel [inaudible], who actually was introduced, I was actually introduced to him by Nick Loper from a side hustle nation. And, uh, he brought him over to me and said, Scott, you gotta, you gotta talk to this guy because number one, he's great at his craft, right? So I wasn't even getting him on to necessarily talk about his story. Although I always like to highlight and dig into someone's story because it's always, it's always important to see where they came from. And to also understand that it's not all, you know, all perfect. Right. But right now, I mean, he is well known in the copywriting space for some really large authors that he writes for. 02:09 Now, if you don't know what copywriting means, it's basically just a fancy way of saying he's good at writing persuasive copy that allows people to do things or take action. Uh, we use this in writing emails. We use this in writing sales copy. We do this in writing an ad on Facebook. We're a social media post. So the other cool thing that I was able to do, because why not, he came on the podcast is we kind of turned the second half of this into a little bit of a training session. And I dug into some email copy stuff as far as like subject lines or what you should write in your emails and all of that type of stuff that I've talked about here myself. But we go through some examples and it's really interesting to listen to her. His perspective we also talked about is email dead and, um, you're to hear his response to that. 03:00 And he kinda laughed a little bit when I said that, but, uh, he's doing a client work for a lot of really successful people. Uh, and he's going to shed some light on what's working right now. So you got that to look forward to as well, but really the story of him graduating high school, going to the university he's from Australia, uh, and then, uh, graduating from college and becoming an engineer and then finding out that a well, not really quite sure if I want to do this for the rest of my life. And then, and he's going to tell his story, but, and then something crazy happened by him throwing his name in the ring and, uh, and putting himself out there and he ended up, well, I'm not going to give it away, but he won this thing that changed his life forever. 03:49 So you're not gonna want to miss this interview with Daniel [inaudible]. And like I said, you're going to be inspired, motivated, but you're also going to learn through all of the things that he's done up to this point, but really a lot of that copywriting stuff when it comes to email writing and all of that stuff. So guys, I'm going to stop talking so you can enjoy this interview that I did with my new friend, Daniel throttle, enjoy. Hey, Daniel, welcome to the podcast, man. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day in a, in this early, is it, Oh, it's late night for you early morning for me, right? 04:22 Yeah. It's a, it's 9:00 PM in Western Australia. 04:27 Yeah. 9:00 PM and little kids. 04:30 Yeah, that doesn't sound like does it, but like, to me as a father of young kids is like normally a bed now. 04:39 Yeah. Yeah. Well, Hey, I been there done that and uh, I, I get it, man. It's a, it's it's not easy. It's a, it's actually a job in itself. That's why I give a stay at home moms, a lot of credit. Cause they're there all day without that break, you know? So, um, so cool. So I appreciate you coming on. Um, I actually, uh, was introduced to you from, uh, Nick Loper, uh, which, uh, he, he gave me the intro to you and, um, and he said, you know, you really gotta check him out, you know, Daniel, because, uh, you know, he's really, really good at this email, uh, this email stuff. And I said, well, I love email, so let's get them on. And so you and I had a little bit of conversation back and forth, and here you are. So what I want to do today, though, before we, before we dive into really teaching a little bit around the email marketing side and all of that, I want to know a little bit about you like Daniel, like you graduated high school. What were you, you know, what were, what were, where were you heading? What was your dream? What were you going to be when you grew up? Right? 05:36 Yeah. So it's very shockingly. It wasn't anything to do with email marketing or copywriting, which we just want. I am now, right? I I'm an email copywriter basically. And when I graduated high school, I thought I was going to be an engineer. I actually studied engineering at university for five years. Graduated work as an engineer for three years. Um, and I hated it. Absolutely hated it. It was so boring. I had to actually work on this remote Island. I had to fly in, fly out a month at a time. Do these 12 hour shifts for 28 days in a row from 5:00 AM to 5:00 PM. It was terrible. Wow. Um, so copywriting was like email marketing was never a thing of mine. And it was actually, it was totally by chance that I actually entered this contest one day from, from our meat safety email marketer. 06:32 And he had this copywriting contest. I didn't even know what that word was, but I saw it and I was like, well, I like roommates. So I want to try it. Hey, write this sales letter. It was just terrible thing. Um, but it won the contest. And that was just like the moment, you know, you just there's moments like that, where it's like, maybe I could make a change in my life. You know, no one had ever laid out a path differently other than go to school study, get good grades, get that job. And suddenly those, this thing, like there's like this door was kind of opening to me. And, uh, I, I sort of wanted to explore that a little bit further. 07:09 So let's back up a little bit. So you're, you're flying in and out of this, to this remote Island, you you're following a Remi, which, um, I'm assuming it's probably around. Cause he, I mean, back in the day, it was always about like how not just to invest, but like how to save money, how to, how to hold onto your money. Like all of that type of stuff. Where was this contest introduced? Like, walk me through that real quick, because that's a pivotal moment for you that it's kinda like, wait a minute, you did this thing. If you never did that thing, I actually wrote a book called to take action effect. And it's all about these moments that we take that change the direct trajectory of our life. That's one of them for you, right? I mean, you never write that, you know, who knows where you'd be. Right. So walk me through that. What made you go, Oh, you know what I'm going to and what was it, what was the content? 07:57 Right. So he was back when he was just starting to sort of get into the start of business thing. And, um, as, as someone who was not really loving my job, I was thinking like, is this really what I have to do? Do I have to keep doing this, like this job that I don't enjoy flying away here? I mean, the money was good, but the job was terrible. And so he was talking about starting your own business. And it had just always been this pipe dream thing. I was like, I always in my head thought, it's something other people do. I don't know how to do it. I don't know how to start a business, but he was writing about that. And he was actually launching this new course about copywriting and started to promote it. He had this contest where if you wrote copy, um, you would, uh, to promote his course, that was your entry. And he was going to pick the best one and he was going to call them, uh, talk about copywriting. And I was just like, well, what have I got to lose you? It just might as well have a go. And it's totally, like you said it, if I hadn't done that, I would still probably be sitting at a desk somewhere. Well, I wouldn't be now. We'd all be locked down. I probably have lost my job. 09:08 So it was definitely a defining moment. 09:13 And I mean, that's brilliant on roommate's part too. I mean, he's having people write his sales page for him basically for free. And then he gets to pick the best one and maybe even tweak it or work with that copywriter. So that's pretty brilliant on his part. Um, so how long was the sales letter and what kind of experience did you have with writing? Right. Like at that point 09:33 I did not even know what, you know, like copywriting now I understand what it is, but I had never heard the word copy in that context before I thought it just meant like copy and paste. So the answer is almost no experience with writing other than writing emails and stuff as an engineer, like there was no experience with sales writing or anything. It was completely cold. Um, so that, that letter, it was some terrible little sales letter Coda, uh, how I got my wife to let me spend $200 on one ebook. And it was talking about how I bought one of roommate's products a few months before that. And so I made my sales letter about that. I didn't know anything about sales letters. I had nothing. And the funny thing was there were all these actual copywriters who went in and they, they tried all their copywriting tactics. They were like two X, five X, 10 X is times your business by getting roommates new course. And it was just all the formula and stuff. And I beat those guys because I didn't know that. So I came in with this fresh perspective, not knowing how to do it and Rameet loved it. He said it was better than most professional copywriters he'd seen at the time. That was my first one. So that was crazy. 10:46 That is crazy. So you went into writing that sales letter with, without any, any copy formulas, right? There's like you didn't have this like seven steps that have to be on a sales page and you're like, you know, you're not even really knowing what those are. 10:59 How did you, how did you come up with writing it? Like, I mean, like, how did you 11:04 Walk through, like if I sat down at that point in time, I'm like, I don't even know 11:07 How to write this thing. 11:09 Can you put that down on paper? Just telling your story. 11:12 Yeah. The funny thing is it's something maybe that I did by accident that first time that I would, uh, several years later now as a more experienced person saying it's probably the right way to do it is not to use, rely too hard on the formula or anything. It's just to think about where is the person reading this? What are they thinking right now? And what do I want them to be thinking by the end of this? And which is the essence of any, not even sales writing, just any writing that you want to make someone do something. And it can be, you know, sending an email to someone asking my name to a party, whatever you're just thinking about where are they and what do I need to say to get them to where I want them to be? And I really just did it with that in mind. I wrote to, I pictured my friends who own small businesses, and I thought, what will be interesting to them about this? And I thought, well, I'll tell a little story, cause that'll be interesting. Cause they're my friends. And then I'll talk about how that happened for me and how it could happen for them. And to me, that was just, I just thought that was a natural way to do it. And it turned out to work. Okay. I mean, looking back on it, I could have done better, but you know, it worked out all right. Speaker 3: 12:22 Great. So, okay. So now you, you get the, a, you get the, you know, the w you get the win, right. And, and so what happens from there? You know, like, okay, you get this win, but what does that actually look like? 12:36 So what happened was it took several weeks for him to announce the winner. And I sitting there, I was, I was at work, you know, and I was meant to be out on site, go out to the gas plant and inspect some cables, you know, and I was late for an inspection, but because he had this webinar where he was going to announce it, and I'm sitting there at my desk, like ready to run out and I could just want to get phone press then. And he gets to like, and he's describing the copy. And he says, and the winner was Daniel Trussell. And I have to throw my hands up my mouth. So I'm not screaming in the middle of the aisle, just like, Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Because it was like a very star set, a moment for me. Um, yeah, it was just like ran out to the field. 13:15 Look at those cables. Didn't even know what I was doing. I was just doing happy. Um, probably a safety hazard. And then basically I got to, I had a chat to him on the phone that was, that was sort of the deal. He sent me his favorite three copywriting books and we got to talk and I just said to him, uh he's like, okay, cool. So let's talk copy. And I'm like, yeah, I don't actually know what copy is. That was the first one ever. He's like, are you serious? I said, yeah, what should I do if I actually want to do more of this? And he was like, he was not expecting to, you know, this conversation to be at such a basic level, but he's like, okay, we'll have to take a step back any, he gave me some advice. He was like, you know, you should start building a portfolio that reaching out to people and connecting. 14:01 Um, and here's some books that I would read. And so I did pretty much everything he said, and I actually ended up going on Upwork, which, you know, everyone everyone's really down on a book, but I went on there and I started pitching for jobs there and I started winning them. And so within a few months, I'd actually, um, had enough work there that I said to my wife. I was like, I think I want to do this. Like, can I quit my job? And it was a really scary moment. Um, but she was, she was willing to me. And so I ended up quitting my job freelancing there and, um, picked it up from there basically. Wow. Speaker 3: 14:40 So that moment there, that's a tough one. I've been at that, at that spot where you had a job and, uh, and from there you're going to make that leap. Um, what I always kind of, I like to dig into this part of that, like in your mind, it's scary as heck. Right? You got the of your wife. That's cool. That helps. Right. But was there a safety net of any kind there that you could fall back on? Or did you know what I mean? Like what was, what was there that was allowing you to take that leap and, you know, say if this thing doesn't work, I can always blank. You know what I mean? Like, and for me, I've always had like construction in my background. I could always go out and be a general contractor, like whatever, right. Like photographer, we were that one. So there's like other things that I could follow. What was yours? What was something that you had that was kind of a safety net or didn't you have one? 15:32 Well, you know, I, I always felt, I'm sure I'll be able to get back in here. They, they were, I worked for Chevron and they were really keen on me. They were really keen on me. They, they actually are. We're laying off a bunch of staff at the time I left and, um, I volunteered to be laid off and they refused. They said, we don't want to let you go. So I, I, you know, being laid off was a much more generous deal than quitting, obviously. So they forced me to quit. They like, they're not going to lay you off. So I had this sort of feeling like, I reckon I might be able to get my job back, but at the same time, there was this part of me that was like, I don't, I don't ever want to go back. There was, there was just something in me that felt, I will find another way to do this. 16:18 And I'd never viewed myself as that. Don't get me wrong. Like, there are people who are like entrepreneurs and they'll go stop if they in businesses. And that wasn't me. I was terrified. I was like, I'm throwing away the thing that I've worked my whole life for. And everyone told me, I show it. And, you know, friends and family were like that, like, Oh yeah, we you. But I was like, cause doubt in their voice. Like w what are you doing? Um, so it was really scary. Um, but I did feel that if I, if I really put my mind to it, we'd be all right. So somehow I don't know if I ever plan on coming back. Speaker 3: 16:54 Mm. Yeah. I don't think, I don't think he ever do, but there's always like that. But what if it doesn't work? You know? I mean, I made that decision. Once I left my, I actually had my father's business that I thought I was gonna own one day and ended up after eight years, finding out that wasn't going to be the case. Cause there was a bad partnership. And then I was like, okay, now what? Right. Like I devoted all this time and energy into building this business and thinking I was gonna own it one day and then finding out that, that wasn't going to be it. But I saying to myself, when I made that first time, I said, I will never, ever punch a clock again. I'll never work for someone else again. And that's been 18 years. So I haven't had to go back to my safety net. So we're good. There's a lot of different ways out there to, to, to bring in money. You know what I mean? So, uh, anyway, I appreciate you sharing that. That's, uh, that's very helpful. Cause a lot of people think, okay, if they looked at you today, they'd be like, Oh, it's successful work with a lot of successful people, help them launch products, help them sales copy. 17:50 Um, and there's, there's not like that part of that journey. A lot of people, they kind of gloss over that. And I like to dig into that because I think it's important that you have those same fears that we all have when you're making that leap. And you know, if someone's listening right now and they're at that point, understand, it's there for a reason to right. It's there to say, Hey, this is scary. Right. But it's probably something you need to do. You probably got to listen to that and, and kind of push through it. So I appreciate you doing that. 18:17 The other thing is that once, once you make that leap, well, at least for me, it's not like suddenly it was all smooth sailing from there. There was still, you know, three, five, six months after I quit. I sitting there feeling sick. Like I've made a huge mistake. There's no clients this month. Um, I've, I've screwed it all up. What am I going to do? Uh, and you know, w it worked out eventually, but it's not, it's not like if I had judged, you know, at that moment in time, I would have said, I've failed at this. And that wasn't the case. So it wasn't like you quit. And then suddenly everything's all rosy still. Um, I think that's really important to note too, because, you know, there's, they can seem like people, you know, they're just succeeding all the time and it's definitely not true. There are others, 19:04 There's, there's rough patches. Or as, you know, a lot of people refer to them as seasons. Right. You have these, these different seasons in life and as you evolve, right. It's like your, your journey will evolve. Like your journey probably started in the copywriting at a certain, you know, like being, like you said on Upwork. And then it's like, okay, but where did it pivot? Where did it change through that, through that journey. So kind of take us through that. So you started doing freelance work where you're, you're kind of like you're hired for a job. What kind of jobs were they by the way? Were they, were they specific to like launches or were they for, you know, like what kind of, I was just writing an ebook. 19:41 I don't want to sell the dream. Like, there's a lot of people who sell this dream, like, especially in the whole copywriting marketing space, it's like become a copywriter. And in two months you'll be making 10 grand a month. Like it was helped me name my new website for 50 bucks, or write me this whole sales page for my course, for a hundred bucks, you know, stuff that takes several hours to do, you know, you're working for peanuts, I'm just trying to get the reputation and experience. So originally it was whatever you could get. Basically, the first step of job I did was writing ads for beard oils, as you can see, I don't really split much of a bit. I know I've never been able to, so it was really ironic, but so it was basically whatever, whatever I could get, um, as I got better and was able to build my own sort of brand there and reputation on Upwork at least for the first year. 20:37 Cause that's where I worked for the first year. Um, I did build sort of a, a brand and reputation there as someone who was really good and was able to start raising my rates and started coming to me. Uh, and, and that was sort of a pivot point where I stopped pitching for work. And people started coming in and inviting and saying, Hey, Daniel, can you work on this job? Um, which sort of culminated, um, eventually I was approached by, he wasn't at the time he would be the next month. Uh, Australia's bestselling author right now ed me. Yeah. He ed me to launch the book that it's now the second bestselling book in Australian history. Wow. Um, but he approached me to help write the launch funnel for that. And that was about a year into my copywriting journey. Um, so there have been a lot of buildup until then. Um, and then things really took off after I started working with him. Speaker 3: 21:28 Yeah. I was going to say, so you kind of start getting these, um, these names that you can add to your portfolio that I'm sure help. And then they also, you know, do introductions because now they have a network of people and they're like, Hey, what did you use? Right. You know, you're copying, they're like, Oh, Daniel. And you're like, Oh, cool. Give me his number. It's almost like old fashioned word of mouth. Right. It's like, um, it's kind of how it can work online as well. Not just like in person. So, um, that's cool. So, okay. So take us, take us to where we are like right now. Like, what is your main, what is your main thing that you focus on right now? Um, because, you know, obviously you've, you've grown since you were doing Upwork, right. And freelance stuff. Where, where are you now and where do you spend most of your time? And then what I want to do is I want to lead into giving people some copywriting stuff that they can do with you now. 22:18 Yeah, absolutely. So funnily enough, that author I mentioned with you was, was the, the biggest project I had. And he basically became sort of my main client and I had other clients along the way, and that lasted for about four years. And we just wrap that project up, um, a month ago. Uh, and so in parallel over the last, uh, six months, I started to build my own brand, which, which I hadn't really, because I'd spent so long building his, you know, which was great for him. You know, it's like a super famous in Australia and I don't take all the credit for that, but, um, I hadn't done anything for myself. So over the last six months, I still would have been, um, working on my own company, the persuasive page, which has been not only promoting my own copywriting services, cause I still work as a freelance copywriter, but also moving into sort of teaching other people, the art of doing of how to do email and sales pages and do, um, copywriting and marketing online. 23:19 And so I've sort of been building my own list and something, I know you're really big on building my own list, mailing it regularly and building trust with it. And the majority of those people are either most of them are copywriters or they're business owners who are writing their own copy and I'm showing them basically how to, how to do it. Uh, and so at the moment, I'm coaching a few copywriters and working on a few, a few courses, how to systems for actually writing, writing new copy. So that's where I'm at right now. Really. Speaker 3: 23:51 Gotcha. So, uh, okay. So with that, all being said, let me ask you this. Before we even jump into the email side of things, um, is email dead. I get that question a lot. Scott is email dead, no one reads email anymore. 24:09 Wow. Oh my. If, uh, if email were dead, my family would've stabbed a long time ago because that has been the majority of what I've done for the last four years and that, you know, my business now, as well as the, the author I've been working with, he basically had a backend product, which was an info publishing business. And it was driven entirely by email. You know, we marketed through through email every week, we deliver that content through email. We did sales by email. Email is so not debt. Um, it's and it, I would argue that anything else is emails. The only thing that you can really control. Um, if, if Facebook, I was, I was listening to a couple of your, um, Hellcats and I still, one of your recent guests had mentioned he got slapped with a Facebook ad ban on one of his counts. Um, yeah. And so like, I'm not saying email is immune from that, but with email, you at least keep the list. Uh, and so I w I would argue personally, you're crazy. If you don't have email in your system, it's like, it's the one you can control more than anything else. So why wouldn't you use it? Speaker 3: 25:15 Yeah, no, absolutely. I was, I was obviously saying that with, I knew the answer that you were say, cause you and I are on the same page there. Um, but I mean, Hey, if people want to think it's dead, that's fine. I'm still gonna use it. And, uh, and we use it in, in any brands, 25:29 My competition, one of the thing it's dead. I'm happy for them to write better for me. Speaker 3: 25:35 Yeah. I mean, there's, there's less competition then, right. Like less, less email in the inbox. Um, okay. So let's, let's kind of get into it then let's, let's get into some, some tactics and strategies when it does come to email. Um, I think the biggest thing when starting, and I want to hear your thoughts on this when, when building their email list, right. Is not just putting up a, you know, a form on your page that says sign up to my newsletter, right? Like I think it needs to be more of a lead magnet that brings people in that you want to genuinely like speak to and they want to, they want to hear from you, right? Like they want to hear what that advice. So let's speak to how important is it. And also give us some, give us some, uh, I guess, different ways that we could do that without making it very complicated. 26:26 Right? So I'm, I'm almost a hundred percent in line with what you just said. Um, which is, I mean, the way that I normally put it to a business owner, cause you know, the people you want to talk to in your emails is to be blow, going to buy your stuff. If I'm talking to a business owner generally. So I'd say, start with your ideal customers, your ideal buyers in mind, what are they, what are those people want most? And it helps if you've got real people right now who you talk to, who are on your list, who buy from you think of one person, not, not just a whole group of them. Think of one of them, you know, Dave, and what does Dave really want? What is he struggling with? What does he want most from you that you can help him with? 27:08 And you've got to think about how could I give Dave a really quick win? The hink would have in five to 10 minutes of ing my email list and I give him some, some Optim magnet or bonus, and it has to be really quick. It can't be a two week course that you give away for free because that's amazing, but no one's going to finish it. It's gotta be something that Dave is gonna decide. He's gonna put his email in full. He's going to get that. He's going to read it in five minutes and he's going to say, wow, that was really cool. I want to know more. 27:43 And there are so many ways to do that. Like you have like checklists and videos and mini courses and whatever. It's just gotta be quick to implement. And it's got to solve a problem that your ideal buyer has. And I think a mistake, a lot of people make, if they're trying to appeal to many people, you know, they're trying to attract people who aren't going to be a good fit for what they sell. That's why you have to start with the ideal person in mind. Right. And on my website, I don't even offer an opt in magnet, which you might say like, that's, that's crazy. You're contradicting your advice. But because I won't copy writers who are interested in copy. So I say, what you're getting is the emails. And so if you're not interested in that, don't opt in and to some people that's a really radical approach, but I'm saying it's perfectly in line with that philosophy because I've thought about who are the people I want and what's going to be appealing to them. So I do tease actually my welcome emails, kind of fun and really unique. And I do tease that a little bit, but there's no opt-in magnet traditionally. So what I recommend is just think about your ideal person and what can I give them? That's a really quick win that they could have within five to 10 minutes. Speaker 3: 28:54 Yeah. I love that. And you're, you're a hundred percent, right. When you say that, because a lot of people think they have to give them like the ultimate, like video series. It's like, no, we have to give them one simple thing. Like if I'm, if I'm, uh, I always, I always joke that I talk 29:08 To the, uh, the bass fishing market. Yeah. Speaker 3: 29:10 Right. Like if I'm talking to the bass fishing market, I'm not going to give them like every single way in different things that they can do to catch more bass where the best equipment, and everything's going to be in this manual, this guide, it's going to be like five tips to catch more bass. Right. Like something like they can read it and be like, I'm going to go try it. Right. And if it works great. And if it doesn't, well, I didn't lose anything. I just, it didn't work for me, but hopefully it will. Right. So that's kind of what I'm seeing is like, once we do that, then we know where they're at, but also we can then lead them down that path, that on, because now we know that they're trying to catch more bass. Right. So now we just have to keep showing them and helping them with this. But also knowing that there's other things to just catching bass, there's like the equipment. And there's like, you know, the experience and you know, maybe it's quality time with your dad. Like any of this stuff, we know that. So that's where we can start to kind of bring that into the conversation. Um, is there anything else I'm missing there that you would add to that 30:07 Actually, no mean, I think you hit on a really important point, which is that just because you focused on one area to start with it doesn't mean you can't talk about more. Um, and so that the mistake a lot of people make is they think I have my market. If we take bass fishing, my market is interested in fishing rods and in where's the best place at the fish and in how to cost align. And, well, sorry, I didn't finish. I didn't know if these are real, but give me let's. Let's see. Yeah. So you're like on my, um, my guide is going to cover all those things, but you don't, you just say here's the five best bass fishing spots in X town or something like that. Yup. Yup. And you don't just have to talk about that from then on it's just, people need one thing to get in. Speaker 3: 30:52 Yep. No, I love that. Okay. So let's, let's move into this. Cause this part here is like, uh, I think really important is we're sending an email, but how do we get them to actually notice it and actually want to open it? So let's talk about some tips on like good subject lines. And I guess what makes a good subject line, I guess would be the question. 31:13 Yeah. Well this, this is old copywriting saying that, um, your, your headline, like in the newspaper ad, it was kind of 80% of your advertising span because 80% of people would only read the headlines. So you've spent 80 cents out of your dollar when you run that ad, an email is kind of the evolution of that really. So it's basically where you have to stand out. And one thing I do as a copywriter, I don't recommend everyone does it because it will drive you nuts is I get on as many email lists as I can cause it's my job to know what's working. Um, and that gives me this perspective. I wake up every day and my whole Gmail screen is this slew of white unread new messages. And it gives you a perspective of, this is how many messages people are being bombarded by. Cause when you send an email and you sit there and you're like, this is the best thing ever. 32:06 And you don't think it's one in a hundred on this screen. So you have to be, um, you have to really put your a game into it. So what, what I do, like there are probably seven or eight different ways, which I think are really easy, um, to try to try for headlines that you can sort of vary it if you're happy for me to get kind of tactical here. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So, I mean, let's, let's take best fishing. Well, let's, let's take fishing cause you're joking about fishing. Um, let's run through some, you could do it. So I think one of the biggest ones and you can't always do it for obvious reasons, but it's news. Okay. So number one is doing news style headline. So it's like announcing or introducing, cause you've got something new to tell them, people love new stuff. 32:55 So announcing new type of fishing rod or something, we're selling new kind of fishing rod. So that's, that's, that's one way you could do it. I like that second one is you can mix and match these by the way. And I always would, it is to use curiosity. So like, um, is this the world's best fishing spot? Something like that. It's like, uh, well I want to know what that is and you always want to sort of play on play on the, um, the pains and sort of interests at the market. So is this a little best fishing spot? If you're talking to a fishing market, you don't say, um, it's just the world's fastest car because that is not, that's not relevant to the market. Right. Um, a third principle I'd use is to be sensational and a lot of people cringe for that and they're like, Oh, I don't really want to do that. 33:44 But people like being excited, everyone else is sending boring emails. So if you have something like amazing two second trick for doubling your cat, uh that's like, Whoa, that's really cool. It's better than saying, um, how to catch more fish. You know, even though that'd be the same thing. So third you want to sensationalize a little bit, I would say also you want to add some contrast in everything. So if you can say Bish preparation, secrets of a Swan vegetarian, it's like, there's this contrast there between vegetarian and fish or, you know, um, line casting secrets of a, of a paraplegic or some, something like that. It's like your brains. Like how can that work? So throwing some contrast in your subject lines is a really good way to do it. Um, a really good go to is to use a list, uh, seven ways to bait your hook, you know, do you actually sure. Is it a joke? 34:41 No, I, I do very little, very little. Um, and uh, I would not, I would not classify myself as even a novice. Right. I'm still a beginner I've I've fished for, you know, like when I was a kid and stuff, but like for sunfish or bluegill or with a bobber and a worm. Right. Um, but I do have a pond right here and, uh, there is bad, there are bass in that pond and I do have some lures that I play around with, but no, I'm not, I'm not 35:06 Bass fishermen. Okay. Okay. Well, I'm just, I'm wondering if I'm totally off base here cause I'm just looking at you. Like I'm making these up. I didn't know. 35:15 It's an email saying we're way off, but that's cool. 35:21 Just a couple more. I use how twos a lot is really. People love that. There's some of my most popular subject lines, how to do something, how to catch your first fish in under 60 minutes, you know, that's, um, it's got a benefit in there and a how to people that stuff, um, you can be controversial why I've decided fishing is immoral. Uh, and if you can, if you can, if you're a real ionate Fisher and you get something in your inbox, it just says why I've decided fishing or why I think fishing should be outlawed. You are, your blood temperature goes up. You just have to click that to see what it is. Right. Um, and finally sort of a different approach that you can take if it works for your brand. And I've seen some people do it, I try it myself. Sometimes it's this sort of approach, emails more as kind of how a friend would write a subject line. 36:14 And that would be something like your subject line would be, it's been a long day of fishing and I'm so beat it. It's not, it breaks all those rules that we just talked about. There's nothing it's terrible, technically as a subject line, but it sounds like a friend now, some brands can't get away with that sort of thing. It sounds really off, but if you have a really personal brand, it can look like, Oh, that's just as my friend. Um, it's just my friend, Jeff, and he's just sending me these emails again. I love him. He's so funny. So I mix and match a lot of, a lot of those principles. Um, and I try and mix as many as I can each time just, you know, blends, curiosity and news and benefits. And so on. My goal is to try and be the most interesting thing in the inbox. I mean, probably rarely ever hit that, but that's the goal. 37:04 So let me ask you this then, because we're not going to really get into the tech tech side of things, but like deliverability, like, so if you use certain characters, if you use a certain word you could get now flagged as spam and the Gmail or Yahoo or whatever, right. Is there anything that you won't do in a subject line because it could do that or do you just say, you know, what if it does it does 37:27 Well. Uh, so my, my approach is more that if you are over the longterm, sending people good emails that they like to read, uh, you are not going to have those problems in general. And a lot of people, um, cut, cut their nose off to spite their face, to try and get good deliverability, they're boring. Um, or they don't do anything fun and people don't want to read it. And you have to , the deliverability is going to hit you by a few percent. Maybe if you do something wrong in an email, but people thinking, people reading an email of yours and deciding this guy's boring, that's going to kill your results by a lot more than a few percent. So I, and I actually, ironically, I email my list every single day. I have never had a single spam complaint because I them so much. 38:16 I run it flee the fact that I do it so much is they don't forget who I am. They get to know me. They don't think it's spam. If I hit them up once every two months, they'd probably be like, who the heck is this guy? And I get more complaints. So it's a sort of paradoxical approach there. And there's not a lot of people will say that. They'll, they'll say, you know, I believed this character. Don't use emojis, don't use Della science, I've done all those things. Um, and it doesn't hurt me too much. So I think if you focus on being interesting and helpful to people over the long term that will pay off. Speaker 3: 38:47 Hmm. So, okay. Let's, let's move into the actual email itself because now we've, we've come up with a really good subject line that gets the open. And now is it your job to give them the information in the email or to somewhat elude to it, giving them a little bit of like an overview of what it is, but then you're going to get them to click. Cause I mean, ultimately we want them to click somewhere. Um, so how does that look? Um, I, it was funny. I did one recently and I had said something like, you know, three, you know, three ways to do X or something like that. And I didn't just put a list in there of the three ways I talked about how important they were. And I talked about, you know, that you're probably doing this right now. And then I just said, you know, um, to watch the video where I shared this, you know, click here or something like that. And I had someone say, they emailed back. They go, why couldn't you just give me the three tips like in the email would have saved me from going to, from watching the video, but we all know that that's part of it. Right? We have to create that curiosity, give them some of that information in the email, but not all of it. So they want to go and click over unless the email is, is the PDF in a sense that it's just inside of a, of an email. So what's your rule usually there? 40:06 Well, what you just said at the end, that is a really big factor for it because it's, it's, it's about starting with the end in mind. If you are building a blog for example, and you need to build traffic to it, then you are obviously going to want to tease the link, but not give it all away. Right? Um, for me, my strategy and this is you have to sit down and think about this. You can't just be haphazard is what do I actually want to achieve? I actually don't want to build a blog. I want my interaction to happen in the inbox. And that's a conscious choice I've made for my brand, that I want them to interact with me in the inbox because the trade off you will face is more than half of people won't click a link, no matter what it is, even if it's the greatest link, you will just have people who are not interested. 40:51 Um, so you have, and that may be fine with you. That may be perfectly fine with you. You say I want the interest in people. That's totally cool. Um, but you always have to that more people are going to look at it if it's in the email. So I am personally a fan of trying to create content that is designed to be consumed in the email. Now I know that, you know, for a business like yours, maybe you have videos and stuff. You're driving people to, you have to drive them. So you do want to do a bit of teas. So what you just described to me is exactly how I would have done it, but in general, I think creating email specific stuff, um, and, and having the email sort of do its work and then drive people to a link or something is, is better than withholding stuff for the teas. Because the downside, if, if you do that too much, is that people just end up thinking, well, he's just going to push me to another link and I don't have time for that. I don't have time for a link. Whereas if they know that they're going to get the goodies in the email, they're more inclined though. So it's a balance depending on your friends, 41:56 It is a balance. I, I, I agree with you in, it's funny, I've done that both ways too. Like the same thing that you're saying, like, uh, let's say for example, I'm doing an promotion for like, we recently did a Pinterest traffic workshop and that we were promoting. And so I just, I did it both ways. I said, okay, here's a little bit about what we're going to teach. Here's the link to go view basically the sales page. And then I said, you know what, another email I'm going to send out. It's going to basically be the same copy that's on the sales page, just in an email form. Right. And I don't know if it was, if it worked out better for me or not. I just do know that when I see the click, I see that that person is definitely more engaged there. 42:35 They're letting me know they're more interested in that topic, right? Because if I'm sending something out on email, if I'm sending something out on Pinterest traffic or a Google traffic or whatever, and someone clicks it, it allows me to see the click that someone is actually more interested than someone that's just consuming it, reading it. So that's one of the reasons why I like doing it that way, but I totally agree if you want people to see the thing on the other side, just give it to them in the email. If that's what you're after in your case, you're not really looking to build con or content out and have it be indexed by Google where people can search for copywriting articles. Let's say maybe you are, but that's not your main strategy. Yours is to build a list and let them know my, my emails are my blog posts. The only way you're going to get these things to be on my list. Right. 43:18 That's, that's exactly it. Um, yeah, totally. Right. 43:23 Yeah. And I think that's, I think that's great. It's again, you have to pick what's right for you. And I think, you know, to, to your point, um, not at, not every business is going to be the same, so just, you know, figure out which one it is for you. But, um, so for you in, in your emails, are there any links ever in the emails? 43:41 Yeah, to be clear. Um, I, I have a link and I sell something in every single email. Uh, however, what, what, what I was talking about before is kind of linking to more content. I very rarely do that. Um, but I, I want the email to sort of be a sales pitch and it, it might be a good segue. Yeah. Because, um, what I was going to suggest, like, if you are trying to do this, if you're trying to sell something in, cause I do it all the time, really simple way to do it is start off with either a story hook or lead something interesting. Then you pivot it to sort of a lesson, how you can apply it. And then you turn the lesson into a bit of a sale. So I use that three part structure, something interesting, something to teach and then something to sell in email. 44:31 What I normally pitch at the moment is a waitlist to one of my products or my services. Um, and the reason I do that is for the same reason, like when you get a cata the mail from your local grocery store saying, these are the specials this week, you don't pick it up and go, I'm so disappointed in you. You scammy sellers. You're always trying to sell me. It's like, that's normal. That's what a business does. I want that. I want to build that. Um, in my followers, I don't want them thinking when I come with a sale, once every two months, they're like, Oh, now you're trying to sell me. I want it to be expected that I'm a business and I'm going to give you cool stuff for free. And I'm also going to try to sell you things. And that's perfectly okay. You're like we can respect each other in that regard, which is why I will put a wait list. If I'm not even selling anything, I'll have a wait list link for it in that email. And so I'll have I'll telephone story. I'll teach him something. And I'll say, if you want to learn more is a wait list. And I find that to be a structure that I use in 99% of my emails. Speaker 3: 45:32 I like that. Yeah. And then that'll give you like super targeted people that are interested in that thing. Cause they're g up to say, Hey, let me know when this thing's available. Cause I might buy it. Right. 45:42 Exactly. Especially as a freelancer, it's really good because it, it flips the game on its head. And suddenly I'm not the one looking for clients if I need work. Um, and I don't, but if I do this, this list of people who are there waiting for me and it's always growing, cause every day, you know, they get, there's another invitation to it. And if I need work, I just hit up that list and say, I've got a spot, you know, first one to get back to me, gets it. So it really flips the game on its head. When you have a waitlist, you become the in demand commodity. You're not chasing people, they're coming to you. And that's a really powerful strategy for your brand to be high status. Speaker 3: 46:23 Yeah, no, I, I love that. And uh, I mean, heck even if it's a product that you're going to be launching, whether it's digital or physical to have a waitlist for that thing and then to have a group of people that raise their hand ahead of time, um, I think that's really, really powerful. So that's cool. So you have here also, I wanted to touch on this, the one email, your list will open more than any other and why most people get it wrong. Let's talk about that. 46:45 Yeah. And that, um, that is the welcome email that people get when they are, when they're on your list, you will get the highest open rates from that email ever. And yet most people screw it up so badly because it's just like, hi, I'm Daniel. Thank you for ing my list from now on, you know, you can expect to receive him from me once a week, by the way, please white list, this email address. I can't wait to get in touch with you. Every person's welcome email on the planet basically is like them, if they have one that's even if to done, right, right. You know, you sign up and it's like crickets. Um, yeah. And so I, I think what you really need to do there is give that email, that email needs to have a huge hit of personality. Um, and obviously you're going to deliver your opt in magnet. 47:35 Um, usually that will happen in that same email, but you need to give them a huge dose of personality or your brand. Um, I think brands are better when they are tied more closely to a person. You know, I agree if you can't do that then, or at least that's right. Exactly. Exactly. Um, and so you need to lace that email with that. So my, my welcome email is I looked at what other copywriters did because that's my industry copywriters. I looked at what they did and they all did a similar sort of thing. I mean, they're better than average cause they're copywriters, but it was still, you know, um, here's what you can expect from me. All this really cool stuff you're going to get was kind of boring. So I wanted to shake things up. So, I mean, it's my thing. When you opt in, it's sort of this crazy story about you get kidnapped. 48:26 It's a joke, it's a joke, but I've kidnapped you. And you know, I'm going to be forcing you to read my emails sort of. And I have so many people write back to me and say that that was the craziest welcome email I've ever read. And so I'm not suggesting that you kidnap your customers in your first email, but what I am saying is take a look at what, what are the people in your space doing and how can you be totally different to them? And how can you show people, make them feel that they know you after one email, tell a really personal story or, you know, use language that you would only use with your, you know, be really informal, um, do something that is going to show them who you are and make them think this person's really different. Uh, I think that's a real wasted opportunity for most brands. So Speaker 3: 49:13 Let me ask you this because, uh, you know, I, I hear both sides of it and I understand like where this comes from, but we want to show people who you are like, who like what we stand for, right? Like I'm the ultimate best fishermen. And that's all I think about every single day and Oh my gosh, I just love doing it. And Hey, if you're like me, you know, jump on my email list and get the five tips. Right. Whatever. So that, that's where they're at. But if, if I come on my or come in my, in my first email and I just talk about my entire story, it's not really about them. So how much of it is taking your story and in the way that I like to do it, and it's taken years to figure this out, it's like, how do I tell my story without saying I, and to where I can make them start almost seeming as though it's really them. Right. And it's where it's about them. You're there they're reading because they want something. Right. How do you be relatable to them with your story? 50:15 That's a great question. I just want to back up and clarify that when I say, um, put your personality into it. I don't mean tell your story. I'm not saying the first email should be, here's my backstory. I'm I'm saying you can still do that thing of here's what you have, what you can expect. And it's good with a welcome email. You should set expectations. Here's what I'm going to send you is when I'm telling them there's some great stuff coming. I just mean, use your voice, use your personality. I reviewed copy for one guy the other day who had this email. And he was like, um, today is the freaking best day of my life. Do you know why? Because, and then he had like a little merge tag to put your name in there because freaking star bulk is on my list and he is kick ass name, taken guy. 51:03 It was just really fun. Like it had all this personality in it. Right? So that's what I mean more than tell your story, but what you're asking about, you know, how do I, how do I make it relevant to them? I actually would argue that, um, people want to hear from you as well as a person and that a lot of people, they can focus too much on this hole. You can go too far in the pendulum of it's making about the reader and you don't put any personality into it anymore. And they don't realize who they're talking to. I mean, it's, it's a really useful thing to think that you're actually writing to a friend. And so you wouldn't just, unless you're a very egotistical person, you wouldn't just say [inaudible], but at the same time, you wouldn't be creepy and just constantly ask them questions or talk about them. 51:52 You know, it you'd have this natural exchange, like you're actually chatting to a friend. And so what I said before about imagining one person like Dave, on your list, it's a really useful thing to do actually think. And I don't even mean imagine an avatar. I mean, think of a real person that you actually know, who's on your list, who typifies the kind of customer you want and actually write an email, like you're writing to them and think about what he wants to know. What does he want to hear from you? What's he interested in, but then still tell him your stories. So if you're telling your stories that are on topics that are interesting to him, you hit both of those. 52:30 Yeah. I agree with you. And there is, there's a little bit of a balance there, but if you can incorporate, and I've done that and where people say, I love that you share stories about your kids or that you share stories about, you know, that you went to Yankee stadium with your dad, but my whole email isn't that it's right. It's like, that's what I was doing. And it's almost like, then you're turning it into why, why am I even telling you that? Right? Like, like if I was telling a friend, I was like, Hey, Jimmy, uh, you know, I went to a ball game with my dad this weekend. It was an awesome time while I was there. I was thinking, I'll you? Because there was this whole crowd of like, you know, these people here. And I was thinking to myself, I've got an email list this size, right? Like it's crazy. Right. And so I took that story woven into an email list. And now I can tell you like the power of an email list. If you got, if you've got 60,000 people on an email list, you fill the stadium, right. It's like, that's pretty crazy. Think about that when you send your email and then we can turn it into an email lesson, um, such as what you just did. That 53:26 Was exactly, um, you know, I was talking before about how I had that three bond structure. And that is exactly what I do, which is sort of tell the story, pivot it to a lesson, which you were there. Your lesson was like an email list could fill this stadium. And then I would pivot to what I want you to do now, click this or read more or whatever. So totally agree with you. 53:46 It's funny how after you get past, like the thinking it through all the time, it just becomes natural on how you do it. Um, but it does, it takes time, right? It's like you have to work, you have to work at it. But the best way to work at it is to actually start writing emails to your 54:00 Exactly. Absolutely. I, I, I wasn't doing it. Like I said, I used to just work for clients. I used to do client work. I didn't send my own emails. So like the doctor who doesn't take his own medicine, I only did that earlier this year. So, um, I know that it was like, I know I should email people, but I'm really busy. Um, and getting into the habit, it was like, you know, starting to exercise, it was like, this really sucks the first year. But after that, you know, I've emailed my list every day for the last five or six months. Um, and you, you get into the swing of it and eventually it can be a really enjoyable thing because you, you send out these things to your list and they come back to you and there's a bit of . You get to know them. They say that was a great email. You 6p1t36